Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RandyN]

It isn't difficult to figure out how Guede came to leave his footprint on the bathmat;

He inflicted the knife wounds while standing over Meredith, probably straddling her, after she had dropped or been forced on to her hands and knees (as per Hendry).

She then collapsed into a completely prone position, but with her remaining strength she grabbed and held tightly onto Guede's right shin for several seconds before he could extricate himself, her neck pressing against it and the arterial wound soaking, in fact practically saturating his pant leg in blood.

Think about it; it’s actually hard to imagine her NOT doing this as he stood over her, it would be what anyone would instinctively do in such circumstances - an attempt both to defend against further blows and a desperate need to physically cling to another living soul (even the attacker himself) as her life-blood literally ebbed.

Guede had no choice but to rinse the fabric before he left the flat because it would have been smearing on his WHITE Nike trainer, which even at night would have been extremely conspicuous (and would have drawn any observer’s eye to the copious amount of blood on the fabric itself).

However, having placed his shin and foot in the bidet or shower, he inevitably ended up with bloody water covering his bare foot and made the print when he set it down on the mat, probably as he rinsed his shoe (which he might have removed in Meredith’s room and carried to the bathroom, reaching it before any blood reached the sole of his bare foot, perhaps having turned or rolled up the hem of his jeans).

Incidentally, several, including myself, have tried to point out that it’s obvious that only Guede’s forefoot is discernable in the print, the rest is obscured by soaking from the hem of his jeans.

I always thought this as well... I think in fact his shoe filled with the blood as well. I think the partial print was due to towels on the floor. Which is also the reason the floor stayed clean in the bathroom for the most part. The towels were then taken into the murder room "to save" noooo to wipe the towels around in fresh blood to cover his tracks as it were.

 

[LondonJohn]

Another good point, and so it is:

Yes. And let's not forget at this point a photograph of Filomena's window and the porch area taken at night (by a crime tourist), which was digitally altered to lighten it before being presented as proof of the light levels on Filomena's window area. Wonder who took that photo and altered its brightness.......? Could it be the same person who also claimed (repeatedly) here that his/her photos of the disco buses were taken on Monday 1st November 2010, when in fact they were taken on Saturday 30th October 2010?

By the way, the civil disobedience in London is being dramatically exaggerated for effect by the media. I live in West-Central London, and I have neither seen nor heard a single problem with my own eyes over the past few days (although I happen to know someone who was burned out from her flat in Ealing last night ). It's worth remembering that Greater London (i.e. not even including the outer suburbs) is around 600 square miles in area, with around 8 million inhabitants. The trouble has taken place in probably around 20 square miles (maximum) of those 600, and probably only around 1,000 people maximum (out of 8 million) have been actively committing criminal acts. Context is everything......

 

[Kestrel]

Yes. And let's not forget at this point a photograph of Filomena's window and the porch area taken at night (by a crime tourist), which was digitally altered to lighten it before being presented as proof of the light levels on Filomena's window area. Wonder who took that photo and altered its brightness.......? Could it be the same person who also claimed (repeatedly) here that his/her photos of the disco buses were taken on Monday 1st November 2010, when in fact they were taken on Saturday 30th October 2010?

Photo of the cottage showing the lighting conditions at night. Note the shadow near the front door. Filomena's window is around the corner on the left.

 

[LondonJohn]

Browsing back through SomeAlibi's posts here (his staunch defence of Curatolo at the latter end of 2010 is well worth reading in the light of what we now know), I came across something that perplexed me. I seem to recall someone called "SomeAlibi" claiming on .org that (s)he had threatened to write to Pepperdine about Steve Moore, but that (s)he had never actually sent that letter (or any sort of written communication). Let me see if I can find the quote.....

Ah yes! Here it is, from Wednesday July 13th 2011 (my bolding):

I certainly never wrote to Pepperdine (and they know I didn't as that would have come out in discovery in the legal proceedings, so lets be done with that one as a matter of record), so for whatever frot of righteousness they get themselves into, debate and advocacy was the only possible context then, during and since. Obvious and inarguable.

Now, I'm finding it hard to reconcile this very definitive statement with that made by a JREF poster also with the username "SomeAlibi", which was posted here on 18th December 2010 (again, my bolding):

I contacted Pepperdine to provide them all of the online content of Steve Moore's interviews etc to save them time. Since Steve stands by them, I believe you couldn't object to that. I also pointed out the factual errors in them. After that I've left it. Pepperdine's lawyers are in house and they are rather bright. They're going to do Steve for breach of contract, not for anything to do with this case.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6672898#post6672898


Perhaps if these two "SomeAlibi"s are one and the same, (s)he might be able to let us know which one is the truth and which one is a lie. I'd certainly be interested to know which is which.

