Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What is so difficult to understand about the word "irrelevant".:rolleyes:

I have stated my opinion and you have stated yours.

Both are irrelevant.

Bye.


Ahhh, the good old "persecution" withdrawal from the arena!

If you had stuck to debating the case - which seemed to be going fine for a while - we could have engaged in a decent debate. Instead, you decided to change tack and (for reasons best known to you) inform us that our discussions were irrelevant. When you received abrupt (but fair) responses to this post, you picked up your ball and left. I get the strong feeling that this was always your intention, but that's just me.

Maybe I'll conduct a little experiment. I'll visit a thread that I've never engaged with before - perhaps one of the threads discussing the Israel/Palestine problem - and make a few inquiring posts. Then I will tell everyone that their discussions are irrelevant, and see what happens.
 
____________________

John,

According to Rudy, in his German prison diary, Meredith is supposed to have said it to Rudy, in Italian, when her money was discovered to be missing, before Amanda showed up at the cottage that night. Rudy says in his diary that he's quoting Meredith's exact words. The Italian phrase has been translated in several ways, "drugged-up tart," "doper whore," etc.

///


Ah yes - stupid me!! I should have realised that multitasking at gone midnight was likely to result in disaster!

But of course the mechanism you've described above also raises significant doubts as to Guede's truthfulness. Even though Meredith had a fairly good grasp of Italian by that time, how likely is it that she would have been able to say the Italian equivalent of "drugged-up tart" (or similar)? In addition, it's almost certain that Guede and Meredith didn't engage in any such kind of conversation that night, meaning that it's therefore almost certain that Guede's invented this quote out of whole cloth. The only words exchanged between Guede and Meredith that night were based around the confrontation that resulted in Guede stabbing and sexually assaulting Meredith. The subject of Knox's behaviour would never have arisen.
 
Ergon is wondering if I am one of those "men with issues" and others have chimed in.

No, Rose is not Mark Waterbury. For the record Rose has posted in the last 7 years or so at various places under the names Rose, Mark, Red, and Scarlet. For the moment Rose is quite comfortable with the name Rose.

Is The Machine "pretending" to be a machine?

I was always puzzled as to why they were so certain which forum identity was the real pseudonym and which the pseudo-pseudonym. Or indeed why they presumed that any of the above were pseudo-pseudonyms*.

No: I believe The Machine is, in fact, a machine.

*If that's how you pluralize it. It looks like one of those words you make plural by changing a letter: 'pseudonom' perhaps.
 
Ahhh, the good old "persecution" withdrawal from the arena!

If you had stuck to debating the case - which seemed to be going fine for a while - we could have engaged in a decent debate. Instead, you decided to change tack and (for reasons best known to you) inform us that our discussions were irrelevant. When you received abrupt (but fair) responses to this post, you picked up your ball and left. I get the strong feeling that this was always your intention, but that's just me.

Maybe I'll conduct a little experiment. I'll visit a thread that I've never engaged with before - perhaps one of the threads discussing the Israel/Palestine problem - and make a few inquiring posts. Then I will tell everyone that their discussions are irrelevant, and see what happens.

Firstly, I said bye to Kevin.

Secondly, the irrelevant comment was clearly stated as my impression.

I seem to recall your agreement with the irrelevancy of the discussion.

I also note that your comments still border on "cool" and "witty".:rolleyes:

I don't feel persecuted at all by this thread or the comments I have received.

It is only opinion after all and everyone has an opinion.

If you do not like my opinion, simply ignore me. That is after all what you suggest forum members do when confronted with a myriad of Knox threads.
 
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Good grief. Is this the "confession" that is the basis of so much Knox slamming on the internet?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

How in the world is this evidence in any way of guilt? Anybody that has followed any discussions of the problems of police interrogations producing false confessions can see a poster child for the practice in that "confession". She's lied to for hours on end and in a state bordering on hallucinogenic after hours of interrogation she's still enough of a critical thinker to be willing to consider possibilities that counter her memories of the events.

It looks to me like the authorities not only implanted false information to get this statement they decided to misinterpret it into a "confession".


