Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Lothian,

Although convicted in the trial of first instance, Knox and Sollecito still enjoy the presumption of innocence. With respect to your question, the answer for Billy Wayne Cope, Cameron Todd Willingham, and Gary Leiterman is probably yes. The answer for the Norfolk Four and the West Memphis Three is almost certainly yes. The answer for Stefan Kiszko, Timothy Cole, Ron Williamson, Dennis Fritz, and Patricia Stallings is certainly yes. MOO.


Halides, Lothian has admitted (in the thread in Community) that he's trolling for the lulz. Which is entirely legitimate activity, if that's what floats his boat. It doesn't mean anyone has to respond to him.

Rolfe.
 
Did Judge Hellman agree that the time of death will be reviewed along the lines of Meredith bra clasp and knife found in Sollecito’s apartment?

What happens if for example time of death and other disputed evidence from the first level trial are not reviewed during the appeal can the jurists still consider this evidence or anything else from the first level trial?

Yes, Hellmann will have to determine a TOD.

With Curatalo gone, 11:30 doesn't make sense anymore.

Also, 10:30-11:15 is out, due to the broken down car.

Then, we have the phone activity at 10:00-10:15. So, 10:00 is a TOD bookend.

9:00 is the other bookend.

Therefore, Hellmann will conclude that Kercher died between 9 and 10. It's very simple, really.

If he wants to put a finer point on it, he will go to stomach contents and/or Rudy's Skype. They point to around 9:15.
 
If the promised screensaver logs close off the entire 21:00-6:00 overnight period I'll accept that as sufficient proof of factual innocence that I'd shove the probability of them being involved down to the same kind of likelihood as me winning the lotto, or telepathy being real.

Giobbi has telepathy. This has been proved in Massei's court-thing...
 
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Hi Kevin
The more I followed the case, the less I believed in guilt. Now I don't know why they are still in prison. Do you know if the defense has requested house arrest? The defense seemed weak in the first trial. Their lawyers should be aggressively advocating for them in my opinion. The prosecution is aggressive in trying to save face, but they have been exposed and this trial should not drag on until October.

I would rate the defence lawyers at somewhere around 18% of the trouble the defendents have had in this case. They could ask a probing question or suggest something meaningful once in a while. The independent experts testimony along with anything and everything else, was an opportunity for them to look smart and say something clever for the very first time in a very long trial ...

But, it always escapes them doesn't it ?

Ughhhhh. With respect, this subject has been discussed so very many times on here that I find it somewhat hard to believe that you can't understand the process. I'll have another go at explaining it.

In a criminal trial, there are usually a number of distinct phases, which take place in a specific order. First come the opening statements, in which prosecutors and defence counsel (if they want to) both outline the case that they intend to present to the court. Next comes the evidence and testimony phase, in which physical evidence is introduced, and testimony is heard (together with examination and cross-examination of those testifying). Importantly, no argument is allowed during this phase.

After the evidence/testimony phase comes the argument phase. In this section, all the parties make arguments in favour of their respective positions, based upon the evidence and testimony gathered during the previous phase. And after the argument phase comes jury (or judicial panel) deliberations, followed by the verdict, and sentencing if necessary.

So that's how a criminal trial broadly works. I hope that it's fairly easy to understand what I've just written. That's essentially what happened in Massei's court, and it's what is currently happening in Hellmann's court. In other words, the appeal trial follows the same sequence of stages. I hope I'm still making sense.

So, with that in mind, consider that we are now in the evidence/testimony phase of the appeal trial. .

There seems to be one rule for the prosecution and another for the defence as far as interjections, allowing inadmissible evidence like the Lumumba slander testinmony, witness confessions etc etc etc, goes in this trial.
The effect of that recedes in Hellman's court.
 
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Lothian,

Although convicted in the trial of first instance, Knox and Sollecito still enjoy the presumption of innocence. <snip>.

