A Skeptic Freemason - wtf?

[Aikenhead]

in the aftermath of the horrible events in Norway I learned about the Swedish Rite^WP, which is worked in Scandinavia and by parts of german freemasons, exclusively Christian and has eleven degrees.

Yeah, the Swedish Rite is off on its own fascinating little corner of Freemasonry. And I should stick a big qualifier at the head of my last few posts -- something to the effect of "My comments apply to American Freemasonry (and to a lesser degree, to British Freemasonry); not all Freemasonry."

Could you give us an example of the kind of research you do?

Oh, the variety is endless. Off the top of my head, some of the original research papers I've heard in the past couple of years have included these subjects:

Elizabeth St. Ledger, the first female Freemason

Mithraism and Freemasonry -- parallels and blinds

non-Yahwehists and the swearing of oaths

the Freemasonry of Napoleon Bonaparte and his brothers

the disappearance of the chisel in American Masonic "working tools"

Albert Pike and the Ku Klux Klan

Jungian archetypes and the initiatic ritual

Francis Dashwood, Benjamin Franklin, and the Hellfire Club

how virtuality will (not) save Freemasonry

traveling military Lodges in India during the Raj

George Washington -- Christian or Deist?



I hope that gives a sense of the variety of original research being done today.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I'm sure if you're a mason and you want to learn about that stuff, you can if you want. It's not hidden, per se, but it's not forced down masons' throats either. Is that correct?

That's also correct if you substitute mason with human, and for a lot of stuff. Here's a short message from the most interesting character I found in my passing studies of Freemasonery, Manly Palmer Hall.


As I type this I see Aikenhead's response in the preview - thanks.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Joker.

Seriously, though. That was funny, but are there such things as internet Masonic Lodges? How are they viewed by non-internet Masons? I Googled it and found a few, but they still seemed like they had brick-and-mortar meeting places.

This is interesting to me. My roommate in college was a Mason, and to me it seemed like it was just something he was doing because his father and grandfather did it. I have no opinion one way or the other about Masons, but it is an interesting subject.

Sorry for the late response, I don't usually respond to the troll threads once they get derailed, and since at least two of JREF's biggest forum trolls are posting here (looks like they are bringing Aikenhead into the fold?) I rarely look at it once it gets past that point. But you ask a good question - once of which I didn't see Fitz or any of the other known JREF masons answer.

Yes, there is a internet masonic lodge - all of its members must hold membership in a regular masonic lodge recognized by the UGLE. So, for example, I am a member of a lodge under the Grand Lodge of NC AFAM which has cross recognition with the UGLE, and in joining the Internet Lodge I get dual membership in a UGLE lodge. This has some practical benefits - although I could previously travel and attend any lodge with shared recognition, holding dual membership removes several administrative formalities that makes visiting UGLE lodges abroad much easier. It fits my personal traveling style (which is usually pretty spontaneous). I can't always make every meeting, since the lodge meets around the world, but membership attendance isn't required. I think quite a few members never go to a meeting but just enjoy use of the quite active listserv and website.

Real masons know that internet lodges - and there are a handful, but the one under the UGLE was the first and most well known - are quite regular masonry. Its like any normal lodge except due to the wide membership everyone can't make every meeting, so there are only a handful of meetings a year (whereas my local lodge meets every 2 weeks).

 

[LightinDarkness]

I am from a conservative part of the country and I had a couple questions.

Although I understand you want questions answered I should point out that you shouldn't trust what you read on forums. In this case you have at least one person who is claiming to be a mason here who is most likely not (and if he is, he demonstrates 0 of the qualities of the real Freemason). Of course, he would because hes trolling say the same thing about me or Fitzgibbon, so the point is when your asking these sort of questions you MIGHT get the real answer but you are best off going to a masonic web site. I'd recommend something like http://askafreemason.org or http://www.thefreemason.com/community/.

Some people choose to not talk about their membership for a variety of reasons. Some lodge cultures put more value on secrecy than others. Some come from evangelical, Catholic, or otherwise anti-masonic parts of the community (active resistance to freemasonry is small but fierce).

Women can't join a mainstream lodge because its a fraternity. They can join other types of freemasonry like Le Droit Humain, International Co-Masonry, etc. These are not considered "mainstream" lodges by the lodges that get to arbitrate such things. However, lodges like the United Grand Lodge of England have stated that besides the fact that these lodges admit women, they are otherwise like mainstream freemasonry and regular in every other way. I consider it a bit like college fraternities and sororities.

Any mason who told you "people of color" couldn't join his lodge is either not a mason or in a lodge that doesn't practice the values they teach. Someones race (along with their social status, sexual orientation, religion, etc.) has no impact on them joining. My local lodge is actually minority Caucasian, and I'm in North Carolina. If its a real masonic lodge the answer is sad but simple: racism. Unfortunately, some lodges have a racist past - its a sad fact but a reality. I would never attend such a lodge, and would in fact do everything I can to stop such practices - as would 99% of real masons.

