Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Having seen and read Professor David Wilson in action, and observed his ability to appear to opine at an in-depth psychoanalytical level on literally dozens of crimes with which he's had absolutely zero personal involvement, I wouldn't say he has much professional credibility in the area of sound-bite media analysis whatsoever.

Judging by his published "views" on Knox and Sollecito, it looks like his "professional research" on this case may well have consisted of a morning's internet browsing followed by a half-hour delve into the bag of psychoanalytical media-friendly buzz-words for his "opinion".


This reminds me of Professor David Southall seeing Sally Clark's husband on TV, and writing to the police saying that he could tell it was actually him who had killed the children. He was an expert on child abuse, too. Steve Clark had an alibi, of course.

This is just "oh I heard some talking head who knows bugger-all about the case said something negative, yah boo sucks." Not much of a substitute for factual discussion.

How about the time of death, guys? How did Knox and Sollecito manage to kill Meredith before any of her pizza had transited to her duodenum? Unless there is an answer to that which doesn't require the suspension of the laws of physiology, I regard them both as innocent.

Rolfe.
 
....and they laughed at CoCo the clown.

You are taking the wrong starting point. You are starting with Amanda Knox being innocent and that is preventing you undertaking any rational analysis.

You see a guilty verdict as questionable (wrong) but a not guilty verdict as 100% proof she is innocent.

I could give you a list of guilty people found not guilty. The cases you list mean nothing.

The fact is innocent people sometimes are found guilty and guilty people are sometimes found not guilty.

If Amanda Knox is found not guilty don’t make the mistake of assuming that means she is innocent. The beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof required in most criminal jurisdictions is high. The prosecution have a higher bar to jump over than the defence. Logic dictates there is far more chance of a guilty Amanda being freed than an innocent Amanda found guilty.

I understand what you're getting at here, and on one level I definitely agree: there ought to be more guilty people getting off than there are innocent people imprisoned otherwise the system doesn't work the way they always say it does, and quite frankly would be rather barbaric in my opinion.

I also see in some cases where the person was acquitted and there's damn good reason to think they still did it. As has been noted the OJ case is one notorious one, and apparently the recent Casey Anthony case is another. I don't have any interest in court cases generally, two months or so of the ubiquitous OJ trial coverage circa '95 sent me fleeing in horror from the whole subject, and I came to the conclusion I'd rather watch a documentary on the mating habits of cockroaches than lawyers and other 'court-watchers' propounding daily on these cases.

However, as some thought it related in some way to this case, I came across some information about it, and from what I gather the poor child died and it took a month for her to say anything, instead saying something about a nanny that either didn't exist or they found and denied it, and went out partying. The 'explanation' for this was an unsubstantiated and apparently never even brought up in court (?) accusation she'd been abused as a child and taught to hide things. Let's just say 'I get it' in regards to why people might still think her guilty.

Another one might be Rubin Carter, the (in)famous story of The Hurricane, immortalized in a beautiful song by Bob Dylan. I vaguely recall this from his last trial as a kid, I came across the song as a teenager and thought it wonderful--then I actually found something out about the evidence against him. Let's just say I get that one too. There was some poetic license taken in that wonderful song methinks.

This one however is different, and it might well explain why the ones still promoting guilt don't ever want to talk about evidence anymore--because it all pretty much reveals just how disturbing this prosecution was on so many levels. Nor do any of the circumstances actually suggest guilt to a rational mind when put into context. Some might be suspicious at first glance, but just look into them and you might just find out the full story is actually either irrelevant, or makes you wonder about the ones who find it 'suspicious.'

My underlying point is this: this case is unlike those others, and in the long run there's just not going to be much mystery about what happened, or much of anyone who thinks them guilty. That there still is now is an artifact from the time when the only information available to most came from the police and prosecution. The case presented through the press was damning--and virtually entirely untrue. However a number of people congregated and talked about it for a year before the trial, which also lasted a year and found them guilty on the basis of disingenuous 'evidence' and they had almost 240 people online to 'celebrate' the conviction. There's only a fraction of them left now, and they sit around and do little more than dream up ways to twist things so that it's still possible to think them guilty and that they will be found guilty by the second trial.

