Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

This is exactly why I don't get too involved in this thread.

I asked a question based on what I read. It was not my claim that she is a psychopath.

Exactly. But other posters were responding as if you had. If I had been here when you first posted, I would have written what I wrote above -- that you are right, she was labeled, but that I disagree that she was labeled because of her behavior.

 

[Skwinty]

Exactly. But other posters were responding as if you had. If I had been here when you first posted, I would have written what I wrote above -- that you are right, she was labeled, but that I disagree that she was labeled because of her behavior.

Well, the people who labelled her as a psychopath only had her public behaviour in and out of the court room on which to base their diagnosis.

However unfair that may be, the labelling was widespread.

Do you know what the key identifiers to psychopathy are?

 

[Mary_H]

Well, the people who labelled her as a psychopath only had her public behaviour in and out of the court room on which to base their diagnosis.

Right -- they only knew what had been reported by the media. Not much of a basis for a diagnosis; much of what was reported was false.

However unfair that may be, the labelling was widespread.

Absolutely.

Do you know what the key identifiers to psychopathy are?

No, what?

 

[Skwinty]

Right -- they only knew what had been reported by the media. Not much of a basis for a diagnosis.



Absolutely.



No, what?

Google is your friend.

 

[Mary_H]

Google is your friend.

So you don't know either?

 

[Skwinty]

So you don't know either?

Here you go, a starting point.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html


Now i will sit back and wait for the thin veiled insults as to the veracity of the people who compiled these checklists.

 

[Mary_H]

Here you go, a starting point.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html


Now i will sit back and wait for the thin veiled insults as to the veracity of the people who compiled these checklists.

I have nothing against the people or the checklists; they look good to me. What connections do you see to the case?

 

[Skwinty]

I have nothing against the people or the checklists; they look good to me. What connections do you see to the case?

Well, since I have not labelled her as a psychopath I cannot speak for anyone else.

I certainly do not consider myself qualified to make that assessment, but others do have the required skill and have made that assessment.

For example: I discussed this very issue with a friend of my wife.

This friend is a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist.

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

 

[Justinian2]

A Fatal Gift of Beauty contains details about one break-in I was not familiar with:



And from the timeline:



How much evidence do you need to prosecute Rudy for burglary? I just don't get it.

I told my barber that I had been the victim of over a dozen felonies and that the police had investigated none. The next time I had my hair cut he told me he had been thinking about what I said. He started counting the times he had been the victim of a felony and also came up with a number of over a dozen. He also said that none of those felonies had been investigated.

It's NO surprise to me that Rudy got away with many break-ins and robberies. It's NO surprise that the Italian cops are like the American cops and vice-versa (frequently inept).

 

[Matthew Best]

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

If she was guilty, I suppose it would be reasonable to say she might be a psychopath.

As she isn't, it isn't.

 

[Justinian2]

A Fatal Gift of Beauty contains details about one break-in I was not familiar with:



And from the timeline:



How much evidence do you need to prosecute Rudy for burglary? I just don't get it.

I told my barber that I had been the victim of over a dozen felonies and that the police had investigated none. The next time I had my hair cut he told me he had been thinking about what I said. He started counting the times he had been the victim of a felony and also came up with a number of over a dozen. He also said that none of those felonies had been investigated.

It's NO surprise to me that Rudy got away with many break-ins and robberies. It's NO surprise that the Italian cops are like the American cops and vice-versa (inept).

My drug using & non working tenants were a veritable crime wave.

 

[Skwinty]

If she was guilty, I suppose it would be reasonable to say she might be a psychopath.

As she isn't, it isn't.

So the court has arrived at a decision.

 

[Mary_H]

Well, since I have not labelled her as a psychopath I cannot speak for anyone else.

I certainly do not consider myself qualified to make that assessment, but others do have the required skill and have made that assessment.

For example: I discussed this very issue with a friend of my wife.

This friend is a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist.

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

But again, her conclusion is based only on what she learned from the media, not from meeting Amanda, interviewing her or testing her. She might as well be talking about another person.

Many of us on this thread have been through the psychopath argument several times before, and can provide plenty of examples of Amanda's behavior that dispute the items on the checklists, as well as examples of extremely pro-social behavior on Amanda's part.

But now I have stayed up way too late and must depart. Thanks for the conversation, Sqwinty.

 

[Matthew Best]

So the court has arrived at a decision.

No, it hasn't. That's exactly the point.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Well, since I have not labelled her as a psychopath I cannot speak for anyone else.

I certainly do not consider myself qualified to make that assessment, but others do have the required skill and have made that assessment.

For example: I discussed this very issue with a friend of my wife.

This friend is a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist.

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

Bah. Someone could come up with superficial reasons to say a Baby Ruth bar is a dog turd. But it's not.

Criminal psychopaths have life-long habits that are not found in Amanda Knox's history.

 

[Katody Matrass]

This friend is a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist.