From what I am reading here, the majority of posters are of the opinion that the case (for guilt) is falling apart - coupled with your point about their presumed innocence, why are the defence not pushing for release from prison (or maybe why are they not succeeding)? I gather there's roughly another month of this trial still to go so it seems harsh to keep them in if in the eyes of the law they are innocent and if some (most?) of the crucial evidence for guilt has been shown to be lacking.

Can anyone who is more closely following events explain this apparent disconnect?
 
Lothian,

Although convicted in the trial of first instance, Knox and Sollecito still enjoy the presumption of innocence. With respect to your question, the answer for Billy Wayne Cope, Cameron Todd Willingham, and Gary Leiterman is probably yes. The answer for the Norfolk Four and the West Memphis Three is almost certainly yes. The answer for Stefan Kiszko, Timothy Cole, Ron Williamson, Dennis Fritz, and Patricia Stallings is certainly yes. MOO.
....and they laughed at CoCo the clown.

You are taking the wrong starting point. You are starting with Amanda Knox being innocent and that is preventing you undertaking any rational analysis.

You see a guilty verdict as questionable (wrong) but a not guilty verdict as 100% proof she is innocent.

I could give you a list of guilty people found not guilty. The cases you list mean nothing.

The fact is innocent people sometimes are found guilty and guilty people are sometimes found not guilty.

If Amanda Knox is found not guilty don’t make the mistake of assuming that means she is innocent. The beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof required in most criminal jurisdictions is high. The prosecution have a higher bar to jump over than the defence. Logic dictates there is far more chance of a guilty Amanda being freed than an innocent Amanda found guilty.
 
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Did Judge Hellman agree that the time of death will be reviewed along the lines of Meredith bra clasp and knife found in Sollecito’s apartment?

What happens if for example time of death and other disputed evidence from the first level trial are not reviewed during the appeal can the jurists still consider this evidence or anything else from the first level trial?

They all just get together and sing the old Perugia team song...
 
From what I am reading here, the majority of posters are of the opinion that the case (for guilt) is falling apart - coupled with your point about their presumed innocence, why are the defence not pushing for release from prison (or maybe why are they not succeeding)? I gather there's roughly another month of this trial still to go so it seems harsh to keep them in if in the eyes of the law they are innocent and if some (most?) of the crucial evidence for guilt has been shown to be lacking.

Can anyone who is more closely following events explain this apparent disconnect?

They will be let out under some duress for the confusion they have caused the local police constabulary, prosecution teams and Perugian courts by discovering the murder that Rudy obviously did...

Someone's gotta pay for the confusion they caused them folk. And it's them.
 
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Halides, Lothian has admitted (in the thread in Community) that he's trolling for the lulz. Which is entirely legitimate activity, if that's what floats his boat. It doesn't mean anyone has to respond to him.

Rolfe.
That I enjoy pointing out crap arguments, does not mean that the arguments are not crap.

......and only two posts in the thread (this is the third) I will be kicked out of troll soc.:o
 
Point of information. My medical expertise may be in the field of pretty much every mammal on the planet bar one, as opposed to being confined to just the one mammal. However I do have higher postgraduate degrees including a PhD.

And I am regularly called on by the courts to give forensic medical evidence in criminal prosecutions, and that includes evidence as to time of death.

Just to keep the record semi-straight.

Funny, you know. When I was ignoring these threads, one or two of the guilters PMed me and asked me to contribute, because of my expertise, and the respect in which I am apparently held in the forum. Now that I am contributing, somehow "veterinarian" has become a term of insult.

Rolfe.


Don't worry about pilot padron. His/her "argument" on this issue is incoherent, unrelated to the actual case under discussion, and laced with unhealthy doses of ignorance and confirmation bias. And it's rather agricultural too. He cannot substantiate his position that our collective argument on ToD is wrong. Therefore he has no valid argument, and is merely resorting to name calling and attacking the arguer rather than the argument.