The reality is, on the basis of the evidence it's damned deadly difficult to even put them at the scene of the crime (that's what the time of death argument is about) and once you get them there (or skip that step!) there's nothing in the murder room whatsoever to suggest they were involved, and most of the rest of the physical evidence amounts to the fact that Amanda lived there, or something done by Rudy Guede thought ambiguous enough to pretend was Raffaele or Amanda.

From a rational standpoint there shouldn't actually be people who are adamant about their guilt, maybe some still suspicious, but not much of anyone absolutely sure. However there ought to be--and is--a number of people pretty damn sure they're innocent, as that's what is actually suggested by the timeline, evidence, science, and known human behavior. No one has ever come up with a coherent and believable theory of the crime which actually employs evidence in the endeavor, and people have stopped trying, just as the ones who think them guilty stopped talking about the evidence long ago. It just serves to make them look silly for the most part, thus I don't blame them overmuch.

However a number of factors, such as what I mentioned above about the initial untrue information (most of which isn't even disputed by them anymore and ironically they were in part responsible for dispelling) combined with the length of time spent congregating, the closed nature of their environment, (by and large anyone arguing innocence is either banned or strictly controlled at the--all associated BTW--guilt sites) and the fact that sometimes people can be the most adamant about that what they actually have doubts about, serves to create the illusion that there's a significant number of people who still think them absolutely guilty and actually know something about the case. That just isn't true, and I strongly suspect it will become even less true the more exposure the case receives.

All the rest of those cases left one with a mystery about whodunit or how it happened if it wasn't them, this one already has the perpetrator the evidence suggests responsible behind bars, and Amanda and Raffaele are--and always were--leftovers from their mistaken first arrest where they made a huge display of themselves before they'd even received the forensics report. It just so happens they weren't too willing to admit their 'theory' of a sordid sex ritual involving three people that the prosecutor just made up out of whole cloth was wrong, so they pretended they were still right and threw the two college kids in with the burglar they caught doing things following standard investigatory procedures.
 
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It is not me that has the comprehension issues.

The first part of my post is not saying anything different to the second.

The points I have made are

  • You don't know for certain that Amanda Knox did not kill Meredeth Kercher.
  • Some people are found guilty of crimes they did not commit.
  • Some people commit crimes yet are found not guilty.

These seem to me to be very uncontroversial points.

It certainly looks like you do not disagree with any of them although you struggle to say so directly and instead have been focusing on a presumption of innocence. A totally irrelevant point to the ones I made.

The attitude here is very disappointing. When you aggressively attack people you agree with and accuse them of being trolls it is no wonder that those who you disagree with lose patience and leave.


Perhaps this is a good time to remind you of your original post to which I replied, and upon which all of this to-and-fro has been based. You said this:

....and they laughed at CoCo the clown.

You are taking the wrong starting point. You are starting with Amanda Knox being innocent and that is preventing you undertaking any rational analysis.

You see a guilty verdict as questionable (wrong) but a not guilty verdict as 100% proof she is innocent.

I could give you a list of guilty people found not guilty. The cases you list mean nothing.

The fact is innocent people sometimes are found guilty and guilty people are sometimes found not guilty.

If Amanda Knox is found not guilty don’t make the mistake of assuming that means she is innocent. The beyond reasonable doubt burden of proof required in most criminal jurisdictions is high. The prosecution have a higher bar to jump over than the defence. Logic dictates there is far more chance of a guilty Amanda being freed than an innocent Amanda found guilty.

And what's more, you said it in response to a post from halides. I don't even believe that halides shares supernaut's belief that "Knox is 100% innocent" - even though you clearly accused him of adopting such a position in this post. So you started off on the wrong foot, and things got worse from there.

Aside from all that, the fact remains that a person found not guilty of a crime must be considered innocent of that crime. This is a fundamental tenet of modern democratic jurisprudence. I completely understand your point about the person possibly not being factually innocent - but as I tire of pointing out, often nobody but the actual person him/herself knows this for certain.

Let me repeat a variation of an analogy that I used before to illustrate this point. Suppose that you lived in - say - San Francisco in 2005. Suppose that there was an unsolved murder in San Francisco from 2005, and that tomorrow the police knocked on your door and arrested you for the murder. It turns out that you had lived on the same street as the victim, and a car similar to the one you were known to own at the time was seen near the spot where the victim's body was dumped. Also let's suppose that you cannot account for your movements from the night of the murder, after all these years.

