Why not war against Islam?

[A'isha]

OK, show me.

http://www.fstdt.com/

Here's a charming Christian saying that gays used to be stoned to death because God hated them, and if you don't hate them too then you're disobeying God. And you don't want to disobey God, do you?

Here's another that's even more direct.

Here's someone saying people who don't believe in God should be killed.

Here's someone saying that the women marching in the SlutWalk protests should be raped. Bonus: he also says to the person he's responding to that that person's wife is marching, she should be raped as well.

If you want more, feel free to click the link above. And don't worry, that site also collects the stupid and horrible things said by Muslim fundamentalists as well. It's much more even-handed in its condemnation than you are, in that regard.

But what is YOUR point that you can say similar things about christianity? Does this make Islam good?

No, it simply makes Islam like most religions (and like all the major ones).

 

[citizenzen]

... the web master had to shut down because of the rage I and my cousin sturred up just by asking questions.

Considering the tone you take in this forum, I have a hard time believing you were "just asking question."

That sure would be quite a change of pace for you.

 

[A'isha]

Good. Then we agree that my posts are a less bogus representation of my posts than your re-statements of my posts.

No, we don't.

None of my criticisms were even remotely related to any of the meaningless, tedious details of a belief system of which I may not know each and every tedious detail - which is impossible in any case, since various believers believe differently on various tedious details. So, once again, your re-statement of my statement is bogus.

No, your criticisms were made from a position of ignorance regarding pretty much everything you were attempting to "criticize".

Well, on further reflection, you're technically correct that "[n]one of [your] criticisms were even remotely related to any of the meaningless, tedious details of a belief system of which [you] may not know each and every tedious detail", but that's because you actually didn't offer anything in the way of criticism. Your posts were basically contentless one- or two-liners that boiled down to a series of "me too!" replies to people like Virus and armageddonman.

In fact, the one time I attempted to engage you regarding an actual criticism posted by one of the people I named above, you flat-out refused.

 

[Bill Thompson]

There are clear and obvious policies and practices of the Mormon church that has been racist. They don't practice it anymore. Ah, but there is the intolerance towards gays. That is pretty bad. I guess if I was gay i would be more active against them.

The Catholics had the inquisition and the crusades. Since then they have been pretty much quiet. They seem to be anti-abortion. OK, so that is much worse than terrorism. Is that it?

Your posting criticism about the Christian church leads me to and obvious response. So what? Start another discussion thread. This one is about Islam, right?

I ask you to elaborate and you don't. you don't really have a point.

it reminds me of a Progressive talk show that went on and on and on and on and on about the Hiroshima bombing. To me this meant two things. Number one, Liberals and progressives have to remind themselves that nuclear bombs are bad. Number two, they are so clueless that they assume that Republicans do not know what nuclear bombs are bad.

I have to wonder if the same mind set is going on here. Someone who is against Islam must be too stupid to know that other religions have their faults as well. Is that what you think?

Or maybe you are too lazy to voice your displeasure against Christianity and when you find someone voicing their displeasure about another religion you are really upset towards yourself for not doing something about what was bothering you.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Considering the tone you take in this forum, I have a hard time believing you were "just asking question."

That sure would be quite a change of pace for you.

It is because they immediatly started accusing me of being a biblical fundamentalists. Imagine how you would feel. It was like going to a crime stoppers charity event and having everying there accusing you of being a child rapist.

When I told them I was not a biblical fundamentalist they kept on and on and on and on with the blind and deaf accusations. See youtube video clip of "why is the rum gone"



They have a wrong idea in their head and they refuse to learn. The idea gives them too much support for what they want to believe no matter how many times I tell them they are wrong. I am not a biblical fundamentalist. But they ask me "why is the rum gone?"

 

[A'isha]

The Catholics had the inquisition and the crusades. Since then they have been pretty much quiet. They seem to be anti-abortion. OK, so that is much worse than terrorism. Is that it?

I can give you the names of some people in the UK to put that question to, if you like. I don't think you'll like the answer they'll give you, though.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I can give you the names of some people in the UK to put that question to, if you like. I don't think you'll like the answer they'll give you, though.