But I'm always willing - and in fact happy - to be disproved. So if good old pilot can put forward a decent rationale as to why the autopsy evidence (coupled with the testimony on when the pizza meal began) doesn't clearly imply a ToD well before 10pm, I'll be really happy to hear it. I'm waiting......

PS I wonder if stilicho will ever again show up on the main thread to discuss this case. I'm sure he'd have lots to talk about with you regarding ToD :)
 
Lothian,

Although convicted in the trial of first instance, Knox and Sollecito still enjoy the presumption of innocence. With respect to your question, the answer for Billy Wayne Cope, Cameron Todd Willingham, and Gary Leiterman is probably yes. The answer for the Norfolk Four and the West Memphis Three is almost certainly yes. The answer for Stefan Kiszko, Timothy Cole, Ron Williamson, Dennis Fritz, and Patricia Stallings is certainly yes. MOO.


Ah, you see what Lothian is doing here is trying to be witty and "cool" by proposing a false corollary for effect. There is, of course, absolutely no logical connection between these two arguments:

"Being acquitted is actually totally synonymous with exoneration." (my statement)

and

"...being found guilty is actually totally synonymous with completely innocent and a grave miscarriage of justice." (his/her "witty" statement)

In fact, the logical corrolary of my statement might more accurately be something along the lines of "Being found guilty is totally synonymous with complete factual culpability". Except that of course this is not the corollary, since occasionally people are incorrectly found guilty. One might argue that people are sometimes incorrectly found not-guilty as well (and that's undoubtedly occasionally true), but the scales of justice demand that such people are not required to undergo a review of that decision (unless new incriminating evidence comes to light).

In short, Lothian has added nothing to the debate except a failed attempt to seem amusing and aloof. Sad really.
 
Don't worry about pilot padron. His/her "argument" on this issue is incoherent, unrelated to the actual case under discussion, and laced with unhealthy doses of ignorance and confirmation bias. And it's rather agricultural too. He cannot substantiate his position that our collective argument on ToD is wrong. Therefore he has no valid argument, and is merely resorting to name calling and attacking the arguer rather than the argument.
:id:


No wonder these threads get moderated.

Quick tip. Posts are looked at in isolation. You may have actually detailed his/her arguements and explained why they are wrong elsewhere but the above post to me looks like a classic rule 12 breach.
 
unwarranted assumptions

....and they laughed at CoCo the clown.

You are taking the wrong starting point. You are starting with Amanda Knox being innocent and that is preventing you undertaking any rational analysis.

You see a guilty verdict as questionable (wrong) but a not guilty verdict as 100% proof she is innocent.
SNIP
If Amanda Knox is found not guilty don’t make the mistake of assuming that means she is innocent
SNIP
Logic dictates there is far more chance of a guilty Amanda being freed than an innocent Amanda found guilty.

Lothian,

They should have laughed at Koko(mani) the clown-witness...

I snipped out the true statements; each item that now remains in your comments above is false. You make the mistakes of repeatedly conflating legal and factual guilt, of assuming I believe a not guilty verdict means innocent (which is related to the previous mistake you made), and of assuming I have not made a rational analysis.

What I believe is that physics and physiology in Perugia work the same as they do in Peoria. Do you question the validity of my analysis of the bra clasp DNA? Do you find fault with what LondonJohn and Kevin_Lowe wrote about stomach contents and the TOD? If so, then let's hear your critiques.
 
Ah, you see what Lothian is doing here is trying to be witty and "cool" by proposing a false corollary for effect. There is, of course, absolutely no logical connection between these two arguments:

"Being acquitted is actually totally synonymous with exoneration." (my statement)

and

"...being found guilty is actually totally synonymous with completely innocent and a grave miscarriage of justice." (his/her "witty" statement)
His.

In fact, the logical corrolary of my statement might more accurately be something along the lines of "Being found guilty is totally synonymous with complete factual culpability". Except that of course this is not the corollary, since occasionally people are incorrectly found guilty. One might argue that people are sometimes incorrectly found not-guilty as well (and that's undoubtedly occasionally true), but the scales of justice demand that such people are not required to undergo a review of that decision (unless new incriminating evidence comes to light).
Well done. you got the point.
In short, Lothian has added nothing to the debate except a failed attempt to seem amusing and aloof. Sad really.
:D You are funny.
 
