"Normalizing" the Aspergers child or adult - more harm than good?

[Trakar]

I suppose. Except...

I completely disagree with TShaitanaku that "normalizing" Aspies is about "learning how to deal with the distress that is a normal part of everyday life". Assuming that's what he is saying...

I'm actually talking about "normals." A large part of "normal" life is about "learning how to deal with the distress that is a normal part of everyday life". To integrate into "normal" society all of us have to learn the same adaptations.

 

[gnome]

I would argue that school living creates enough such challenges without placing someone into that situation intentionally to cause that stress. While not overly softening the world for children is good, making it artificially difficult doesn't really have a marginal benefit that I perceive.

 

[Mark6]

Basketball itself likely did not, being forced to deal with situations where we aren't skilled or even competent in the areas where we are expected to perform, however, is a common occurrence in everyday life and work. Learning how to deal with those types of situations is very important, despite being uncomfortable and distressing to everyone regardless of "normality."

Cannot speak for OP, but in my case that was NOT the stated goal of "normalizing". The stated goal was to make situations such as basketball team comfortable and not distressing to me. And in light of that goal, "normalizing" was a complete fail. If anything, I learned how to avoid uncomfortable and distressing situations.

 

[Dancing David]

Yes.

Helping kids (and adults) learn how to deal with "normals" is one thing. Forcing them into activities that cause them nothing but distress is another.

I agree, you should never force people to do things to compensate for a perceived issue, the coping skills should be encouraged. Just forcing someone into a social situation, say the play, is bogus. Usually the kids on the spectrum, who I work with some and my wife works with a lot, need skills training.

But they don't excatly get anxiety in social situations, they more often get flooded by a variety of things or just plain old distracted by some perseverating on a particular stimuli.

The bigger issue is the inability to interpret social cues, and in schools the rigid thinking can be a real challenge. If that students says they need to have that certain pencil, they really do, or they will perseverate until they have it.

The coping skills should be trained and taught but bogus emersion therapy is bogus. mainstreaming is about inclusion in the class room, not that wierd stuff.

 

[Trakar]

I like the idea of looking at it like someone who has to learn what comes naturally to others.

Except for the very few and far between, I don't think much of anything comes "naturally" to anyone. Some may make it look easy, but there is usually a lot of pain, frustration, and hard, repetitious practice, and boring work hiding behind the scenes.

 

[PixyMisa]

Basketball itself likely did not, being forced to deal with situations where we aren't skilled or even competent in the areas where we are expected to perform, however, is a common occurrence in everyday life and work. Learning how to deal with those types of situations is very important, despite being uncomfortable and distressing to everyone regardless of "normality."

So, let's give swimming lessons to quadriplegics, that'll help.

 

[Pup]

I would argue that school living creates enough such challenges without placing someone into that situation intentionally to cause that stress. While not overly softening the world for children is good, making it artificially difficult doesn't really have a marginal benefit that I perceive.

^This.

Adults have the freedom to choose activities and situations that make the most of their interests and minimize their discomfort, within the basic constraints of society and practicality.

I see no reason that we should make children's lives harder than adults' lives.

 

[Dancing David]

Except for the very few and far between, I don't think much of anything comes "naturally" to anyone. Some may make it look easy, but there is usually a lot of pain, frustration, and hard, repetitious practice, and boring work hiding behind the scenes.

Well in the case of autism it is very much something that comes more easily to others, social cues. The wide variety of gestures, facial expressions, gestures, postures, tones, rate of speach and inflections thatw e use to communicate aside the verbal information is a mystery for most of them.

Now is aspergers it is a little less severe but the inability to do so 'naturally' is still a huge barrier. They are often a mystery to their peers for this reason, but encouragement and skills training goes a long way.

Now in the more severe end of the autism spectrum, early intervention in early childhood is essential to help them to focus on humans, pay attention to gross cuing and develop speech.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I'm actually talking about "normals." A large part of "normal" life is about "learning how to deal with the distress that is a normal part of everyday life". To integrate into "normal" society all of us have to learn the same adaptations.

