Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

a shaky memory

In the bugged conversation below I think she is talking about Juve.
It is remarkable that Raffaele does not seem to know who she is talking about and when he wants to know it Amanda avoids answering.

Juve was to testify at the trial but the police could not find him.
By Amanda's claim Juve had been in the cottage the day before the murder.
I have a feeling that he was not properly investigated.

bolint,

I think the passage you quoted was about Hicham (shaky). BTW, I think Raffaele was wrong in his statement before Matteini because (according to it) he would not have been at his cottage to meet Ms. Popovic for the first time, which happened between 5 and 6 PM, IIRC.

 

[RoseMontague]

In the bugged conversation below I think she is talking about Juve.
It is remarkable that Raffaele does not seem to know who she is talking about and when he wants to know it Amanda avoids answering.

Juve was to testify at the trial but the police could not find him.
By Amanda's claim Juve had been in the cottage the day before the murder.
I have a feeling that he was not properly investigated.

In the first part she is talking about Juve (got her a job) and the second part about Hichman (Shaky-tried to hit on her). The comment was that the conversation between AK and RS was a weird mix of Italian and English and very difficult to follow. This leads us to the similar translation problems with the locked door, AK's calls to Filomena, etc. Not enough has been made of the lost in translation problems in this case.

 

[LondonJohn]

In the bugged conversation below I think she is talking about Juve.
It is remarkable that Raffaele does not seem to know who she is talking about and when he wants to know it Amanda avoids answering.

Juve was to testify at the trial but the police could not find him.
By Amanda's claim Juve had been in the cottage the day before the murder.
I have a feeling that he was not properly investigated.

1) Why is it "remarkable" that Sollecito and Knox are talking at crossed purposes about different people at one point in this conversation?

2) Why is it not perfectly natural that Knox and Sollecito might have been idly speculating about who might have done such a terrible thing?

3) Why is it not perfectly natural that Knox might bring to mind one of her acquaintances from the Perugia scene who had clearly (from Knox's account) turned out to be somewhat over-familiar and perhaps even sexually aggressive towards Knox in the past ("he tried it on with me") - which had seemingly led to Knox backing away from him as a friend ("I don't like him any more")?

 

[LondonJohn]

That she had not talked about it before reporting it to Napoleoni after the discovery of the murder. Neither to Raffaele, nor to Filomena.

Er, didn't she mention it to Sollecito when she returned to his apartment that morning? Didn't Sollecito then get confused when he looked into the toilet of the wrong bathroom and saw no faeces (the faeces was in the toilet of the large bathroom, but Sollecito was looking in the small bathroom's toilet)?

 

[RoseMontague]

bolint,

I think the passage you quoted was about Hicham (shaky). BTW, I think Raffaele was wrong in his statement before Matteini because (according to it) he would not have been at his cottage to meet Ms. Popovic for the first time, which happened between 5 and 6 PM, IIRC.

That was later, after Patrick's text, 8:40PM.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two visits

That was later, after Patrick's text, 8:40PM.

RoseMontague,

The first time that Jovanna Popovic came over, it was 5:45 PM. The second time it was about 8:45, according to Murder in Italy. The first time was to ask Raffaele to help her retrieve a suitcase, and the second time was to let him know that she did not need a ride, afterall. I think she only spoke with Amanda the second time.

 

[Antony]

Suppose that the bra clasp had been duly collected on the first day, directly from under the body where it was found.

Would the innocentists accept it for proof of involvement?

Not without corroborating evidence, not with the questions about interpretation of the DNA data raised in the Conti/Vechiotti report, and not unless the tests were carried out before Raffaele had been arrested. There are multiple issues with this item - not just the delay and the circumstances of its retrieval from the murder room.

• there is no other DNA from Raffaele in the murder room - a single uncorroborated clue against the accused cannot be regarded as proof;
• I can't see how it is possible for an attacker's DNA to get on the metal hook during the assault at all;
• there is the unexplained DNA of up to 4 other unidentified people on the clasp;
• Conti and Vechiotti reported that the raw DNA data were wrongly analysed to create a match with Raffaele.

This is all moot in any case - the delayed collection of the bra-clasp and the manifest gloating over it of the investigating team in the notorious video are an insult to the judicial process; but even without those, the other questions don't give it any credibility as evidence against Raffaele.

 

[RoseMontague]

RoseMontague,

The first time that Jovanna Popovic came over, it was 5:45 PM. The second time it was about 8:45, according to Murder in Italy. The first time was to ask Raffaele to help her retrieve a suitcase, and the second time was to let him know that she did not need a ride, afterall. I think she only spoke with Amanda the second time.

Forgot about that one, thanks. This is also confirmed in the Massei report and also states Amanda opened the door both times.

 

[RoseMontague]

Turnip juice is taking over the world

Reviewing the test results again (Hallooooooooooo Christiana), I see they ran numerous tests on Raffaele's Audi, and this gets barely a mention in Massei. The interesting thing is two more Luminol hits found. That Luminol stuff picks things up from everywhere it seems (or turnip juice is more popular than I thought).

