Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

Stefanoni is addressed as Dr. in court transcripts and documents, and Italian media articles.

I don't think the title Dr. Steffi is used but rather Dr. Stefanoni.

This is why I cherish you Christiana.

Please take note Dr. hal

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I wonder what the DNA evidence looks like in the Misseri case

I don't see a lot of folks calling her Dr. Steffi, but really no clue me.

Burleigh talks about how discovery in theory is a lot different from the reality of what prosecutors do.

RoseMontague,

I will have to look at her book for those passages. However, I have given at least one example of how someone in law enforcement in New York City deliberately mischaracterized the nature of DNA discovery, using a case from Michigan as an example. Therefore, Comodi may be saying things that are less than wholly true. Raffaele's appeal makes clear that Pascali expected to receive certain files but did not.

On the other hand, if Italy really does not specify that these files should be released to the defense upon request (as is true in the United States), then I have no hesitation about saying that Italy needs to reform this law. I am not saying that the Italian system is better or worse than the American system on the whole, but this reform would have no downside and plenty of upside. If I were a lawyer for the Misseris, I would be demanding all of the DNA files.

 

[katy_did]

RoseMontague,

There is so much that is dismaying in this whole passage, but does the above mean that Stefanoni only has a bachelor's degree?

I thought I'd read somewhere that 'Dr.' is used as a title if someone has a bachelor's degree in Italy; this is what it says in the ever-reliable </sarcasm> Wiki at any rate:

During the 20th century Italian universities introduced more advanced research degrees, such as the Ph.D., and now that it is part of the E.U. Bologna Process, a new 3-year first degree, or “laurea breve o triennale” (equivalent to a B.A. of other countries), has been introduced. [...] For historical reasons, even to this day, the title of "dottore/dottoressa" (abbrev. both as dott/dott.ssa or as dr./dr.ssa [29] ) is awarded even to those who have attended a "laurea breve o triennale". Upper levels of degree are anyway shown in the title, as those who obtain a master's degree can be referred as "dottore/dottoressa magistrale" (masterly doctor) while those who achieve the relatively new program of "dottorato di ricerca" (research doctorate, equivalent of a Ph.D.), carry the title of "dottore/dottoressa di ricerca" (research doctor), which can be abbreviated as "Dott. Ric." or "Ph.D." [30]

 

[RoseMontague]

I thought I'd read somewhere that 'Dr.' is used as a title if someone has a bachelor's degree in Italy; this is what it says in the ever-reliable </sarcasm> Wiki at any rate:

Interesting. Does anyone know where and what kind of degree(s) Ms Steffi has?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

research training

I thought I'd read somewhere that 'Dr.' is used as a title if someone has a bachelor's degree in Italy; this is what it says in the ever-reliable </sarcasm> Wiki at any rate:

katy_did,

Thanks. My concern is not only a matter of how much knowledge one accrues during research trainig. It is also that when one is mentored during a Ph.D. program, a part of that learning process is not to fall in love with one's own ideas (or at least it should be part of the process). Guarding against confirmation bias is doubly difficult in forensics. MOO.

 

[Onofarar]

No. Because aside from Rudy's palm print, shoe print and DNA on purse and in vagina, those numbnuts didn't find anything else that was the slightest bit useful. And now that DNA evidence is even questionable. So there you have it. Huge, messy murder scene and these idiots come up with . . . a palm print and a shoe print, both of which probably match 25% of the male population in Perugia. Why would we even begin to suspect that they would have the competency to find evidence of Amanda in her own house?

BTW they didn't bother to test a probable semen stain on a pillow or pillowcase under Meredith's body OR if they tested it they have suppressed / lost the results.

 

[christianahannah]

Interesting. Does anyone know where and what kind of degree(s) Ms Steffi has?

Well, in part, (Stefanoni - interview with http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...EBSjuJ&sig=AHIEtbRg6O1Zv_Yc8ajaT7KyewYnaTA44w):

Mi sono laureata in Biologia, presso la Facolta di Scienze dell Universita di Napoli Federico II, nel 1995.

Also, a list of those who were observing the independent re-examination of the bra clasp and knife, and the titles given them (from the Independent Experts report):

-Dr.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Prof Giuseppe Novelli, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Dott. Emiliano Giardina, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Prof.ssa Francesca Torricelli, consulente per la parte civile;
-Prof. Adriano Tagliabracci, consulente per Raffaele Sollecito:
-Dott, Valerio Onofri, consulente per Raffaele Sollecito;
-Prof. Carlo Torre, consulente per Amanda M. Knox;
-Dr.ssa Sarah Gino, consulente per Amanda M. Knox;
-Dr. Walter Patumi, consulente per Amanda M. Knox.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, in part, (Stefanoni - interview with http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...EBSjuJ&sig=AHIEtbRg6O1Zv_Yc8ajaT7KyewYnaTA44w):



Also, a list of those who were observing the independent re-examination of the bra clasp and knife, and the titles given them (from the Independent Experts report):

-Dr.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Prof Giuseppe Novelli, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Dott. Emiliano Giardina, consulente per la Procura Generale;
-Prof.ssa Francesca Torricelli, consulente per la parte civile;
-Prof. Adriano Tagliabracci, consulente per Raffaele Sollecito:
-Dott, Valerio Onofri, consulente per Raffaele Sollecito;
-Prof. Carlo Torre, consulente per Amanda M. Knox;
-Dr.ssa Sarah Gino, consulente per Amanda M. Knox;
-Dr. Walter Patumi, consulente per Amanda M. Knox.