I'm advocating "developing social systems and other solutions that reduce distress in everyday life" over "learn to live with it, dumbo", but each to his own...

 

[jiggeryqua]

I see no reason that we should make children's lives harder than adults' lives.

I see no reason we shouldn't.

Not saying we should, I just find the mythicalisation (a perfectly cromulent word!) of 'childhood' to be largely woo. In some respects, 'learning everything' is harder than 'dealing with more of the same', and 'depending on a random other or others' is harder than 'having a greater measure of control over your own life', so children's lives are already harder than adults'.

 

[temporalillusion]

Sounds like you are doing exactly right thing to do. Aspies CAN learn social skills, but they have to be taught the way neurotypicals do not -- they absorb them more or less through peer example.

That's what we eventually figured out through both trial and error, and through input from our psychologist.

My kid learns far better through social stories and through contrived circumstances where he can practice the appropriate responses without being in an emotionally charged situation.. basically learning it through repetition and "laying down the neural pathways" as the psychologist puts it. So when the situation is more real and emotionally charged (either through conflict, or fun, or whatever), he's more likely to behave as was practiced.

We were going crazy previously trying to teach him as most parents teach their kids and getting nowhere.

 

[Pup]

Originally Posted by Pup
I see no reason that we should make children's lives harder than adults' lives.

I see no reason we shouldn't.


Not saying we should, I just find the mythicalisation (a perfectly cromulent word!) of 'childhood' to be largely woo. In some respects, 'learning everything' is harder than 'dealing with more of the same', and 'depending on a random other or others' is harder than 'having a greater measure of control over your own life', so children's lives are already harder than adults'.

Well, yes, that's my point. Children's lives are already harder than adults for those reasons. Therefore, I see no reason to make them even harder, by requiring children to do things that they have no aptitude nor interest in, have an extreme dislike for, and that aren't necessary as adults, like, depending on the child: sing, perform, play team sports, socialize with people they dislike, etc.

 

[Complexity]

I agree with the OP.

I disagree with the poster whose posts I no longer see except when someone quotes them.

I don't think that Asperger's is a disease, I think that it is an atypical brain organization that can be extremely beneficial, extremely debilitating, or (usually) somewhere in between. I've been reading posts by many with Asperger's whose lives are far less joyful and successful than mine.

Several of the best parts of me are due, I think, to my having Asperger's, but much of my life has been... suboptimal, and parts have been hellish. I don't think Asperger's is a disease to be cured but rather a syndrome to be understood and, for those whose lives are damaged by it, remedied.

Rather than speak of 'symptoms', I like to speak of 'traits', for it isn't always obvious whether a trait is beneficial or detrimental, desirable or not.

Many of the times that having Asperger's has interferred with happiness, it was due to my being coerced into trying to fit in and be like others when that wasn't comfortable (or seemingly possible) for me. Other sources of unhappiness have been due to Asperger's-comorbid disorders such as OCD, general anxiety disorder, and depression.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Well, yes, that's my point. Children's lives are already harder than adults for those reasons. Therefore, I see no reason to make them even harder, by requiring children to do things that they have no aptitude nor interest in, have an extreme dislike for, and that aren't necessary as adults, like, depending on the child: sing, perform, play team sports, socialize with people they dislike, etc.

Fair point. The best arguments are between two people who are trying to find out what it is they do agree on.

 

[Delvo]

I am tired of various misunderstandings about this condition. The most alarming of them all is that we should be "normalized" and this can be achieved by forcing us into social situations in which we feel very uncomfortable...

I feel it is usually wrong to force children with Aspergers, autism or "loner" tendencies to socialize. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe excessively shy children or children with no friends shouldn't be helped...

I believe that forced socialization of people like me mostly backfires.

