Why not war against Islam?

[FireGarden]

Firegarden: I do not think Jonestown would have happned without the Jim Jones' cult. I do not think the stand-off in Wacco would have happend without the Branch Davidian cult.

Likewise, I do not think 9-11 would have happened without Islam. I cannot see how that would have come to pass as just a typical, political act of war.

Well that's the weird thing about language. When you said "There would be no 9-11", I inferred you meant '...nor anything of the sort'.

There would be no Mosques without Islam, but there would be religious buildings. Well, someone will thank me for pointing that out.

 

[DC]

They disagree about the justifyable reason, the size of the stick and how much force can be used.

They do not disagree wheter or not it's allowed to beat your wife.

no actually, while i viewed videos from a group of Muslims that are pretty radical, and are regarded as rather dangerous by the German Authorities.
i came across videos on Homosexuality and beating your wife. i was suprised how they viewed it. the one Imam saying, no you are not allowed to beat your wife.

 

[A'isha]

Yes they do. It's inherent in their religion.

They might not agree personally with that specific teaching but that does not remove it from Islam.

And when Muslims trained in Islamic law and theology like Asad and El Fadl and Rauf say it's not, you disagree, because you know more about "true Islam" than they do?

You can also be a Christian and NOT believe that gay sex is a sin but that does not mean that Christianity doesn't teach that gay sex is a sin. Therefore, as a Christian you follow a religion that teaches that gay sex is a sin (even if you, personally, do not believe it).

So, the Episcopal Church is wrong and no longer following or teaching "true Christianity"?

 

[FireGarden]

I think you totally lost the context here.

Islam DOES teach to wage war but most Muslims either are not interested or are not doing anything war-like or don;t think the time is right.

And, no doubt, people like Kuntz will tell me: "Manson's music DOES glorify inhumanity. It DOES promote suicide. The people who listen to it just don't think the time is right."

You seem totally unable to accept any alternative interpretation of the Quran. You have made no attempt to answer ANTPogo's post on the matter. And I think there is so little chance you ever will that I'm not even going to bother linking to it.

What does that have to do with Marylin Manson? Please explain.

If you can explain to me why Kuntz is wrong about Manson, then you might be able to understand why your view of Islam is not the only one.

 

[Mister Agenda]

We think the fight against Scientology is honorable here (in this forum), the same should be true with other religions whose invalidity is provable and incontravertable.

Fighting Scientology is not a war on Scientology. No one is blowing up their buildings or assassinating their leaders. Yes, you could have a 'war on Islam' in the same sense as a 'war on poverty'; but since terrorism and invasions are involved in our dealings with Islamist groups and countries, it's hard to separate advocacy for a war on Islam from advocacy for violence against Muslims.

I think if you used less loaded terms, you would find there is less disagreement with what you actually advocate than you think. Secularizing Islam is something I think has wide support here.

 

[A'isha]

I think if you used less loaded terms, you would find there is less disagreement with what you actually advocate than you think. Secularizing Islam is something I think has wide support here.

Indeed.

I've been watching the recent events in Egypt with much concern, because of the threat that the Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood will either gain a lot of influence or even take over the country. I don't want that to happen.

But, by the same token, I want my relatives who live there to be able to practice their Muslim faith in peace, in a secular-ruled country that also lets their Coptic Christian neighbors practice their faith in peace. Just like I can be a relatively happy Atheist here in secularly-ruled America, while the lovely old lady who is my downstairs neighbor can regularly attend her Baptist church in peace, and the local Mormon missionaries (who I've been having many fruitful and interesting conversations with) can go door to door in peace.

 

[armageddonman]

And when Muslims trained in Islamic law and theology like Asad and El Fadl and Rauf say it's not, you disagree, because you know more about "true Islam" than they do?

So they disagree that Islam was spread through Jihad and that this was justified by Islamic teachings?

So, the Episcopal Church is wrong and no longer following or teaching "true Christianity"?

So does the Episcopal chruch teach that the Bible does not contain passages condemning homosexuality or are they teaching that those passages are either not relevant or do not mean what they are saying?

And again, I'm not claiming that all Muslims believe those things but if you read the Quran, the Hadeeth, about Islamic history past and present then it's not irrational to be suspicius of Islam or critizize it.

That and only that is my point.

I do not believe that all Muslims are sexists.
I do not believe that all Muslims want to enslave and conquer the non-Muslims.
I do not believe that all Muslims beat their wives.

And so on.

I've tried explaining this several times but apparently, ANY mentioning of the fact that there are some very questionable teachings within Islam which are inherent part of this religion is a big, fat no-no to some people.

Of course, you can say the same of other religions or ideologies but so what? If you want to discuss those, open another thread and don't hijack mine.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Let me give you an example.

