Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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RoseMontague said:
Raffaele is innocent and so is the Knox girl.

It really doesn't make a difference to me if someone is only reasonably certain of that. Reasonable doubt on guilt has long since passed and we are in the realms of degree of certainty of innocence for most here.

I am not sure if it really makes much of a difference to anybody on this thread on the pro-innocence side.

Does it make a difference from the pro-guilt side?

It's not like I see a lot of those that believe in guilt trying to convince those that are only reasonably certain of innocence that they are wrong.
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Exactly. It makes no difference whatsoever to me, even though I'm still not intellectually prepared to state with any certainty that Knox and Sollecito were definitely totally innocent.

The main problem will arise upon their acquittals, when the pro-guilt community will inevitably adopt the OJ Simpson line of reasoning: i.e. they definitely participated in the murder, but they got off either on a technicality or because of an irrational judicial panel. But at that point, I will simply be laughing at people who try to make that claim. The two cases are utterly incomparable from a "weight of evidence" point of view, and the socio-political/racial influences on the juries are also entirely different. Simpson probably killed his wife and Ron Goldman, but got away with it owing to a biased jury (coupled with extremely poor prosecutors). But Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted for the reason why most people are acquitted: the evidence is clearly insufficient to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Piktor has conducted a scrupulously robust and accurate (:D) experiment over on .org to duplicate the conditions surrounding the recovery of the bra clasp and the dirt on the gloves. He comes to some equally robust and scientifically-defensible results, which certainly look extremely valid and non-partisan to me. I highly recommend a visit to see the results. They are right up there with SA's groundbreaking mop and lamp experiments.
 
Kokomani was the olive-thrower, BTW

Lothian,

My list of wrongfully convicted individuals was an appropriate answer to anyone who trusts that courts get it right 100% of the time (one sees this surprisingly frequently at JREF).* Despite comment #1013 (which could be taken that way), you have made it clear that you do not subscribe to this view. I trust that you understand the difference between being found guilty in the first trial and being found guilty in the second trial and at the supreme court, if such events come to pass. I am glad that we are on the same page, but your false assumptions about me in comment #1026 took me some effort to correct. I did not deal with all of them in detail, nor do I intend to spend any more time doing so or swatting away condescending references to Coco the clown.

I said previously that properly testing the putative semen stain and opening the knife between the handle and blade (if possible) might change my opinion on the case, which is that the odds of their innocence are very high. My revised position would obviously depend on the outcome of the two tests. If you want to talk about any of the evidence in a sarcasm-free way, I am all for it. If you do not, then I do not plan on responding any further.
*as well as a good start toward differentiating between legal guilt and factual guilt (or culpability, if one prefers that term).
 
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Incidentally, the unscientific and illogical "Google-de-gook" researchers (how the worm has turned!) among the pro-guilt crowd are still trying heroically to shore up Stefanoni's position. There are two specific things that they still don't seem to realise about the whole lab contamination issue: firstly, unless Stefanoni's lab employed the extremely rigorous cleaning/sterilisation procedures such as UV sterilisation, which are demanded when handling low-template samples (and there's every reason to believe that it didn't have these in place), then it's entirely possible that tiny quantities of Meredith's DNA could have remained within the machines. And secondly, an absence of positive pressure ventilation (required as a bare minimum when working with low-template samples) means that even a speck of dust floating around in the air from one of Meredith's samples in the lab might have got into the machine.

Oh and of course there's a third possibility: Stefanoni and Comodi were lying (or at least mendaciously exaggerating) about the whole "6 day" and "12 day" quarantine periods. I wouldn't rule that out at this stage, given what else we now know about the working practices of these two people.
 
halides1 said:
Lothian,

My list of wrongfully convicted individuals was an appropriate answer to anyone who trusts that courts get it right 100% of the time (one sees this surprisingly frequently at JREF). Despite comment #1013 (which could be taken that way), you have made it clear that you do not subscribe to this view. I trust that you understand the difference between being found guilty in the first trial and being found guilty in the second, if that comes to pass. I am glad that we are on the same page, but your false assumptions about me in comment #1026 took me some effort to correct. I did not deal with all of them in detail, nor do I intend to spend any more time doing so or swatting away condescending references to Coco the clown.

I said previously that properly testing the putative semen stain and opening the knife between the handle and blade (if possible) might change my opinion on the case, which is that the odds of their innocence are very high. My revised position would obviously depend on the outcome of the two tests. If you want to talk about any of the evidence in a sarcasm-free way, I am all for it. If you do not, then I do not plan on responding any further.
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No, no! Lothian got it all correct, and was arguing entirely in good faith! It was all my fault for being an aggressive attack dog and also for misinterpreting your position!
 
According to a recent poll, 68 percent of the people of Massachusetts believe that Amanda will get off. The remainder might believe that Amanda is innocent, but will be found guilty. I think there is more faith in Amanda's innocence then the Italian courts.