Rep. 76 - Sample of presumed biological trace (sample 10) (evidence by “luminol” technique) and taken from the right front seat lever - page 256 A.F./120 R.;
Rep 77 - Sample of presumed biological trace (sample 11) evidence revealed by luminol and taken from the right back seat lever – page 256A.F./120R.;

(Both From Raffaele’s Audi)

 

[RoseMontague]

Not without corroborating evidence, not with the questions about interpretation of the DNA data raised in the Conti/Vechiotti report, and not unless the tests were carried out before Raffaele had been arrested. There are multiple issues with this item - not just the delay and the circumstances of its retrieval from the murder room.

• there is no other DNA from Raffaele in the murder room - a single uncorroborated clue against the accused cannot be regarded as proof;
• I can't see how it is possible for an attacker's DNA to get on the metal hook during the assault at all;
• there is the unexplained DNA of up to 4 other unidentified people on the clasp;
• Conti and Vechiotti reported that the raw DNA data were wrongly analysed to create a match with Raffaele.

This is all moot in any case - the delayed collection of the bra-clasp and the manifest gloating over it of the investigating team in the notorious video are an insult to the judicial process; but even without those, the other questions don't give it any credibility as evidence against Raffaele.

I agree Antony. My reading of both the C&V report as well as Hellmann's actions leads me to believe contamination is not even the main thing they are really thinking may have happened. I believe they are in reality thinking deliberate falsification of evidence and will use the probability of contamination to discredit the evidence. Add an appropriate onomatopoeia.

 

[Dan O.]

Working back from 8.45pm, therefore, if they had watched the film in one continuous viewing, they would have started watching it at around 6.45pm. But they left for Sollecito's apartment at around 5pm (and it would have taken 5-10 minutes to make the journey). I therefore think it's highly likely that they started watching "Amelie" at around 5.30-6.00pm, then paused the movie and went out to buy food etc at around 6.45-7.00pm, returning to watch the remainder of the movie at around 8.20-8.30pm.

Another data point we have though is that at 18:27:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi (from the Massei Report pg 325). Under your scenario, they had to quit the movie and then launch it again just before going out. There is also the coincidence that from the above time that VLC was launched to the time Amanda responds to Patrick's text at 20:35:48 is just a little longer than the runtime of the movie.

I also noted from Amanda's testimony:

GM: Excuse me, but what time did you leave the house in via della Pergola on
Nov 1?

AK: Around...4 o'clock, maybe? I don't look at the clock. But I know it must
have been 4 or 5 o'clock when we left the house on Nov 1.​

If we roll the time of leaving the cottage back to 4pm, there is plenty of time to go through town and pick up ingredients for dinner.

 

[Kaosium]

Here is the source of the quote.

But the relationship soon soured. Kercher, a cheerful and hard-working young woman, had budding reservations about her flatmate. According to friends, she grew more and more exasperated by Knox’s behaviour — she failed to flush the toilet, kept strumming the same chord on her guitar, and brought “strange men” to the cottage.

Indeed, it appears that it was Knox’s sex life that really drove a wedge between the women.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6945967.ece

Nah, that was just gossip. After Meredith was killed her English friends returned to England and Amanda was arrested, then brought before Matteini on November 8th and the sordid sex ritual/game/whatever theory (note there was and never would be any physical evidence Raffaele and Amanda were involved in any rape) was presented and she approved their detention. The tabloids from almost the moment that happened started tearing apart Amanda and Raffaele's Myspace pages and blogs looking for anything naughty or nasty, and the police had presented a lot of mistakes/lies/coincidences before Matteini which suggested they must be guilty and basically demented freaks.

In this environment one of the British tabloids did an interview with those English girls who said things Meredith had told them, along with disapproval of Demented Freak Amanda's behavior directly after the murder, notably in the police station where Amanda spent most of her waking hours after the murder and before their arrest. It would have just amounted to tabloid trash, but they returned (probably at Mignini's request) to Perugia to give statements on this crucial evidence, and being as the Italian Supreme Court wouldn't approve any motive (this lowers the burden of proof in an Italian Court) notably the hash-inspired comic book mayhem suggested by Demented Freak Raffaele's interest in manga comics, they testified at the trial to stuff like this, including also something about a gag-gift pink bunny vibrator Amanda kept in her personals bag in the bathroom that Meredith apparently thought kinda odd.

It was the day after this testimony, February 14th 2009, that Amanda wore the 'All You Need is Love' Beatles t-shirt to court, some think in reaction to that testimony. The ones living with Amanda and Meredith thought their relationship normal, and there's nothing to indicate Amanda ever knew anything about what was said behind her back, thus all it would give is Meredith a 'motive' to kill Amanda if you think this sort of thing relevant. Personally it all just sounds like the sorts of complaints one might have of any roommate that became public solely because of the trial-by-tabloid nature of this case, and the creation of the 'Foxy-Knoxy' mythology.