Now, let's suppose that you were charged with the murder and stood trial. I would guess that the prosecution might be unable to secure a conviction based on just the evidence listed above. And I therefore guess that you would be found not guilty. Naturally, your friends and your family would ask you: "Did you kill this guy", and you'd probably say "no" - whether you actually did kill him or not. Now, in such a scenario, should your friends and family assume that you are innocent, or should they assume that you might have been the murderer, but that you got off owing to insufficient evidence?

Logic and morality of course dictate that you should be presumed innocent. Only you would know for certain whether you were factually innocent - but that's actually unimportant.

So there we go. That's my position. And regarding your last paragraph, I could give the short answer and say that I couldn't care less what you think, or whether you're "disappointed" (so redolent of a primary school teacher's end-of-year report, don't you think?). But I would take issue at your accusation that I've called you a troll (I haven't), or that I've shown any aggression in my attacks. I do happen to think that you've been deliberately stirring things up a little to see what happens, but if that's what floats your boat, then so be it.

If someone comes to this thread and wants to debate sensibly and rationally about whether Knox and Sollecito should be convicted or acquitted, then I (and most other posters here) will be more than happy to engage in a robust but fair manner. The problem is, there are no such posters making these sorts of arguments. Don't you think that this might be because the pro-conviction position might just be intellectually untenable at this point, rather than the palpable nonsense that the "meanie paid bloggers at JREF" have bullied all the lovely, rational, reasonable pro-guilt crowd into despair and withdrawal from the arena?
 
Any and all video content (including from Youtube) can be 'downloaded' using the "downloadhelper" extension for Firefox. It is very easy to use and installs in seconds.

I know that and I bet most of the other users also know that, but downloading from YouTube means downloading many parts. For example, The Trials Of Amanda Knox is in 9 parts if I can recall correctly. I just prefer to have one long file, as I watch it on my home cinema:D Though it's not that big of a deal.
 
Oh Dear, OMG, Oh Dear

How could Judge Hellman not pay appropriate acclaim,homage and heed to the game changing 'get out of jail immediately', (or at least at any hour or at least to house arrest), information posted in so many of the 58,345+ posts here and confirmed here by:
1) A Library Card Holder
2) A Googler
3) (see question below)
4) a communications engineer
5) A Vertical Gardener
6) A Veterinarian
7) A) self produced, self submitted You Tube

Apologies if I missed any other holders of higher post graduate degrees and professionally renowned TOD pontificators from here.

RE your concluding question:
One cannot even imagine Judge Hellman could possibly ever overlook this in light of information from the above sources here.
But in that ever so remote 'idiot like' instance; yes, all the information from the appropriately PhD holders and fully professionally accredited experts from the first trial is thereby accepted as accurate and certainly can be used by jurors at this level.

But this is really no cause for concern.
After all, these same above sources have unequivocally proclaimed..."It is over" and the "truth has set them free"..... at any hour.:cool:

I sense you are not convinced by the TOD argument here. Perhaps you would like to give your reasons for that rather than attacking the qualifications you see in some posters here? I am also curious if the teacher you refer to has made his/her profession and/or personal information a matter of public record and indicated he/she is the same person as a poster here, if not I think you should probably withdraw that one.

Hellmann can take the same evidence and testimony and come to a different conclusion even if no new expert review is undertaken. That testimony by different experts is different and it is a matter of common sense that not everything they said was taken as accurate by the first court simply because in most case they can't all be right about something they don't agree on. Massei made a choice to agree with the prosecution experts and not the defense experts on almost every major issue. Hellmann is not going to agree that the knife and bra clasp evidence is reliable after his experts told him otherwise and I believe he is going to take a hard look at other questionable expert opinions put forward by the prosecution.

It is entirely possible that he will accept the argument the defense makes in the appeal on the TOD issue.
 
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Amanda was labelled a psychopath. Big deal. She was labelled "luciferina", she-devil, whore, "sex-killer", diabolic, manipulative etc.

Exactly. No ethical or rational professional in the mental health field would diagnose such a condition based on a few iffy news reports and some obviously incorrect information without even talking to the individual in question. They have no more credence than the Statement Analysis Dude or the Astrology God, in my opinion.
 