If the Italian system required that eleven jurists unanimously believe in guilt in order for Amanda to be convicted, I would already be celebrating Amanda's freedom.

I have 100% faith in Amanda. However, I have much lower faith in the Italian judicial system and people in general. No guilter has increased my faith in mankind, to say the least.

If I were Amanda, I would be scared even if there was a 99 percent chance of freedom. I believe the probability is high that Amanda will be freed, but not as high as 99 percent.
 
LondonJohn said:
Nope. Nor do they want to tell you why Meredith didn't call her mother back after the aborted 8.56pm call (when Meredith religiously called her sick mother every day, but hadn't yet called on that day), but instead apparently (according to the 11.30+ ToD narrative) lounged around messing with her mobile phone and generally doing nothing at all. Nor do they want to tell you why Meredith didn't remove from her bag the textbook she had borrowed to read that evening - with the promise to return it the following morning - in these supposed two and a half hours between arriving home and being attacked.

Nor, for that matter, do they want to tell you how the state of Filomena's room is apparently exclusively consistent with a staged break-in (because in fact it's entirely consistent with a real break-in).

Nor do they want to tell you that the bathmat partial print is matchable with "millimetre accuracy" to Sollecito's reference print (and completely excluded from matching Guede's print), because the merest glance at decent photos of that bathmat will tell anyone that a) conducting millimetre-accurate measurements of that print on that mat is both ridiculous and impossible, and b) it's clear that that the print matches Guede's reference print at least as much as - if not more than - it matches Sollecito's.

And nor do they want to tell you that the mixed-DNA from the bathroom sink was clear evidence that Knox's DNA and Meredith's blood DNA were deposited at the same time, because the crime scene video tells the whole world just how terribly these specimen swabs were collected - in long smearing motions that picked up everything some 2-3 inches either side of the small dilute blood droplets. The truth, of course, is that it's just as likely - if no more so - that Knox's DNA on those swabs came from gum or inner cheek cells that were sloughed off during toothbrushing and rinsed out into the sink, and the smearing collection technique picked up some of these cells along with Meredith's blood.
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They are all good points, but I haven't seen the hilited point made before. Certainly helps establish an early Tod.
 
LondonJohn said:
Piktor has conducted a scrupulously robust and accurate (:D) experiment over on .org to duplicate the conditions surrounding the recovery of the bra clasp and the dirt on the gloves. He comes to some equally robust and scientifically-defensible results, which certainly look extremely valid and non-partisan to me. I highly recommend a visit to see the results. They are right up there with SA's groundbreaking mop and lamp experiments.
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Reminds me of Michael.net's wine and cake mix theory for mixed blood.

Seriously now, anyone that watches the crime scene videos will quickly see the ideal environment for contamination. I am looking for a handbook that says it is recommended to gift wrap evidence using wrapping paper found on the scene.

Stefanoni's actions are indefensible. Any child could find the errors made by investigators easier than solving the riddle on the back of their coco puffs.
 
LondonJohn said:
had she come home at 9pm and had not been confronted until after 11pm;

6) the fact that Meredith had seemingly neither taken out the textbook that she had borrowed from an English friend (and which she was going to return the following day)
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LJ,

I believe the book was on her bed. With the position of the tote bag on the floor by the window it is likely that she came home, took the book and other items she needed out of the bag and hung the tote bag on the back of the desk chair. The tote bag was probably knocked onto the floor during the struggle by the desk where the chair was shoved into the desk ripping the paper under one of the chair legs.

 
With the book and other articles on the bed, it appears that the Duvet was therefore not on the bed when Meredith came home.
 
Justinian2 said:
According to a recent poll, 68 percent of the people of Massachusetts believe that Amanda will get off. The remainder might believe that Amanda is innocent, but will be found guilty. I think there is more faith in Amanda's innocence then the Italian courts.

If the Italian system required that eleven jurists unanimously believe in guilt in order for Amanda to be convicted, I would already be celebrating Amanda's freedom.

I have 100% faith in Amanda. However, I have much lower faith in the Italian judicial system and people in general. No guilter has increased my faith in mankind, to say the least.

If I were Amanda, I would be scared even if there was a 99 percent chance of freedom. I believe the probability is high that Amanda will be freed, but not as high as 99 percent.
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I'm sure Amanda and Raffaele remain very scared. They should never have been convicted in the first place so why trust the system? The CV report changed their chances dramatically though. The way they have been looking in court I would say they have allowed themselves to be hopeful. I hope justice doesn't disappoint them again. I don't think it will. This is no longer the possibly, indeed probably court. Patrizia Stefanoni and Comodi are called on their paperwork.
 
Up to 70 % of British men and half of all European men are related to the Egyptian Pharoah Tutankhamen said genetists in Switzerland. Scientists at Zurich based iGENEA reconstructed the DNA of the boy pharoah.
The results showed that King Tut belonged to a gender profile group to which more than 50% of all men in Western Europe belong, indicating they share a common ancestor.
 