The television program, Nova, made a very good episode debunking The Bermuda Triangle. They did a very good job in showing that there was really no mysterious place where planes and ships disappear without explaination. They debunked The Bermuda Triangle.

If, for some reson, a Bermuda Triangle believer studied that program long enough and with enough passion, he just might find one single flaw in the Nova program and announce it to the world. But just because there is a mistake in the program, does not automatically mean that ther IS a Bermuda Triangle.

People who supported John Kerry for president did the same thing with "Unfit for Command". They found what amounts to a typo. But they announce that the book is "a lie"

So if some dolt finds error in a youtube video that shows fault with the way some muslims view islam, does that mean the video is untrue? No it does not. There is truth in the video. Some muslims I am sure interpret Islam differently. That does not mean the video has no merrit.

Islam is a lie. If you defend it, you are defending a lie.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Well that's the weird thing about language. When you said "There would be no 9-11", I inferred you meant '...nor anything of the sort'.

9-11 required people to be seduced by a religious ideology. It would not have happened without Islam. No human being is willing to kill innocent people and kill themselves unless their minds were rewired by a cult. Jonestown, Wacco and 9-11 have that in common.

It was nothing like Pearl Harbor. There was no nation that attacked the United States military because of political motivations.

 

[DC]

Let me give you an example.

The television program, Nova, made a very good episode debunking The Bermuda Triangle. They did a very good job in showing that there was really no mysterious place where planes and ships disappear without explaination. They debunked The Bermuda Triangle.

If, for some reson, a Bermuda Triangle believer studied that program long enough and with enough passion, he just might find one single flaw in the Nova program and announce it to the world. But just because there is a mistake in the program, does not automatically mean that ther IS a Bermuda Triangle.

People who supported John Kerry for president did the same thing with "Unfit for Command". They found what amounts to a typo. But they announce that the book is "a lie"

So if some dolt finds error in a youtube video that shows fault with the way some muslims view islam, does that mean the video is untrue? No it does not. There is truth in the video. Some muslims I am sure interpret Islam differently. That does not mean the video has no merrit.

Islam is a lie. If you defend it, you are defending a lie.

well then one of our core principles of our Democracy is defending lies, because we defend freedom of religion in our country.

 

[A'isha]

So they disagree that Islam was spread through Jihad and that this was justified by Islamic teachings?

There's a difference between "it has been read this way" and "it can only be read this way."

So does the Episcopal chruch teach that the Bible does not contain passages condemning homosexuality or are they teaching that those passages are either not relevant or do not mean what they are saying?

They're saying that the condemnation of homosexuality is not an integral and essential part of either the Christian faith or what the Bible teaches. You can be a fully devout Christian who believes the Bible is God's Holy Word, and still think gays and lesbians should not only have the right to be married, but also be ordained as priests.

Just like the Muslims I've quoted say you can be a fully devout Muslim who believes the Qu'ran is God's Holy Word, and still think that jihad is purely defensive and that Muslims are not called to constantly spread their faith via conquest and violent struggle.

And again, I'm not claiming that all Muslims believe those things but if you read the Quran, the Hadeeth, about Islamic history past and present then it's not irrational to be suspicius of Islam or critizize it.

You will never understand what different Muslims believe by simply reading the Qur'an and the hadith, any more than you can understand the differences between Catholics and, say, Lutherans, just by reading the Bible.

In order to understand what Muslims believe, you have to go beyond the scriptures and read what they say about what they believe about those scriptures. Just like, in order to understand Catholic beliefs, you have to go beyond the Bible and read what they say about those scriptures.

That and only that is my point.

I do not believe that all Muslims are sexists.
I do not believe that all Muslims want to enslave and conquer the non-Muslims.
I do not believe that all Muslims beat their wives.

And so on.

I've tried explaining this several times but apparently, ANY mentioning of the fact that there are some very questionable teachings within Islam which are inherent part of this religion is a big, fat no-no to some people.

That's because they're not inherent (EDIT: That is, in the sort of Platonic ideal sense). Some Muslims think they're inherent. Some don't. A lot of Muslims disagree to the point of violence on things that you might think are pretty core beliefs of Islam (try being a Sufi in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, for example), just like a lot of Christians don't agree on things that you might think are pretty core beliefs of Christianity (ask Jack Chick what he thinks of Catholic doctrine).

 

[tsig]

There's a difference between "it has been read this way" and "it can only be read this way."



They're saying that the condemnation of homosexuality is not an integral and essential part of either the Christian faith or what the Bible teaches. You can be a fully devout Christian who believes the Bible is God's Holy Word, and still think gays and lesbians should not only have the right to be married, but also be ordained as priests.