And what you've just written here is important in a wider context. Most of us arguing for acquittal have no emotional attachment to such a position. I would suggest that we all first came to the case with a neutral point of view - or even one inclined towards guilt (most people arrested and charged with crimes are culpable of those crimes, and the vast majority of those found guilty in criminal courts are culpable). Funnily enough, my first standpoint on the case was that Knox and Sollecito were almost certainly culpable: this was based on my limited exposure to the case via the book "Darkness Descending", which (it turned out) contained a number of very significant factual errors, coupled with a casual bias towards guilt.

But to look at the "confession/accusation" issue in isolation is to see a microcosm of all that's different about the opposing "sides" in this internet debate. Like you, I look objectively at all the evidence surrounding this issue, and I come to the clear conclusion that the statements were improperly obtained and were extremely likely to be the direct result of police coercion. There are so many obvious pointers to this being the case: for me, the most important provable ones are Perugia Police Chief de Felice's statement from the following day* and the testimony of police interpreter Anna Donnino in which she said that she'd helped to persuade Knox that she might have suffered traumatic memory loss. Other less-provable (but probably correct) factors are the text of Knox's statements - most notably the "gift", what she was allegedly told of the reason for her detention in custody, and what she said in the prison conversations with her parents.

In fact, it's somewhat ironic that I joined PMF partly in order to address this issue. Other parts of the book I'd just read had persuaded me of Knox's/Sollecito's culpability (these parts of the book subsequently turned out to be incorrect), but even so it seemed obvious to me from the very beginning that the "confession/accusation" was improper and coerced. It was my attempt to argue that such a position on the "confession/accusation" was not only the best assessment of the evidence, but that it was still compatible with an underlying belief in guilt, that was the chief factor behind my "thanks for stopping by" dismissal from the clique. And, also ironically, it gave me a fascinating - and somewhat eye-opening - insight into the mindsets of most of the pro-guilt posters.

So when I see pro-guilt commentators still pointing to this set of statements and making asinine (to my mind) statements along the lines of "See! Knox lied! She accused her innocent boss! Who but a guilty person would do such a thing?!", I realise two things: firstly, such commentators clearly don't have the reasoning skills to look at this issue properly; and secondly, their minds are infested with confirmation bias based on a presumption of Knox's guilt. It's irrational, utterly non-sceptical, and more than a bit weird.

In contrast, I truly believe that most pro-acquittal commentators are making a concerted effort to view each issue of this case in an objective, rational, disinterested way. If such an approach leads to a belief in Knox's/Sollecito's culpability, then that's the conclusion we will reach. If - as is currently the case - this approach leads to a clear indication that there's nowhere near sufficient evidence for proof beyond a reasonable doubt (and in fact that the evidence points strongly towards Knox's/Sollecito's total non-involvement in the murder), then this is the conclusion we will reach. But it bears repeating that if somehow a new piece of evidence shows up that is clearly indicative of the culpability of Knox and/or Sollecito, then I (and, I believe, most other pro-acquittal commentators) would change our opinion readily and quickly. The same, unfortunately, is demonstrably not true of most pro-guilt commentators. And again, this speaks volumes to the difference between us.

* De Felice said this: "Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles."
 
Firstly, I said bye to Kevin.

That was palpably unclear.


Secondly, the irrelevant comment was clearly stated as my impression.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, but that's beside the point anyway. Your comment was a strange hand-grenade thrown into the thread, and had nothing to do with the topic under discussion. I believe it was deliberately thrown in to be inflammatory. My opinion only :)


I seem to recall your agreement with the irrelevancy of the discussion.

You're conflating my agreement with your view that it's irrelevant with the issue of why you found it necessary or relevant to make that comment in the first place. As I said, have you posted the same comment on any of the other threads? Because exactly the same argument applies to all of these too. So, have you?


I also note that your comments still border on "cool" and "witty".:rolleyes:

Do you mean that I keep making reference to others' posts being "cool" and "witty", or that my own posts have these attributes? If you mean the former, then yes, I continue to think that certain JREF posters are chiefly concerned with trying to exhibit these behaviour traits when posting in Knox-related threads. If you mean the latter, then I can only say that my chief concern is to discuss the case - I have no need whatsoever to appear as "cool" or "witty". Others do seem to have that need though. I wonder why?