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If you go to -

2. The staging of a breakin and burglary in Filomena's room

on the latest crazy powerpoint demo on True Justice For My Website, there are 4 photos showing the impossibility of someone climbing up the wall to Filomena's window.
The top left hand photo of the 4 makes it look very inviting and really easy to climb up to though.

Just like the photos on IIP that show the guy climbing up there on the top ledge of the window below, and how simple it is.

The moral of the story as usual according to TJFMW seems to be 'there is only one person who could have broken that window and staged the breakin, and that is Amanda Knox,' just like Massei told 'em...

Ignoring the rather obvious fact that climbing through second story windows is the modus operandi of the burglar who left large traces of his presence in the murder room...(TJFMW also kindly included a photo of the neatly stacked glass on the sill that was placed to one side as he was getting ready to climb through, too which conclusively ends any debate on whether the breakin was staged anyway)

Staged breakin my a**
 
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pilot padron said:
Oh Dear, OMG, Oh Dear

How could Judge Hellman not pay appropriate acclaim,homage and heed to the game changing 'get out of jail immediately', (or at least at any hour or at least to house arrest), information posted in so many of the 58,345+ posts here and confirmed here by:

1) A Library Card Holder
2) A Googler
3) A teacher of 7th grade *gifted* students
4) a communications engineer
5) A Vertical Gardener
6) A Veterinarian
7) A) self produced, self submitted You Tube
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Just for fun.... Who is pilot padron talking about?

1. London John
2.
3. Kevin Lowe
4.
5. Mark Waterbury
6. Rolfe
7. Bruce Fisher


Who are the others?

Btw Pilot, Mark Waterbury hasn't posted in the - 58,345+ posts - so how did they confirm it here?
 
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Fine said:
Kaosium,

An interesting statement within the November 15, 2007 news report you linked, HERE........

"Crucial laboratory tests are also currently underway on strands of hair found in Meredith's left hand, which police believe may provide a clue as to who was with Meredith when she was murdered."

Hmmm. If true, those strands of "hair" found in Meredith's left hand weren't lost after all, contrary to Barbie's assurances to the PMF/Skep site via email a month ago.

///
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Fine,

You are very observant for finding things like this. You have found inconsistencies several times now. Well done.
 
capillary electrophoresis cycle time

Komponisto,

The time from one injection to the next is about 30 minutes for the ABI 310 capillary electrophoresis instrument. The ABI 3100 has sixteen capillaries, instead of one, which is what the ABI 310 has. This information comes from John Butler's textbook, pp. 357-358. Let me know if you need more information.
 
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billyryan said:
"are the defence team any good" Stefanoni takes the stand in September the defence lawyers have five weeks to prepare she should and she must be shredded,she lied about testing the luminol prints for blood she lied about the size of the DNA sample on the knife,she is probably lying about the negative controls and also about the elapsed time between the tests,this woman has deliberately and knowingly caused their innocent clients to spend four years in prison,when this b***h takes the stand the defence lawyers must deliver
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billyryan,

Amen brother. Let the b***h take the stand. It would be awesome if Giulia Bongiorno asked her "Why did you gift wrap a Mop and walk it around the cottage?" If the bra clasp discovery video made the courtroom laugh imagine the reaction the mop video would get. I am serious that the defense should play it. It is so clearly not proper protocol that it would be impossible for Stefanoni to defend herself against it.

halides1, you did email a copy to Bongiorno didn't you?
 
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Bruce Fisher said:
This is how TJMK shows respect for Meredith Kercher. This is Kermit's way of showing readers that Meredith's DNA is on the blade. But remember, it's all for Meredith!

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/FLlHp.jpg[/qimg]
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It's also wrong.

It shows the DNA specks, implanted by TJFMW, to be on the edge of the blade as would happen for a real murder weapon. Steff's disappearing trace was supposedly about a quarter of the way up the flat surface of the blade.
 
LondonJohn said:
Ah yes, I forgot about Guede's Skype call in my list of reasons for a pre-9.30pm ToD.

there are a few notable time stamps during the conversation, which have potentially high significance. The first one is that Guede states that he met up with Meredith by 9pm - which is of course when Meredith got home from her friends' house. And the second one is that he claims to have heard Meredith scream (while he was sitting on the toilet in the large bathroom) at around "9.20-9.30".
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And as anyone familiar with the case know, Rudy Guede is the one person involved who certainly knows exactly what happened when the murder occurred.

If he says 9:20 - 9:30. He's right. You can ignore all the other lies he has told (or was fed, and sort of told to say, is another way to put it)

As far as the TOD goes. Rudy's right. That's it. There is no reason for, or gain in him lying. It's one thing he would sit there and reply to honestly, without being wary of any need for obfuscation of the event.
 
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