 

[Matthew Best]

He lied? I believe he must be a murderer, then.

 

[benno]

What are the chances of a dismissal vs. aquital?

 

[LondonJohn]

What are the chances of a dismissal vs. aquital?

Personally, my opinion is this: If I understand the Italian criminal justice process reasonably correctly, I think there's very little chance of a dismissal in the appeal. This is because the guilty verdicts in the first trial pretty much demand that the appeal trial is seen through to its conclusion (in very many ways, the first trial can be redefined as the "preliminary" trial, with the first appeal trial redesignated as the "main" trial).

In the first trial, the defence asked for a dismissal based on lack of sufficient evidence, but that was refused by Massei. I don't think that Hellmann's court can credibly grant a motion for dismissal, even if one was to be brought by either defence team. I think it's incumbent upon Hellmann to lead his court through a full and proper trial process before arriving at a verdict.

And I think that's as it should be. The appeal court should look at the totality of the evidence (or lack of it, in this case), and it should hear all the various parties' arguments based on that evidence. Only then will it be able to reach a valid and defensible verdict. Of course, I strongly believe there is only one possible verdict: acquittals for both Knox and Sollecito. But I think it's virtually inevitable that we (and they - unfortunately for them) will have to wait until October (or even early November) to hear Hellmann pronounce the verdicts.

 

[LondonJohn]

A note on the way in which the police discovered Guede's presence at the murder scene, and the story behind the Skype call:

The police lifted a number of latent and finger/hand prints from the cottage in the days following the murder. They had reference prints from Meredith, Knox, Sollecito, Filomena, Laura and Giacomo Silenzi (Meredith's Italian boyfriend).

Most of the prints recovered from the cottage could be easily and immediately matched to one of the reference prints, but there were fourteen unidentified prints. These prints were then compared to local and national databases. One of them - a hand print on the pillow underneath Meredith's body, made in Meredith's blood - came back as a positive match to Guede. Guede's prints were on the immigration database owing to it being part of his application for a residents' permit.

This identification to Guede was apparently made on 16th November 2007. It was basic police work, requiring no more skill or judgement than punching a few buttons on a computer to request a comparative analysis between the unknown prints and the various databases of reference prints. It also, mercifully, didn't involve Ms Stefanoni at any stage of the collection or testing process. It appears that the fingerprint unit of the Scientific police at least knew how to do their job properly.

Guede's friend did not come to the police's attention through any sort of police savvy or dogged detective work. Instead, what apparently happened was this: On 17th November (the day after the police publicly announced they were looking for Guede), Giuseppe Castellini - the Editor in Chief of Umbria's largest daily newspaper, Giornale dell'Umbria - called Mignini to tell him that the paper had been given an anonymous telephone tip-off that Guede was on the run, and that the informant knew roughly where he (Guede) was. It was Giornale dell'Umbria's consequent attempts to identify this anonymous informant that led them firstly to Gabriele Mancini (Guede's former foster brother), and then to Giacomo Benedetti - a schoolmate of Guede's who had remained a close friend. Benedetti was the anonymous informant

Thus, it was the newspaper that brought Benedetti to the attention of the police and prosecutors. The police brought both Benedetti and Mancini in for questioning, and it was then that Benedetti told the police that he'd been having Skype conversations with Guede. At that point, the police decided to get Benedetti to set up a Skype call between himself and Guede, so that the police could try and find out a) where Guede actually was, and b) what he might be saying about the murder.

So, in short, the police identified Guede as one of those present at the murder through very basic police work - work which thankfully was competently carried out. But the Benedetti link was not found by the police: it was handed to them by a newspaper.

 

[Paninaro]

What about the "no blood on the duvet"-argument raised by Maundy Gregory? Does this point to the possible guilt of Knox and Sollecito, because it's unlikely Guede hung around long enough for the blood to dry?

T

he body was found covered by a duvet, but blood from the body does not appear to have transferred to any great extent to the fabric of the duvet. This suggests that the blood had substantially dried before the body was covered. Our burglar must have hung around quite a while.

The defence argument is that Kercher must have been sexually assaulted after she was stabbed. That would make the motive for the burglary an especially deranged sex attack. Such things are not unheard of, but why would such a burglar waste time rifling through clothes in the neighbouring bedroom (which is what appears to have taken place)? And how does it explain the duvet?

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/knoxsollecito-how-to-spot-a-fake-burglary/

 

[Draca]

blood stains on duvet show movement

What about the "no blood on the duvet"-argument raised by Maundy Gregory? Does this point to the possible guilt of Knox and Sollecito, because it's unlikely Guede hung around long enough for the blood to dry?