I don't feel persecuted at all by this thread or the comments I have received.

It is only opinion after all and everyone has an opinion.

Good, and I agree. But this thread is for a discussion of the Knox/Sollecito trial process, and opinions directly related to that topic.


If you do not like my opinion, simply ignore me. That is after all what you suggest forum members do when confronted with a myriad of Knox threads.

Again, it's not a matter of me "not liking your opinion". What I'm questioning is why you want to participate in the Knox threads. If you're here to debate the issues surrounding the trials of Knox and Sollecito, then I'm more than happy to have a decent debate with you. But if you have another (or parallel) agenda to pursue, then I'm not so happy. And your "irrelevant" post clearly suggested to me that this might be the case.

Lastly, I suggested that forum members should ignore the Knox threads if they are either uninterested in the topic or dislike some of those posting on the topic. I suggested that it's totally irrational to complain about the presence (or number) of the threads, when the remedy is perfectly clear. My personal opinion is that many long-time JREFers are noticing the high popularity, high volume and high visibility of these threads - particularly the main discussion thread - and having feelings of jealousy, exclusion and being usurped. And I think I'm probably correct.
 
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That was palpably unclear.

How could it be unclear?

It was in a direct reply to Kevin's post with quote.

Good, and I agree. But this thread is for a discussion of the Knox/Sollecito trial process, and opinions directly related to that topic.

Well that's good that we can agree on something.
As you say the thread is for discussing Knox/Sollecito.

My comments are on this topic, albeit from the other side of the dividing fence.

When people ask me

"Did you have anything to contribute with regard to the facts of the Kercher murder? "

makes me think that the only contribution expected is

"OMG, Knox/Sollecito are innocent and the entire Italian Justice system is corrupt and incompetent. "
 
You're conflating my agreement with your view that it's irrelevant with the issue of why you found it necessary or relevant to make that comment in the first place.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn
Yes, it's totally probably irrelevant what any of us thinks about this case, in relation to influencing the actual progression and outcome of the case.


:)
 
Then why was Amanda Marie Knox not allowed to be solely responsible for Patrick's release? If her words the morning of the 6th were enough to get him arrested, then why were her words the evening of the 6th not enough to get him out? Please explain.

What???? Not allowed?? That doesn't make any sense.
I wouldn't expect them to release him only on a liar's say-so without thorough investigation, and that is what happened.

Lumumba would not have been arrested but for Amanda's false, wild accusation.
 
How could it be unclear?

It was in a direct reply to Kevin's post with quote.



Well that's good that we can agree on something.
As you say the thread is for discussing Knox/Sollecito.

My comments are on this topic, albeit from the other side of the dividing fence.

When people ask me "Did you have anything to contribute with regard to the facts of the Kercher murder? " makes me think that the only contribution expected is "OMG, Knox/Sollecito are innocent and the entire Italian Justice system is corrupt and incompetent. "


Nice straw man!

Especially since the posts that you'd made prior to the "irrelevant" post were on-topic and reasonable, and resulted in normal counter-argument responses.

There's an important thing to bear in mind here. Most of us arguing on the side of acquittal are doing so because that's what we believe, based on our (hopefully rational and objective) analysis of all the available evidence. It's not like we have been arbitrarily "assigned" the pro-acquittal side of the debate. When I debated at school, this was exactly what happened: a subject was chosen (e.g. "This house believes that God exists") and each team was arbitrarily assigned one of the two sides of the debate (i.e. for or against the motion).

So most of us arguing for acquittal here strongly believe not only that we are correct, but also that our position is based in logic, reason and a completely non-partisan approach. If you argue a contrary position - which is of course your complete prerogative - then it's incumbent on you to show how you defend your position. Therefore, for example, it's simply not good enough to say something like "Knox lied and accused an innocent man - only a guilty person would do such a thing", without actively addressing the reasoning behind a belief that this was the direct result of an improper and coercive police interrogation tactics. Or to say something like "But Sollecito's footprint was positively identified on the bathmat, made in Meredith's blood, therefore he must be guilty", without addressing the validity of this piece of evidence through a dispassionate, rational analysis.