Here's one of the accounts right after the murder, there was another with more detail from the English girls I didn't find in a cursory search. Here's an account of their crucial testimony at her trial. Here's one on their being 'ordered' to return to Italy to be questioned about it.

 

[bolint]

When you ask people to make an exact timeline of how they spent they leisure time a week ago, you don't expect to find any inaccuracies at all?

It is not about minute details of an exact timeline a week before.
They had been busy in this investigation for the four days before they broke.
(Haven't we heard the "54 hour pressure" argument enough times? )
How could they have forgotten it?

There is another "contradiction" in the text you quoted. According to computer data the movie "Amelie" ended after Amanda received the SMS, not before. Highly suspicious, isn't it?

Amélie is another topic yet to be discussed.
For the time being, what you mention is by itself not a contradiction. The film started at 18:26 and it is 122 min long (IMDB) so by 20:28 it could have been finished. (They even might have skipped some parts of the film.)
And Amanda did not say that she noticed the message immediately when it arrived. So she could have read and answered the message after the film.

However, I don't think that she was in Raffaele's house at the time of the arrival of the message.
The phone record, though in itself does not refute Amanda's version, still corroborates Raffaele's claim that at that time (20:18) they were in the town centre.

 

[bolint]

If we roll the time of leaving the cottage back to 4pm, there is plenty of time to go through town and pick up ingredients for dinner.

At that time Meredith was leaving.
And Amanda said that she played the guitar after that.
So the 4pm departure is strained.

And at about 17:45 Popovic rang the bell.
And Amanda does not talk about any shopping
And Raffaele talks about arrival time of 20:30 or later, not before 17:45.

So the town centre visit, if happened, must have been later.

 

[bolint]

Because?

I don't know.
For example she improvised the hairwashing story and then she may have thought that they won't believe that she did not notice the toilet and if she did she did not deem it to be worthy of mentioning.

Remember, Napoleoni's witness statement:

upon arrival at the house in Via della Pergola on November 2, Raffaele Sollecito had told her: "My girlfriend has now remembered and told me that when she went into the bathroom this morning by herself there were feces in the toilet and that when we returned to the house it was no longer there‛

I know "it's only Napoleoni's words" but it sounds like Raffaele also learnt it at that time.

Anyway, I think that the whole shower/boogie/hairwash/toilet/mop story is made up.
Only Rudy's souvenir is a corroborated point in it.


She was not at that time in the cottage.

 

[bolint]

But - more importantly - where in this quote does it even suggest - far less explicitly state - that Knox and Sollecito didn't leave Sollecito's apartment at between around 7pm and 8.30pm? Your bolded part doesn't even go so far as to imply that Knox/Sollecito did not leave Sollecito's apartment at any time after they first arrived there at around 5.00-5.15pm.

Nowhere. Actually I think that they did go out sometime in that time interval.

In addition, I'm sure you're aware that Knox and Sollecito both claim that they finished watching "Amelie" at around 8.45-9.00pm.

I'm aware that none of them claims anything like that.
More exact timing is in other recent posts.

And the above interpretation fits with the scenario where Knox and Sollecito start to watch "Amelie" at around 5.30-5.45pm, then pause the movie to go out at around 7pm, arriving back at Sollecito's apartment at perhaps around 8.15pm. They then watch the final half-hour of "Amelie", up until around 8.45pm, at which point Knox looks at her phone and notices Lumumba's text message.

I also think something like that happened.
I don't think, though, that they finished the film upon returning home.

 

[RoseMontague]

I guess I am missing the point, Bolint. What in this time frame around 7-8pm if they indeed went out on the town are they trying to cover-up? How is it related to Meredith's murder? Why are they trying to hide something in this time frame? What do you think it means?

 

[Kaosium]

In the bugged conversation below I think she is talking about Juve.
It is remarkable that Raffaele does not seem to know who she is talking about and when he wants to know it Amanda avoids answering.

Juve was to testify at the trial but the police could not find him.
By Amanda's claim Juve had been in the cottage the day before the murder.
I have a feeling that he was not properly investigated.

You know what I can't help but wonder? If a kook like Mignini heard this he might just equivocate 'girlfriend' and 'wife' and read it as she might be talking about Patrick Lumumba. It could look awfully suspicious to that sort of mind if he had other reasons to be interested in Patrick....

 

[bolint]

Er, didn't she mention it to Sollecito when she returned to his apartment that morning? Didn't Sollecito then get confused when he looked into the toilet of the wrong bathroom and saw no faeces (the faeces was in the toilet of the large bathroom, but Sollecito was looking in the small bathroom's toilet)?

That's what is being questioned.
The wrong bathroom theory is pure bunkum.

 

[bolint]

What in this time frame around 7-8pm if they indeed went out on the town are they trying to cover-up? How is it related to Meredith's murder? Why are they trying to hide something in this time frame? What do you think it means?

I don't know. Surely they were not buying grocery (unless it was some kind of grass). The may have met someone.