T

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/knoxsollecito-how-to-spot-a-fake-burglary/

This is one reason I don't care for that blog. It is not accurate. There have been photos available that show the duvet was bloody for ages. There is a great deal of blood on the duvet and the butterfly pattern shows it was not only tossed over MK while she was still bleeding but it was moved more than once. The pattern shows stains that would have come from her bleeding neck in three different places in a row of movement.

I don't know why the duvet was moved after being placed over her. Perhaps this was movement made while covering MK with it, making slight adjustments to cover her fully. In that case the smallest stain would have touched her bleeding neck first and then the second and then the final largest stain in the final position the duvet was left to cover her.


http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/duvet.html

 

[Antony]

Yes. And let's not forget at this point a photograph of Filomena's window and the porch area taken at night (by a crime tourist), which was digitally altered to lighten it before being presented as proof of the light levels on Filomena's window area. Wonder who took that photo and altered its brightness.......? Could it be the same person who also claimed (repeatedly) here that his/her photos of the disco buses were taken on Monday 1st November 2010, when in fact they were taken on Saturday 30th October 2010?

ISTR that he posted a flash picture of the wall with Filomena's window (so unnaturally bright), along with a digitally-dimmed (not lightened) picture of the front balcony, and claimed they represented the respective lighting levels at the time of the murder.

 

[Draca]

Balcony Nov 14, 2007

Nov 14,2007

 

[komponisto]

...same time next week for the Hellmann report?

Sounds like a plan.

 

[snook1]

But I think it's virtually inevitable that we (and they - unfortunately for them) will have to wait until October (or even early November) to hear Hellmann pronounce the verdicts.

It could take that long? November?

How many court dates are there? I thought that there is only one week delay or two at most.

Next one is on September 5th and then, according to Hellmann, will be hearings everyday, just to make sure the DNA report issues are solved. How long can it take? 3,4 days? Then what? Closing arguments?

Despite your predictions, is there any chance for a verdict in early October?

 

[JREF2010]

A note on the way in which the police discovered Guede's presence at the murder scene, and the story behind the Skype call:

The police lifted a number of latent and finger/hand prints from the cottage in the days following the murder. They had reference prints from Meredith, Knox, Sollecito, Filomena, Laura and Giacomo Silenzi (Meredith's Italian boyfriend).

Most of the prints recovered from the cottage could be easily and immediately matched to one of the reference prints, but there were fourteen unidentified prints. These prints were then compared to local and national databases. One of them - a hand print on the pillow underneath Meredith's body, made in Meredith's blood - came back as a positive match to Guede. Guede's prints were on the immigration database owing to it being part of his application for a residents' permit.

This identification to Guede was apparently made on 16th November 2007. It was basic police work, requiring no more skill or judgement than punching a few buttons on a computer to request a comparative analysis between the unknown prints and the various databases of reference prints. It also, mercifully, didn't involve Ms Stefanoni at any stage of the collection or testing process. It appears that the fingerprint unit of the Scientific police at least knew how to do their job properly.

Guede's friend did not come to the police's attention through any sort of police savvy or dogged detective work. Instead, what apparently happened was this: On 17th November (the day after the police publicly announced they were looking for Guede), Giuseppe Castellini - the Editor in Chief of Umbria's largest daily newspaper, Giornale dell'Umbria - called Mignini to tell him that the paper had been given an anonymous telephone tip-off that Guede was on the run, and that the informant knew roughly where he (Guede) was. It was Giornale dell'Umbria's consequent attempts to identify this anonymous informant that led them firstly to Gabriele Mancini (Guede's former foster brother), and then to Giacomo Benedetti - a schoolmate of Guede's who had remained a close friend. Benedetti was the anonymous informant

Thus, it was the newspaper that brought Benedetti to the attention of the police and prosecutors. The police brought both Benedetti and Mancini in for questioning, and it was then that Benedetti told the police that he'd been having Skype conversations with Guede. At that point, the police decided to get Benedetti to set up a Skype call between himself and Guede, so that the police could try and find out a) where Guede actually was, and b) what he might be saying about the murder.

So, in short, the police identified Guede as one of those present at the murder through very basic police work - work which thankfully was competently carried out. But the Benedetti link was not found by the police: it was handed to them by a newspaper.

thats really interesting. so there was another squad that did the fingerprint work. and I was wrong, in thinking , the fingerprint came from his botched burglary in Milan.

 

[pilot padron]

Browsing back through SomeAlibi's posts here (his staunch defence of Curatolo at the latter end of 2010 is well worth reading in the light of what we now know), I came across something that perplexed me. I seem to recall someone called "SomeAlibi" claiming on .org that (s)he had threatened to write to Pepperdine about Steve Moore, but that (s)he had never actually sent that letter (or any sort of written communication). Let me see if I can find the quote.....