I sense you are not convinced by the TOD argument here. Perhaps you would like to give your reasons for that rather than attacking the qualifications you see in some posters here? I am also curious if the teacher you refer to has made his/her profession and/or personal information a matter of public record and indicated he is the same person as a poster here, if not I think you should probably withdraw that one.

Hellmann can take the same evidence and testimony and come to a different conclusion even if no new expert review is undertaken. That testimony by different experts is different and it is a matter of common sense that not everything they said was taken as accurate by the first court simply because in most case they can't all be right about something they don't agree on. Massei made a choice to agree with the prosecution experts and not the defense experts on almost every major issue. Hellmann is not going to agree that the knife and bra clasp evidence is reliable after his experts told him otherwise and I believe he is going to take a hard look at other questionable expert opinions put forward by the prosecution.

It is entirely possible that he will accept the argument the defense makes in the appeal on the TOD issue.


You're entirely correct. Yet some people still seem to have trouble comprehending how the appeal trial will proceed, particularly in regard to whether or not particular other pieces of evidence/testimony will be debated (the short answer is that they all will be debated in the argument phase). I also agree with you that each and every one of the important pieces of evidence that led to the guilty verdicts in Massei's court can easily (and successfully) be challenged by the defence in Hellmann's court.

BTW, there's a hilarious post by Michael on .net today, in which he pretends that he left JREF of his own volition :D
 
Exactly. No ethical or rational professional in the mental health field would diagnose such a condition based on a few iffy news reports and some obviously incorrect information without even talking to the individual in question. They have no more credence than the Statement Analysis Dude or the Astrology God, in my opinion.


Or some bloke in the pub, for that matter :)

Here's a little experiment. I am going to publicly make a statement which I am totally unqualified to make. Here comes the unqualified statement:

Prince Charles is a vicious racist who particularly hates Aboriginal Australians.

The next step in the experiment is that you can now feel free to post in another forum, saying "Hasn't Prince Charles been labelled as a vicious racist who particularly hates Aboriginal Australians?"

:D

ETA No offence intended, your royal highness! I was inventing a falsehood about you to make a point - it is not my personal opinion. Please don't put me in the Tower! (Although, for full disclosure, I think the Monarchy is an archaic and anachronistic institution that has no place in a modern parliamentary democracy :))
 
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I decided to give Kermit's new powerpoint a look and it took less than a minute to see that Kermit is still stuck in 2008. I read 2 of Kermit's lies and put it in the recycle bin where it belongs.

Here's the 2 points that let me know I was wasting my time reading any further.

1. Kermit continues to push the postal police arrival lies which have been thoroughly refuted. You can read more about the postal police arrival on IIP.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Prosecutionscase.html#anchor_107

2. Kermit has no idea what he is talking about with regard to the blood evidence on Meredith's body because he has not seen the evidence. The blood evidence on Meredith's body does not suggest that her bra was removed at a later time to stage a sexual attack. There are clearly blood droplets on Meredith's bare breasts proving the bra was removed while Meredith was still breathing. Pushing this lie to support staging is one of the most egregious lies told in this case that began with Mignini. The truth is Rudy Guede moved Meredith out of the large puddle of blood so he could sexually assault her. Ron Hendry showed this in great detail here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry8.html


This is one comment on TJMK about Kermit's new masterpiece: "Haha, very instructive and also very funny !"

Someone should tell them that there is a time and place for humor. They need to learn from Ron Hendry if they want to properly analyze the case using photographs. We have experts, they have Kermit.
 
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GIGO principle

Exactly. No ethical or rational professional in the mental health field would diagnose such a condition based on a few iffy news reports and some obviously incorrect information without even talking to the individual in question. They have no more credence than the Statement Analysis Dude or the Astrology God, in my opinion.
(highlighting mine)
RoseMontague,

The best analyst in the world cannot produce a meaningful answer if given bad information. Yet the credentials of some of these pundits puts a patina of legitimacy over their pronouncements. I agree that they are not credible under these circumstances.
 
This may answer some of the w questions, however, I am not certain contamination comes into play.

http://www.iltempo.it/interni_esteri/2011/03/03/1241097-giustizia_caos_confusi_reperti.shtml

Amazing. To think that the *missing* hair that the cops in the Kercher case found and then Lost may show up in some test from another case 10 years from now. So who was (probably) responsible for this mess?