Just like the Muslims I've quoted say you can be a fully devout Muslim who believes the Qu'ran is God's Holy Word, and still think that jihad is purely defensive and that Muslims are not called to constantly spread their faith via conquest and violent struggle.



You will never understand what different Muslims believe by simply reading the Qur'an and the hadith, any more than you can understand the differences between Catholics and, say, Lutherans, just by reading the Bible.

In order to understand what Muslims believe, you have to go beyond the scriptures and read what they say about what they believe about those scriptures. Just like, in order to understand Catholic beliefs, you have to go beyond the Bible and read what they say about those scriptures.



That's because they're not inherent (EDIT: That is, in the sort of Platonic ideal sense). Some Muslims think they're inherent. Some don't. A lot of Muslims disagree to the point of violence on things that you might think are pretty core beliefs of Islam (try being a Sufi in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, for example), just like a lot of Christians don't agree on things that you might think are pretty core beliefs of Christianity (ask Jack Chick what he thinks of Catholic doctrine).

Citing Muslim on Muslim violence certainly convinces me that it's a religion of peace.

 

[A'isha]

Citing Muslim on Muslim violence certainly convinces me that it's a religion of peace.

You really have this weird insistence that Islam (and its followers) be all one thing, or all another. Do you treat every religion, philosophy, and way of life like this, or is Islam just special for you?

 

[A'isha]

Look, Islam isn't peaceful. Islam isn't violent. Islam isn't anything, because "Islam" as a stand-alone entity does not exist. There are only Muslims, and as with any colossal group of individual human beings, they have a diverse range of views on a wide variety of topics, not least of which is just what it means to be a Muslim.

 

[bikerdruid]

Leumus said it.

but you have no problem supporting the wars and taking credit for doing bugger all.

 

[bikerdruid]

We should all be at war with lies and stupidity.

you should have warred against bush and cheney then.

 

[bikerdruid]

That is not how things are in lots of countries where the cutting off of hands and heads is a way of life.

there are 47 countries in the world with muslim majorities.
very few of them include cutting off heads and hands in their 'way of life'.

 

[catscratch]

False Muslims, Anyone?

I've had quite a few discussions with Muslims over the last few years and from what what I learned, Islam teaches (among many other things):

1. Muslims need to spread Islam.
2. Islam is spread by "inviting" the kkuffar to join.
3. If they refuse, they need to be conquered through offensive Jihad.
4. After the conquest, "people of the book" will be second-class citizens with very few rights.
5. Prisoners of war and their female relatives can be sold as slaves.

Now, I know that the vast majority of the Muslims have no abitions to actually go on such a Jihad and the idea that "The West is at war with Islam" is silly but for the sake of the argument, why would anyone who adheres to an ideology which in itself is a declaration of war against anyone who doesn't adhere to it be surprised if those people took the war to Muslim lands pre-emptively?

Since there are false Christians and Jews that are NOT, why can't you believe that there are fake Muslims, too? From what I've read in their prayer book, they spend more time criticizing Pharisees than anything else... the same thing Jesus did, actually.

In actuality, if Talmud took over, point 4 would exist, at which time point 3 would be in effect because of point 2. Which is ALL similar to the rule of Roman Catholicism, don't you think?

Re: point 5, you haven't heard of GULag? Or Eisenhower's Death Camps. It's not a new idea. And it's not an exclusively old one either. It's how the world has been covered in Africans... the losers were sold.

 

[DC]

We should all be at war with lies and stupidity.
Being at war with Islam is not the same thing as being at war with Muslims.
I see two reasons why Liberals defend Islam. First of all, it is just a reflex to defend whatever the political Right is against. Secondly, Liberals fear that once false beliefs based on hope and wishful thinking are stricken down, then Liberalism too will be disproved and abolished. Islam thrives on showing faults on other religion while itself being incontrovertibly untrue. That is how Liberalism rolls too. If not for the fact that Liberism attacks those against it while never looking inward, there would be no Liberals.



That does not mean anything. Since there is no truth in Islam, there is no such thing as a true Muslim. It is suspicious that people defend a false belief.

If Islam was removed from the equation, there would be no guy wearing a suicide vest. There would be no 9-11 if there was no Islam.

I think there are three things you do not know about Islam

inspired by the video i started reading the koran from behind, the newest passages first, one of the first things i came across was promoting religious freedom. well the way i understood it.

http://quran.com/109
strange.

ETA:
http://quran.com/90
patience and compassion are claimed to be good. wouldn't that supersede all earlier violent passages? by the logic of the video

 

[Resume]

there are 47 countries in the world with muslim majorities.
very few of them include cutting off heads and hands in their 'way of life'.

Shouldn't be any of them doing that.