What is your point? If the catholic church is bad, this means, what, exactly about Islam? What? Tell me your conclusion?

Do you think that by Ibn Warraq and Robert Spencer are bascially full of it and liars? Have you read any of their books? Do you think they are wrong when they say that Islam is a threat to Western Culture, or way of life, science in general and the well being and survival or our species? Is all that a lie?

Better yet, answer this. Since the Catholic church is bad, do you think that the opinions of the people who have written clear, logical and incontravertable proof that Islamic mainstream is bad for all of is, is not true?

 

[A'isha]

What is your point? If the catholic church is bad, this means, what, exactly about Islam? What? Tell me your conclusion?

I already answered this question above.

Do you think that by Ibn Warraq and Robert Spencer are bascially full of it and liars?

Pretty much, yeah.

Have you read any of their books?

I've read some of Ibn Warraq's work, and most of Spencer's website.

Do you think they are wrong when they say that Islam is a threat to Western Culture, or way of life, science in general and the well being and survival or our species?

No, I don't think they're wrong. They are wrong.

Is all that a lie?

Every word.

Better yet, answer this. Since the Catholic church is bad, do you think that the opinions of the people who have written clear, logical and incontravertable proof that Islamic mainstream is bad for all of is, is not true?

Someone would have to write clear, logical, and incontrovertible proof that the "Islamic mainstream" is bad for all of us first. Everything so far has either been about something other than the latter, or skimps on all of the former.

 

[bikerdruid]

So what if there are is a group called "Army Of God" do you think they are part of mainstream Christianity?

Do you think Al Qaeda is part of mainstream Islam?

zing....

bill, the thread topic is, "why not war against islam?"
you have claimed that the war is already happening.
do you support this war against islam?

 

[citizenzen]

I have to wonder if the same mind set is going on here. Someone who is against Islam must be too stupid to know that other religions have their faults as well. Is that what you think?

Or maybe you are too lazy to voice your displeasure against Christianity and when you find someone voicing their displeasure about another religion you are really upset towards yourself for not doing something about what was bothering you.

I think what's going on here has less to do with religion than it does with rationality.

Whichever voice (Muslim, Christian, etc.) raises an irrational point, that is the opinion that gets rebutted.

If a Muslim were to enter this conversation and put forth irrational opinions, then we would address those as well.

Until that time, we'll just have to settle for rebutting yours.

 

[DC]

If you want to fight Christianity and NOT fight Islam, go for it. I prefer fighting what is a direct threat to me and my family.

The idea that every religion has extremists is a nice and fuzzy idea. To bad this too is just a little tidbit that has no point. What is your point?

Was Theo Van Gogh killed by a false claim?

Is the death threat on Rushdie a false claim?

And how come you do not answer my questions?

Do you think Islam does more good than harm? Ibn Waraq would disagree. Are you right and he is an uninformed dolt? How many books have YOU written on this subject? How many people on Amazon post comments that he is off his rocker? How many people say he is spot right on?

as i said, extremists get fought without regard to their cult, be it a muslim be it a Catholic be it a Hindu or be it an Atheist.
I believe in religious freedom. people have a right to believe the nonsense of religions, but they are not allowed to violate out laws.

when you mean with war, a verbal war, pls do. im not hindering you.
when you want a war like in , lets kill the mofos, then you are also an extremist and will be fouhgt by the same guys that fight Islamic terrorists.

 

[DC]

Do you think Muslism would be compassionate and understanding of abortion rights?

What is your point?

So what if there are is a group called "Army Of God" do you think they are part of mainstream Christianity?

Wait a second. Do you think mainstream christian churches fund these guys?

Do you think mainstream islamic masques do NOT fund terrorism?

And what is your point? Are you saying since Christianity is bad Islam is good? A child knows two wrongs do not make a right.

Is it too much to hope that you will answer my questions?

Something else: the post your responded to does not mention charities.

interesting, for one group you are willing to accept different streams and main streams. But when it comes to Islam, there is only one stream.......

 

[Cuddles]

Several posts have been removed to AAH. Remain civil and avoid engaging in personal attacks.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Toontown]

No, your criticisms were made from a position of ignorance regarding pretty much everything you were attempting to "criticize".