It's as Lisa said. If only people wouldn't respond to the trolls.

My own view is, if only the trolls had something better to do with their time.

Rolfe.
 
Another excellent post and what we have come to expect from you.

Do you think with Curatolo gone, can the defense also argue against how ludicrious the ToD advanced by the prosecution was in the first trial? And tie in the computer evidence that AK and RS were at home for the most likely actual ToD. Plus hold up to ridicule the moving target ToD was for Mignini during the various phases of the first trial. Can the defense introduce/mention the ToD finding of 10 PM or earlier in the Guede trial?


Why thank you :D

The answer to the first question is that they can indirectly attack it by implication by showing how extraordinarily improbable a ToD later than 10.30pm would be, and of course if the prosecutors still try and go for an 11.30+ ToD in the appeal trial, the defence can attack it directly and head-on.

I imagine that the defence lawyers will try to couple together all the factors pointing to a ToD shortly after 9pm. In addition to the medical evidence, there's also:

1) the failure of Meredith to retry the phone call to her mother after the 8.56pm aborted call - a hugely important factor in my opinion, given that her mother was in hospital with a serious condition, and Meredith made a point of calling every single day;

2) the fact that Meredith seemingly still had her jacket on when attacked;

3) the refutation of the "Meredith playing with her phone" nonsense - and the far more likely explanation of the 9.58pm and 10.00pm aborted calls (that they were made accidentally by the killer, as he was trying to turn off Meredith's handset);

4) the likely position of Meredith's handset at 10.13pm - some distance from the cottage and en route to the dumping site, according to cell connections - when the GPRS MMS message was received, and the likely reason that the incoming message was aborted (the killer aborted the message to silence the "incoming message" alert);

5) the fact that Meredith still had a load of damp washing in the machine, which one might expect her to have removed had she come home at 9pm and had not been confronted until after 11pm;

6) the fact that Meredith had seemingly neither taken out the textbook that she had borrowed from an English friend (and which she was going to return the following day), nor had she been online or made any phone calls - all of which would be unusual if she had got home at 9pm and not been confronted until after 11pm.

With regard to Mignini moving the ToD in his closing argument, I think that there's potential for the Supreme Court to look at this if it ever got that far. Although I understand that there's more latitude for this sort of thing to occur in the Italian system, it still seems that Massei should never have allowed Mignini to pull off this sleight-of-hand trick at the last moment. However, since my view is that the upshot of this appeal will be acquittal, I think this is a moot point.

And lastly, the defence can't directly reference the ToD finding of fact from Guede's trials (only the evidence/testimony from those trials is admissible in Hellmann's court - not the findings of fact or verdict), but they can reference the evidence upon which this finding of fact was made.
 
Well done. you got the point.

Nah - you don't get the point.

If a person is acquitted in a criminal trial, he/she is exonerated of the crimes with which they were charged. For example, OJ Simpson was found not-guilty of the crime of murdering his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, and as a result he was exonerated. Now, my belief (and that of many others) is that Simpson most likely did commit these murders. But that's a different matter altogether. He was exonerated legally, and could never be tried for those crimes again, unless significant new evidence came to light and the double-jeopardy law was relaxed (as it has been here in the UK). Although the Simpson situation is muddied by the fact that he was found liable in a civil court (on the balance of probabilities).

Anyhow, nothing detracts from the correct nature of my assertion that to be found not-guilty of a crime is to be essentially exonerated of that crime (everything else being equal). There are no grades of "not guilty" in most jurisdictions - except for in Scotland (and a couple of other places) where there is an option of "not proven". One could certainly argue that a "not proven" verdict is not tantamount to an exoneration, but that's not the situation we were discussing here.
 
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