How is this possible? To make the mistake may have been the advisers of the Public Prosecutor of Rome, who were responsible for carrying out technical assessments in both court cases. And, therefore, may have mixed findings, placing them in a wrong box. In short, the police, once the hair inserts genetic data in the database have been confronted with the surprising result.

Well at least they stored it well.
 
Perhaps this is a good time to remind you of your original post to which I replied, and upon which all of this to-and-fro has been based. You said this:

And what's more, you said it in response to a post from halides. I don't even believe that shares supernaut's belief that "Knox is 100% innocent" - even though you clearly accused him of adopting such a position in this post. So you started off on the wrong foot, and things got worse from there.
My original post was following on from the supernaut's post. Halides list of wrongly decided cases is obviously irrelevant to this case but he appeared to me to be suggesting Amanda to be innocent. If s/he accepts that Amanda's innocence is only a possibility and not a given fact there is no reason to disagree with anything I said.

Aside from all that, the fact remains that a person found not guilty of a crime must be considered innocent of that crime. This is a fundamental tenet of modern democratic jurisprudence.
If that was the case someone found not guilty of a crime would surely not have to pay civil damages...... What is beyond reasonable doubt? 95%+ against the balance of probabilities in a civil court ~50%. Seems like the law has a sliding scale of innocence.

I completely understand your point about the person possibly not being factually innocent - but as I tire of pointing out, often nobody but the actual person him/herself knows this for certain.
and as I tire of pointing out you are simply saying the same thing as me.

Let me repeat a variation of an analogy t...
No need, it is not exactly rocket science, is it?

And regarding your last paragraph, I could give the short answer and say that I couldn't care less what you think
Looks like you just did. Hey ho.
 
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Nobody want to tell me how they think Knox and Sollecito managed to leave a corpse without any of that pizza in its duodenum?

Rolfe.
 
I decided to give Kermit's new powerpoint a look and it took less than a minute to see that Kermit is still stuck in 2008. I read 2 of Kermit's lies and put it in the recycle bin where it belongs.

Here's the 2 points that let me know I was wasting my time reading any further.

1. Kermit continues to push the postal police arrival lies which have been thoroughly refuted. You can read more about the postal police arrival on IIP.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Prosecutionscase.html#anchor_107

2. Kermit has no idea what he is talking about with regard to the blood evidence on Meredith's body because he has not seen the evidence. The blood evidence on Meredith's body does not suggest that her bra was removed at a later time to stage a sexual attack. There are clearly blood droplets on Meredith's bare breasts proving the bra was removed while Meredith was still breathing. Pushing this lie to support staging is one of the most egregious lies told in this case that began with Mignini. The truth is Rudy Guede moved Meredith out of the large puddle of blood so he could sexually assault her. Ron Hendry showed this in great detail here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry8.html


This is one comment on TJMK about Kermit's new masterpiece: "Haha, very instructive and also very funny !"

Someone should tell them that there is a time and place for humor. They need to learn from Ron Hendry if they want to properly analyze the case using photographs. We have experts, they have Kermit.

I took a look. It's particularly hilarious when they start by invoking Occam's razor only to proceed with the most contrived, incomprehensible and riddled with lies nonsense that doesn't form any narrative, starting with their fake break-in idiocy - now that's making Occam roll in grave :)
Hey, Kermit and the rest of you geniuses! Guede broke in, killed and raped poor Meredith. It's that simple.
Apart from such nonsense and meandering to omit the inconvenient facts the more obvious lie of kermit & co. is that Amanda didn't answer phone calls from Filomena. It's unbelievable that those guys after years of obsessing with the case have no understanding of basic hard irrefutable facts such as phone logs.
 
From what I understand about this case, no one has been able to demonstrate that Raffaele's knife inflicted any of the wounds on the victim. In fact, on some of them, that knife has been excluded 100%. My questions are -- just how many wounds were found on Meredith and how many of them could not have come from his knife?

Unlike Guede’s bloody palm print, there are no other bits of evidence that could convict by themselves. Guede’s bloody palm print would convict by itself because it put Guede in the victim’s room and touching things - without calling the police – shortly after the victim’s fatal wound; before all the blood had coagulated.