So does this mean that the ssa is just an undergrad degree and her quote means just an equivalent to a BS in Biology?

 

[JREF2010]

no prints in the hallway to or from the bathroom...

I left the house in shock. I was outside, but didn’t know
where to go, seeing still all that blood. It was all so red. I
thought of going home. I had wet trousers and tried to
cover it with the sweatshirt. There were a lot of people in
the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still
playing basketball even though it was dark.
I arrived back home, not knowing what to do. I remember
having taken off my pants. I changed only those, because
of the clothes I was wearing, only the trousers were dirty.
I put on the “Pelle Pelle” ones, I remember because many
of my friends said they looked like pajamas. I washed my
hands, they were full of blood, in the sink, and I left. I just
wasn’t able to stay home.

Rudys- German Diary

Dan O.
I thought it was written, he only changed his bloody pants. This seems to support that he got his pant legs bloody, imo.

Only the fronts most likely as there is nothing on the bed showing he had blood on the back of his trousers.

It's possible, Rudy was on his knees when he got blood on the pants, his tennis shoe soles opposite direction of the main area of blood.

Just thinking the clean shoe sole theory..

Rudy rinsing his right pant leg off, his foot from his shoe, he then left the "solo" footprint on the bathmat. His pant leg wet from the shower, his socked foot wet, then stepping to the bathmat, then back into his NIKE shoe.

He wouldn't leave any footprints in the hallway, returning to the bedroom.

I'm kind of stuck on that, it seems to fit the "solo" print. I read a long time ago someone mentioned the rinsing of his pant leg. Not sure if it was the bidet or shower.

With this thought, something else connected.


His right pant leg probably bloody, supported by the right footprint on the bathmat, "if" true,

it also comes to thought of his position over Meredith during the struggle and end of the fight, that would leave his right pant leg bloody.

Could he have been holding the knife in his left hand (as supported by the blood knife pattern on the bedsheet to the left) with it to Merediths neck from the back.

Could Rudy have been positioned behind, Meredith with his right leg on the floor getting into the blood starting to pool, Meredith on all fours her head towards the wall, the blood to the right side?

Rudys tennis shoes furthest away from the wounds, towards the doorway.

Rudy rises after there is no more fight, having blood on his hands and right leg.

in summary the bedsheet pattern in the pic, insinuates the knife was held in his left hand.

the bathmat of the right foot insinuates it was his right pant leg that was rinsed in water. he confirms his pants were wet and only his pants bloody.

his tennis shoes clean, facing the doorway where no blood was as we see the main pool of blood was towards the closet.

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/dsc_0117.jpg

 

[snook1]

Interesting. Does anyone know where and what kind of degree(s) Ms Steffi has?

She is a doctor of contamination and mop wrapping.

 

[snook1]

There were a lot of people in
the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still
playing basketball even though it was dark.

Rudys- German Diary

Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but many people in the streets and guys playing basketball, would mean that it was rather early in the evening. Not very late, as the prosecutor's TOD suggest.

Notice how Rudy said "even though it was dark". He could easily say "even though it was very late".

Not sure if anyone has any idea what I'm trying to say here, so I'll just go away and try to think of a better way to describe what I have in mind.

 

[zeb]

She is a doctor of contamination and mop wrapping.

Nice one

 

[LondonJohn]

I thought I'd read somewhere that 'Dr.' is used as a title if someone has a bachelor's degree in Italy; this is what it says in the ever-reliable </sarcasm> Wiki at any rate:

Excellent! I am going to start referring to myself in both business and social circles as "Masterly Doctor"

 

[LondonJohn]

So does this mean that the ssa is just an undergrad degree and her quote means just an equivalent to a BS in Biology?

Yup. Although the pro-guilt fools don't yet realise this: they make a point of always referring to her as "Dr Stefanoni" - clearly to give the intention that she holds either a PhD or MD. Oh (as they say) dear......

PS: the ".ssa" is merely the abbreviated feminine form of the title: "Dr.ssa" is short for "Dottoressa", which is the feminine equivalent of "Dottore". It's like the English language has "actor " and "actress" as gender-specific alternatives for the same profession.

 

[Dan O.]

The first news report gave: "Responsible Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome". In an interview, we learn where and when she graduated but nothing is said about advanced degrees. There are many references to "Dr." but so far no bio and very few publications.

 

[LondonJohn]

Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places, but many people in the streets and guys playing basketball, would mean that it was rather early in the evening. Not very late, as the prosecutor's TOD suggest.

Notice how Rudy said "even though it was dark". He could easily say "even though it was very late".

Not sure if anyone has any idea what I'm trying to say here, so I'll just go away and try to think of a better way to describe what I have in mind.