In summary, most of us would be more than happy to engage in a polite, friendly, but sometimes-robust manner in a debate on the case. If you can pick holes in our arguments, that's totally fine - and even desirable in a way! I am perfectly willing to refine - or even totally change - my beliefs if I can reasonably be shown to be wrong.

So, fire away. :)
 
What???? Not allowed?? That doesn't make any sense.
I wouldn't expect them to release him only on a liar's say-so without thorough investigation, and that is what happened.

Lumumba would not have been arrested but for Amanda's false, wild accusation.

And I wouldn't expect them to keep Amanda and Raffaele in jail when they found out that there are DNA traces and other evidence incriminating only one person, Rudy Guede. Yet, they kept them in jail despite no evidence.
 
What???? Not allowed?? That doesn't make any sense.
I wouldn't expect them to release him only on a liar's say-so without thorough investigation, and that is what happened.

Lumumba would not have been arrested but for Amanda's false, wild accusation.


Any response on Perugia Police Chief de Felice's statement yet, in regard to its clear implication that the police "knew" of Lumumba's involvement before they sat down with Knox in the interrogation room?

Just to jog your memory, here's de Felice's statement again:

Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles.


To go through the logic again, de Felice states:

1) Knox made an admission of facts

2) The police knew (in advance) that the facts contained in this admission were correct

3) As a result of the facts in this admission - which the police knew in advance were correct - the police were able to arrest Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba

4) Contained within the body of facts that the police knew in advance of Knox's "buckling" must therefore have been the fact that Lumumba was involved.
 
What???? Not allowed?? That doesn't make any sense.
I wouldn't expect them to release him only on a liar's say-so without thorough investigation, and that is what happened.

Lumumba would not have been arrested but for Amanda's false, wild accusation.

The false and wild parts are clues that the cops, if they had more than 3 brain cells between then, should have easily recognized. Then again, as was just quoted above, she simply confirmed what the cops already believed (and were asking for).

I am reminded of one poster's despite list in reference to this both numbers 7 and 8 apply:

7. Complete denial that Amanda's misremembering of details could be anything but malicious lies despite the fact that they wouldn't gain her anything and despite the fact that others in this case suffered the same problems.

8. Complete denial that Amanda's false confession could possibly be the result of coercion from the police, despite knowing that LE were convinced from the get-go that she had planned to meet someone the night of the murder and would not budge from that notion, despite the fact that Amanda knew Patrick had a cast iron alibi, despite the fact that false confessions are a documented occurrence, despite the fact that the interrogation was strangely not recorded when Mignini states he recorded all the witness and roommate interrogations, despite her being denied a lawyer when she requested one, despite the fact that she immediately afterwards wrote that she was unsure of what she had told the police.
 
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It's such a pleasure, LondonJohn, to see you deconstruct every single pro guilt post. For the past few days I see you writing excellent posts in response to bucket's rather weird, yet so usual for PMFers, ones. Great job.
 
You're selectively choosing which parts of Guede's story to believe and which parts to disbelieve. And it appears that you are making the distinction based on no rational reasoning whatsoever. Why do you believe certain parts and not others?

The confrontation between the women was the trigger. Rudy is not the only source.
 
LondonJohn,

The irrelevancy to the outcome stands.

The debate can continue till the cows come home with no effect on the courts judgement.

My concern with the argument is as follows.

3 people were found guilty and convicted.

1 person appealed and had a reduction of sentence.

2 people filed appeals and those appeals are ongoing.

The DNA evidence was found by experts to be not reliable.

The court still needs to make a judgement on that.

How that will affect the other evidence remains to be seen.

If they are acquitted, then good for them.

If they are found guilty, then not so good for them.

I will respect the courts decision either way, but will you and the rest of the people arguing for acquittal?

Or, should the verdict be guilty, will this debate escalate into the next dimension of how wrong the courts were?
 
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