I don't know what forced experiences you're talking about. Is this just the stuff other kids do, or were you put through some kind of additional stuff that most weren't, in an attempt to treat your "problem"? If the latter, then I can't comment on whether that kind of treatment is a mistake because I've never even heard of it, much less gotten any details about it. But if it's the former, then it wasn't intended to fix a problem, it was just standard procedure, just like for everyone else. And in that case, your issue with it is that some kind of special exceptions/exemptions should be made for kids like you but weren't; that kids like you should be let out of doing what everybody else does. But if that's what you want or recommend, it doesn't fit together with your assertion that there's nothing wrong with having your "traits". Things that aren't a problem don't need special treatment to solve them.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I don't know what forced experiences you're talking about. Is this just the stuff other kids do, or were you put through some kind of additional stuff that most weren't, in an attempt to treat your "problem"? If the latter, then I can't comment on whether that kind of treatment is a mistake because I've never even heard of it, much less gotten any details about it. But if it's the former, then it wasn't intended to fix a problem, it was just standard procedure, just like for everyone else. And in that case, your issue with it is that some kind of special exceptions/exemptions should be made for kids like you but weren't; that kids like you should be let out of doing what everybody else does. But if that's what you want or recommend, it doesn't fit together with your assertion that there's nothing wrong with having your "traits". Things that aren't a problem don't need special treatment to solve them.

Women need special different treatment. Pregnancy, menstruation & whatnot. Whatever the PC crowd say, being a woman is different from being a man. Like being black is different from being white, or gay different from straight, or paraplegic different from being able-bodied. Which of those "traits" are a problem?

 

[Trakar]

I'm advocating "developing social systems and other solutions that reduce distress in everyday life" over "learn to live with it, dumbo", but each to his own...

Your characterization of my comments is at best, a mischaracterization, and not at all what I stated or intended, but I'm quite sure that you are probably aware of that already.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Your characterization of my comments is at best, a mischaracterization, and not at all what I stated or intended, but I'm quite sure that you are probably aware of that already.

Oh, I'll concede that I'm applying a moderate amount of provocative exaggeration in my paraphrasing, but I'm building on a solid foundation. Let's talk about the foundation.

 

[Trakar]

Well in the case of autism it is very much something that comes more easily to others, social cues. The wide variety of gestures, facial expressions, gestures, postures, tones, rate of speach and inflections thatw e use to communicate aside the verbal information is a mystery for most of them.

Now is aspergers it is a little less severe but the inability to do so 'naturally' is still a huge barrier. They are often a mystery to their peers for this reason, but encouragement and skills training goes a long way.

Now in the more severe end of the autism spectrum, early intervention in early childhood is essential to help them to focus on humans, pay attention to gross cuing and develop speech.

I certainly did not and do not mean to imply that there is no distinguishable difference between those diagnosed with learning and social adaptation issues and people not diaganosed that way. Perhaps I am improperly extrapolating from my own, and the related experiences of many friends and acquaintances, but I don't know anyone who intuitively/naturally "gets these things," it only comes through a lot of embarassing, intimidating and distressing exprience of doing and learning. Generally this starts quite young and extends into and through early adulthood.

I'm sure there are conditions that complicate this process, but exposure to the situation and processes would seem an essential part of learning to cope and deal with such situations, regardless of how uncomfortable or reluctant one is to be in such situations (and my point was, that most everyone goes through these same feelings and distresses regardless of whether or not they have been diagnosed with these problems). The goal, afterall, is not for everyone to become gregarious social wizards, but merely to get people to the point where they can cope with and handle everyday situations with relative aplomb, and part of that involves becoming desensitzed to the situations.

 

[Zelenius]

Out of curiousity, what do you do for exercise? I swim and scuba dive; I used to do martial arts before a knee injury made it impossible. (And I might add, my father used to denigrate my interest in martial arts and useless and insular -- unlike basketball )

I am an avid joggler(juggling while running) and sometimes just plain running. I do this almost every day, usually covering 35 to 40 miles a week. Occasionally I'll practice martial arts or do a lot of rope jumping. My father used to denigrate everything about me.

I also use resistance bands for strength training about twice a week, since they are cheaper than weights and more portable. Still, I'm hardly a jock(I look more like a twerpy geek with a bit of pronounced muscle) and I don't think I need to explain why I never go to gyms.