Ah yes! Here it is, from Wednesday July 13th 2011 (my bolding):




Now, I'm finding it hard to reconcile this very definitive statement with that made by a JREF poster also with the username "SomeAlibi", which was posted here on 18th December 2010 (again, my bolding):



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6672898#post6672898


Perhaps if these two "SomeAlibi"s are one and the same, (s)he might be able to let us know which one is the truth and which one is a lie. I'd certainly be interested to know which is which.

HUH ??

Other than an argument that seems like little other than a strange obsession (fetish) with a poster who proved himself to be a master of masters when decimating your past arguments here, and has long since made it quite clear that he would not be posting here again, what really is the significance of you knowing "which is which" ??

And, BTW, I'd be interested to know that if PMF is such a horrible, hate filled place as endlessly argued here...
Why would you squander so much time scouring the past months of what Some Alibi from that PMF 'hate site' wrote about this miniscule minute of nothingness concerning unrelated items of Curatolo, Pepperdine et al.

And (oh dear) you actually went all the way back to research what he wrote here in 2010...
But why, pray tell, and what pray tell, does that shocking depth of obsessive interest in Some Alibi in your argument add to the topic here.

Are not we supposed to pile on, tag team, ridicule, and challenge any stray opposition poster who dares show up here that he must argue only our favorite ToD, or other items *we* want ??

Might not the obviously extensive research about Some Alibi evident in your above argument be better directed to being a tad more accurate about details like what footwear Meredith was wearing when murdered by Knox, Sollecito, and Guede ?

 

[snook1]

Stint, when you're gonna answer the questions asked to you many many times in the recent past?

Will you, ever?

 

[LondonJohn]

HUH ??

Other than an argument that seems like little other than a strange obsession (fetish) with a poster who proved himself to be a master of masters when decimating your past arguments here, and has long since made it quite clear that he would not be posting here again, what really is the significance of you knowing "which is which" ??

And, BTW, I'd be interested to know that if PMF is such a horrible, hate filled place as endlessly argued here...
Why would you squander so much time scouring the past months of what Some Alibi from that PMF 'hate site' wrote about this miniscule minute of nothingness concerning unrelated items of Curatolo, Pepperdine et al.

And (oh dear) you actually went all the way back to research what he wrote here in 2010...
But why, pray tell, and what pray tell, does that shocking depth of obsessive interest in Some Alibi in your argument add to the topic here.

Are not we supposed to pile on, tag team, ridicule, and challenge any stray opposition poster who dares show up here that he must argue only our favorite ToD, or other items *we* want ??

Might not the obviously extensive research about Some Alibi evident in your above argument be better directed to being a tad more accurate about details like what footwear Meredith was wearing when murdered by Knox, Sollecito, and Guede ?

Well, I know what footwear Meredith was wearing when she was confronted by Guede. And yes, I quickly and readily agreed that I'd made an error (which, by the way, was a slip rather than a gap in knowledge - I knew Meredith was wearing trainers rather than boots, but just had a mental lapse in mid-post). You see, when one actually posts mainly about issues directly related to the case, one occasionally makes small slips such as the one I made.

The rest of your post is too puerile and poorly-argued to merit any sort of response. But maybe you can ask stint7 to ask SomeAlibi why he lied about his correspondence with Pepperdine in one of the two posts I referred to - and which of the two posts was the lie. And after you've done that, per haps you'd be so very kind as to address some of the questions that I and others have gently pushed in your direction over the past week. I assume you have an interest in discussing the case at some point? Or is that an incorrect assumption?

 

[LondonJohn]

thats really interesting. so there was another squad that did the fingerprint work. and I was wrong, in thinking , the fingerprint came from his botched burglary in Milan.

Oh, I think the Milan police didn't even book him in at the station - they merrily sent him on his way back towards Perugia with a stolen laptop, a woman's watch and a small hammer in his bag. Outstanding work!

 

[RWVBWL]

Black or White?

<snip>
Might not the obviously extensive research about Some Alibi evident in your above argument be better directed to being a tad more accurate about details like what footwear Meredith was wearing when murdered by Knox, Sollecito, and Guede ?

Hi there PilotPadron,
Let's talk about this case we are fascinated by, ok?

Cool.

I was the one who corrected LondonJohn's minor mistake,
-(just to make sure that others also do not make the same mistake, not to belittle him over a slight error),
about the fact that Miss Kercher was wearing red and white Puma sneakers when she was attacked,
so maybe you, PilotPadron, can help me figure something out.

I'm wondering if the Nike Outbreak 2 sneakers that Rudy Guede was wearing the night Miss Kercher was stabbed to her her death were of the limited edition style and was that color black, or were they white Outbreak 2 sneakers as Supernaut mentioned earlier today?

A reply would be
RW