I think you're trying to say the following: Guede says he saw people playing basketball, and he made a point of suggesting that this might be considered unusual under the circumstances. But the circumstance he described is that it was dark - not that it was late in the evening. It would indeed be unusual for people to be playing basketball at midnight - even on a warm summer's evening. And it would also be unusual for people to be playing basketball in the dark, on a poorly-lit court.

Since it would have been fully dark in Perugia by 7pm in early November, it would be deemed unusual to see people playing basketball after that time. But if it was dark and late, the more logical thing to say about the unusual circumstance was that it was late, since this automatically also implies that it was dark. Therefore, it's reasonable to suggest that the fact that Guede only described it being dark - and didn't mention it being late - implies that it was in the early or middle part of the evening.

The other thing to remember with regard to timings is that Guede gives another big clue when he mentions the "9.20-9.30" scream. As we've already discussed, it's reasonable to suggest that Guede was intentionally fairly accurate with this timing, as it appears he was worried that someone on the street might have heard it.

 

[snook1]

I think you're trying to say the following: Guede says he saw people playing basketball, and he made a point of suggesting that this might be considered unusual under the circumstances. But the circumstance he described is that it was dark - not that it was late in the evening. It would indeed be unusual for people to be playing basketball at midnight - even on a warm summer's evening. And it would also be unusual for people to be playing basketball in the dark, on a poorly-lit court.

Since it would have been fully dark in Perugia by 7pm in early November, it would be deemed unusual to see people playing basketball after that time. But if it was dark and late, the more logical thing to say about the unusual circumstance was that it was late, since this automatically also implies that it was dark. Therefore, it's reasonable to suggest that the fact that Guede only described it being dark - and didn't mention it being late - implies that it was in the early or middle part of the evening.

The other thing to remember with regard to timings is that Guede gives another big clue when he mentions the "9.20-9.30" scream. As we've already discussed, it's reasonable to suggest that Guede was intentionally fairly accurate with this timing, as it appears he was worried that someone on the street might have heard it.

That's exactly what I wanted to say!



Thank you.

 

[Diocletus]

I finished The Fatal Gift of Beauty and will comment on the book as a whole later. A few interesting quotes and other information emerge including the burglary quote on Rudy and the one from Mignini I posted on the CT thread. This is the scoop on Comodi with a quote that says it all.



Very interesting in light of recent appeal events.

Wow, just wow.

It's difficult to believe, given this quote, that Comodi actually went to law school. Perhaps she just has a BA, like Stef?

It's also hard to believe that Comodi would be stupid enough to say this no matter what her degree is. What does she say now that it turns out that the defense really did need the files? Oops . . . we guessed wrong . . . sorry?

 

[komponisto]

Looking through it, at least it seems to be quite well-written, unlike that book by will survive or whatever his name is. Seems to be a bit over-generalized in places though ("that quality that so differentiates the American from Europeans - enthusiasm"!). I'll try and withhold any (more) judgment till I've read it.

There's a lot of stuff like this; another notable one is "shutters are an important part of Italian life" (although I must say that they have like five different words for shutters, so maybe this isn't too far off).

She's very hard on Curt Knox, and really plays up the supposed acrimony of the divorce between him and Edda, which I've never seen anywhere else -- making me guess that the family would dispute her characterization of this and other matters.

Rose's description of it as the book that Nadeau would have written if she were an innocentista is probably rather apt.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's difficult to believe, given this quote, that Comodi actually went to law school. Perhaps she just has a BA, like Stef?

It's also hard to believe that Comodi would be stupid enough to say this no matter what her degree is. What does she say now that it turns out that the defense really did need the files? Oops . . . we guessed wrong . . . sorry?

I particularly like this piece of boneheaded and ignorant horse manure of an "argument":

“No defense right has been threatened (said Comodi). We decide if documents are necessary or not. I didn’t even look at their request of July 30 [for the superwitness]. I opened it and closed it right away. It was so useless. No law says the scientific police have to produce all that’s requested. It’s not proof, and we didn’t need it to support our case. The prosecutor’s office decides what is useful and what is distraction."

Note to Comodi: My dear Manuela, this is precisely why discovery rules were introduced: to put an end to idiots like you perverting the course of justice by unilaterally deciding what should and should not be provided to the defence. I particularly refer to the part where you say "We decide if documents are necessary or not" as a classic example of pompous arrogance and potential misconduct in public office; while the bit where you say "It's not proof, and we didn't need it to support our case" is a masterstroke double-whammy of arrogance and sheer illogicality. This is, after all, not so much about what prosecutors need to support their case - it's about what defence teams need from the prosecutors in order to have an opportunity to conduct a defence.

If the quoted passage is indeed accurately attributable to you*, then you clearly stand shoulder-to shoulder with Mignini as prime culprits in this disgusting farce. You therefore deserve to share significantly in the blame that will be attributed when this is all over by the end of the year. In short, you are a disgrace to the legal profession and to public service. And you're a chain smoker......

* and there's no reason to suggest this is not the case, given that it's in a published book and is a directly-attributed quote.