False. My criticisms were made from a position of having read the posts I criticized. Having read the posts and found them wanting, I did not need to know every little irrelevant tedious detail of all the various conflicting beliefs of billions of Muslims, Christians, or whatever.

In fact, the one time I attempted to engage you regarding an actual criticism posted by one of the people I named above, you flat-out refused.

And why is it deemed by you to be my utterly tedious responsibility to engage you regarding someone else's criticism? I didn't volunteer to be your whipping-boy for someone else's posts. In fact, I think you've just picked the wrong whipping-boy entirely.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Once again, what the hell is your point?

A good friend of mine lost her niece, the youngest victim of 9-11.

Forgive me Bill, but what's your friend's name?

 

[FireGarden]

"I know my criticisms are dead on because I don't know a single dang thing about the topic and I flat-out refuse to remedy my ignorance!"

Certainly a unique debating technique, I must say.

You've been lucky!

The Catholics had the inquisition and the crusades. Since then they have been pretty much quiet. They seem to be anti-abortion. OK, so that is much worse than terrorism. Is that it?

No, that's not it. The point is that you are talking about Catholics in the same way that you talk about Muslims -- treating them as all being the same.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/abortion_1.shtml

Catholic women in the United States are as likely as women in the general population to have an abortion, and 29% more likely than Protestant women.

[...] 64% of US Catholics disapprove of the statement that abortion is morally wrong in every case

Reading what the Vatican says (earlier on that page) you may ask why those I quoted continue to call themselves Catholics. And why the Pope still considers them Catholic -- we even had a thread on this inspired by a comment of Richard Dawkins regarding the Pope's claim for the number of Catholics in the UK.

it reminds me of a Progressive talk show that went on and on and on and on and on about the Hiroshima bombing. To me this meant two things. Number one, Liberals and progressives have to remind themselves that nuclear bombs are bad. Number two, they are so clueless that they assume that Republicans do not know what nuclear bombs are bad.

Is this really all you walk away with from a documentary about the Hiroshima bombing?

I have to wonder if the same mind set is going on here. Someone who is against Islam must be too stupid to know that other religions have their faults as well. Is that what you think?

I really don't know how you got this impression.

Or maybe you are too lazy to voice your displeasure against Christianity and when you find someone voicing their displeasure about another religion you are really upset towards yourself for not doing something about what was bothering you.

That your criticism is itself being criticised is not because of its target. It is because your criticism is badly founded. I'm certainly not upset with my own abilities to criticise religious ideas. In fact, I'm quite proud of them. When discussing matters with a particular Muslim I take the time to find out what that Muslim actually believes. And then I base my response on what he/she says they believe.


Got to go back quite a way to find an example of a 'debate' with a Muslim on this forum(quotes because he didn't respond to any points raised):

On the divinity of Jesus:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5641

On the meaning of 'Nutfah':
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=153377

When it comes to criticising entire religions, I'm reminded of someone's response to the question 'What CAN you say about gay people on this forum?':

They are gay and they are people. Anything else said about such a large group is not likely to be true.


(Apologies for not giving credit to the source of that).

 

[FireGarden]

False. My criticisms were made from a position of having read the posts I criticized. Having read the posts and found them wanting, I did not need to know every little irrelevant tedious detail of all the various conflicting beliefs of billions of Muslims, Christians, or whatever.

I'm sure you belive that. But your ability to understand the posts in question is impaired by your ignorance of those 'tedious' details.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I have fought Catholicism too. So your criticism of the catholic church does not impress me. Did you think it would? Why do youthink it would? What is your point?

My inlaws wanted to baptize my baby in a catholic church. I told them that they would have to kill me first and I was serious. Do you ever put your life on the line for what yo believe in? Or do you only make logical fallacies to support a fantasy world that you wish was real?

 

[DC]

when you talk about verbal wars against any religion, i am all for it. but it seemed more like the OP meant a real war.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Forgive me Bill, but what's your friend's name?

Her name is Mona Pingree. Why do you ask? Do you doubt me? Are you looking to exploit people?