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

Interesting, what was it in the first trial proceedings that led her to that diagnosis?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

peppercorns and cockroach poop

Well, since I have not labelled her as a psychopath I cannot speak for anyone else.

I certainly do not consider myself qualified to make that assessment, but others do have the required skill and have made that assessment.

For example: I discussed this very issue with a friend of my wife.

This friend is a forensic psychologist and psychiatrist.

She arrives at the same conclusion based on the first trials proceedings.

skwinty,

I would like more specifics on which words or actions your wife's friend examined.* I am surprised that a professional forensic psychologist or psychiatrist would offer any opinion without directly examining the subject. I have to ask whether that is considered good professional ethics.

But there is a second problem. In assessing Ms. Knox's behavior, one has to sort the peppercorns from the cockroach poop. With great reluctance I must bring up the cartwheels issue again because it is a good illustration. According to some accounts, she was doing yoga poses when an officer approached and commented on her flexibility and may have asked her if she could do the splits. She did. More than a year later an officer testifies about cartwheels and splits, implying that this was spontaneous behavior (I suspect the gymnastics were done in response to an officer who was sent over to distract her while Raffaele was being questioned).

The Italian court system said (during the pretrial phase) that she displayed no grief at Meredith's death, which was contradicted by evidence at the trial. Some claimed that she sat on Raffaele's lap at the station. I have heard that Raffaele pulled her down to stop her pacing. I'll acknowledge that the "All you need is love" t-shirt worn over her regular clothes was bad judgment. I don't think that one should criticize her for smiling briefly at her friends in the courtroom; but I would darned tempted to criticize any photographer who only snapped pictures of her smiling. We could discuss some examples of editorializing with photography if you like. I have heard from one person present on some court dates that her demeanor was serious. To sum up, my position is that she and Yogi Berra could both claim, ""I Really Didn't Say Everything I Said."
ETA
My previous comments that details of Amanda's intimate life were incorrectly reported still apply, as do my comments about the GIGO principle.
*With respect to your final sentence, if your wife's friend is using the guilty verdict at the trial of first instance for a diagnosis of Ms. Knox, then will he or she change his or her diagnosis if the trial of second instance finds them innocent?

 

[komponisto]

Question for LondonJohn

Since LondonJohn has evidently seen the actual paper describing the T_lag study cited earlier, I'm hoping he might be able to offer some insight into some of the details, which have become relevant in my discussion with Rolf Nelson:

The gated study you cited shows 81.5 minutes using unknown-to-me methods, perhaps the meal was larger or different from the other studies...
Unfortunately the gated 81-minute median study isn't currently helpful in this regard, because I have to ask myself, why was this study 81 minutes, instead of the others that were 25 or 10 or 40 minutes? But if we can find out whatever X factor increased it to 81 minutes, then might be able to judge how much of that X factor we had in our case, and whether we had more or less X factor than in the study.

Incidentally, I should note that the distribution of other human variables (such as female heights, as pointed out by Rolf) argues against taking the normal distribution model too literally for estimating probabilities of extreme values; in other words, LJ's "cautious" estimate is probably to be preferred. (Actually, I haven't even technically updated on the stomach evidence at all, since I still generally use my December 2009 estimate of 0.1% probability of guilt, which didn't take time of death into account. Properly updating -- cautiously, as per LJ -- should decrease that to around 0.001%; although at this level of confidence we're getting close to the breaking point for the reliability of things like the computer evidence.)

 

[Diocletus]

A Fatal Gift of Beauty contains details about one break-in I was not familiar with:



And from the timeline:



How much evidence do you need to prosecute Rudy for burglary? I just don't get it.

No, no, no. Don't you see? This is evidence that Rudy didn't break in to Meredith's flat. Obviously, there was no cat there, so Rudy (the "cat burglar") possibly, therefore probably, indeed certainly, didn't break into Meredith's flat. Therefore, the break-in was obviously staged . . . by Amanda . . . who therefore killed Meredith . . . for sex.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a person who interacted with her

Bah. Someone could come up with superficial reasons to say a Baby Ruth bar is a dog turd. But it's not.

Criminal psychopaths have life-long habits that are not found in Amanda Knox's history.

Charlie,

I agree. Riccardo Stagliano seemed skeptical of Amanda in the article "Seattle in the World of Amanda," yet he reported:
Quote
If she’ll be freed earlier, one who is ready to hire her right away is Rick Kirsten. She worked for this art gallery owner for two months. but he’s betting on her qualities, as if he has known her forever. “I put an ad, I had 31 applications and I chose her. She used to finish her work in half the time and she would ask for more. And she knew how to deal with people”. His favorite episode-that Amanda’s parents recommended he tell me is about a 8-10 years old girl that seemed to be lost in the crowd at the gallery.

“I was getting ready to go to take care of her, but a client stopped me, and Amanda was there already and the child was happily laughing.”
Endquote
I don't particularly have a high regard for this reporter, but unless his reporting on this incident is incorrect, it is difficult to square with the psychopath label.