For any inferences to be drawn from the knife, it had to be proved to be in the murder room at the time of the murder with Amanda present. Just because Amanda’s DNA was on the knife wouldn’t automatically infer that Amanda was in the room at the time of the murder or shortly after. Amanda’s DNA could have been deposited on the knife on many other occasions. To prove that the knife was in the murder room, it would need to have the victim’s (Meredith) blood AND DNA on it. It had neither. The prosecution’s hypothesis was that the knife had been scrubbed clean with Clorox. However, no Clorox was found on the knife, just starch from the last time the knife was used to slice bread or potato. There was at least on wound that could not have been made by the kitchen knife because the knife was too wide for the wound. The kitchen knife was also too wide for the bloody outline of a knife left on the bed. Consequently yet another theory was made and believed. This theory held that there were two knives used.
The lab that supposedly found one DNA molecule on the knife (the 10 pico grams of DNA material) was awash in the victim’s DNA. Each DNA sample was subjected to an amplification of 270 million. Were 1 gram of DNA to be amplified 270 million times, it would fill your house (270,000 kilo grams – half a million pounds of Meredith’s DNA). In actuality the amplification would end before all the protein supplied to the process was converted to DNA, but I just wanted to give you an idea that there was the potential for a great deal of the victims’ DNA in the lab.

I feel for the victim, but my feelings shouldn’t affect my judgment, so I have only mentioned the victim’s name but once.
 
Amazing. To think that the *missing* hair that the cops in the Kercher case found and then Lost may show up in some test from another case 10 years from now. So who was (probably) responsible for this mess?



Well at least they stored it well.

I have been reviewing the SAL work records and the test results. There were many hair (of differing lengths and colors) recovered and tested during the investigation (along with some fibers). Has it been sourced that a hair was/is missing?
 
Raffaele is innocent and so is the Knox girl.

It really doesn't make a difference to me if someone is only reasonably certain of that. Reasonable doubt on guilt has long since passed and we are in the realms of degree of certainty of innocence for most here.

I am not sure if it really makes much of a difference to anybody on this thread on the pro-innocence side.

Does it make a difference from the pro-guilt side?

It's not like I see a lot of those that believe in guilt trying to convince those that are only reasonably certain of innocence that they are wrong.
 
I have been reviewing the SAL work records and the test results. There were many hair (of differing lengths and colors) recovered and tested during the investigation (along with some fibers). Has it been sourced that a hair was/is missing?

IIRC, it was recently discussed here as well as PMF and the general consensus was that it went AWOL.

Here is your chance to prove both wrong. I know you can do it.

ETA: Glad to see somebody else going through this, I got a little frustrated trying to discuss this during our moderation and have not been back to it.
 
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Nobody want to tell me how they think Knox and Sollecito managed to leave a corpse without any of that pizza in its duodenum?

Rolfe.


Nope. Nor do they want to tell you why Meredith didn't call her mother back after the aborted 8.56pm call (when Meredith religiously called her sick mother every day, but hadn't yet called on that day), but instead apparently (according to the 11.30+ ToD narrative) lounged around messing with her mobile phone and generally doing nothing at all. Nor do they want to tell you why Meredith didn't remove from her bag the textbook she had borrowed to read that evening - with the promise to return it the following morning - in these supposed two and a half hours between arriving home and being attacked.

Nor, for that matter, do they want to tell you how the state of Filomena's room is apparently exclusively consistent with a staged break-in (because in fact it's entirely consistent with a real break-in).

Nor do they want to tell you that the bathmat partial print is matchable with "millimetre accuracy" to Sollecito's reference print (and completely excluded from matching Guede's print), because the merest glance at decent photos of that bathmat will tell anyone that a) conducting millimetre-accurate measurements of that print on that mat is both ridiculous and impossible, and b) it's clear that that the print matches Guede's reference print at least as much as - if not more than - it matches Sollecito's.

And nor do they want to tell you that the mixed-DNA from the bathroom sink was clear evidence that Knox's DNA and Meredith's blood DNA were deposited at the same time, because the crime scene video tells the whole world just how terribly these specimen swabs were collected - in long smearing motions that picked up everything some 2-3 inches either side of the small dilute blood droplets. The truth, of course, is that it's just as likely - if no more so - that Knox's DNA on those swabs came from gum or inner cheek cells that were sloughed off during toothbrushing and rinsed out into the sink, and the smearing collection technique picked up some of these cells along with Meredith's blood.
 
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