There are what are called historically African American lodges called Prince Hall. They are like other lodges in every way, and were in fact early on recognized as regular masonry by things like the UGLE. Today these lodges are only "historically black" sort of like HBCUs - anyone from any race is welcome.

Smaller lodges may not meet that often or during certain periods of the year (they call it "going dark" - usually happens in the summer). So that may be why you never see anyone there. I wouldn't go there just because its your grandfathers lodge. Find one that fits your personal culture. Local lodges vary widely in terms of demographics, dress code, and community involvement. I'd be surprised if there wasn't one within a 30 to 45 minute drive that fits you. To find other lodges, type in "Grand Lodge of <Your State" in google and make sure that the website for your state matches one in the following list:
http://www.ugle.org.uk/about-ugle/recognised-foreign-grand-lodges/grand-lodges-in-north-america/

Most of the state grand lodges now have search engines that list all the lodges by location, so you can find one that might be more active and to your interests.

Again, don't trust a word I've written just as you shouldn't trust a word by anyone else here due to the prevalence of fakemasons - before acting on any of this make sure you double check for yourself.

 

[LightinDarkness]

I'd differ with LiD on that. It depends on the Lodge and the person. My experience as a Mason of 10 years has been that there's a greater interest in the esoteric than there has been previously and I think that's reflective of a desire within society for something more grounded.

I'd say my personal experiences are more in line with yours, Fitz - my intiaition and lodge membership has been in an environment very supports of esoteric philosophy and masonic education. Before I visited other lodges I had no exposure to the "drinking club" brand of masonry.

And of course, perhaps I've been too generous in characterizing much of masonry as just a drinking club previously - it does exit in such forms and depending on location may even be the prevalent form, but overall its been the minority in my experience. That may be a reflection of my traveling patterns though.

However, I tend to believe most lodges are beginning to embrace or turn back to teaching and exploring masonic philosophy as one of their chief functions. Its what new members want, and we are indeed going through a period of membership growth - explosive growth, in some states - and much of those new members are in their 20s and 30s. I doubt such men would join for yet another drinking club.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Good stuff, Aikenhead.

I think LiD didn't like the idea that the esoteric stuff is, well, esoteric.

I'm sure if you're a mason and you want to learn about that stuff, you can if you want. It's not hidden, per se, but it's not forced down masons' throats either. Is that correct?

No, what I didn't like is Aikenheads completely false insistence that there are these "unknown" groups to most masons that focus on deeper aspects of masonry. They don't exist. Hes wrong, and he knows hes wrong, which is why he lost the pissing match is now on ignore. Masons are well aware of these invitation only groups - as all of them must operate under the watchful eye of the GL if they are to continue recruiting in that jurisdiction. Whats even more hilarious is he brought up examples like Traditional Observance lodges, which in every case have had to have GL approval and thus are the subject to reams of public records and yearly assembly votes. They are about as hidden as the Scottish Rite's 33rd degree - which is to say, they are not at all. Whats going on here is a simple example of pride: Aikenhead no doubt belongs to a few (even if hes a fakemason I'm sure they have their own equivalent fake side orders) and thinks hes cool and special for it.

What you've said in bold is the reality - for a mason so inclined to get into masonic philosophy, its completely available. No need to search for invitation only organizations. In fact, as a member of several of those invitation only organizations, so much time is taken up nominating and initiating new members (since most only meet a few times a year, if that) that you'd get more in depth masonic philosophy from reading a book about it.

Anyways, I'm off for my annual August vacation. If the threads still alive when I get back, I'll respond to those who aren't on ignore.

 

[Aikenhead]

I don't usually respond to the troll threads once they get derailed, and since at least two of JREF's biggest forum trolls are posting here (looks like they are bringing Aikenhead into the fold?) I rarely look at it once it gets past that point. But you ask a good question - once of which I didn't see Fitz or any of the other known JREF masons answer.

Ah, the "'known' JREF masons". How are they known? Nobody knows.

I think it's safe to say that I am the only Mason here who has posted anything like proof of his Masonic affiliation. I notice that you still haven't. Why not?

And this supposed "troll" has posted more substantive information about Masonry in this thread than you, chum.

 

[Aikenhead]

Although I understand you want questions answered I should point out that you shouldn't trust what you read on forums.

Does that include what you write? If not, why?

In this case you have at least one person who is claiming to be a mason here who is most likely not

Uh-huh. Suppose you explain how I was able to "Photoshop" up an absolutely real 32nd Degree certificate and dues card, photograph them on top of that day's Times, and from a variety of angles, proving their 3-dimensionality? Well?

And how have you proved that you are a Mason?

...and if he is, he demonstrates 0 of the qualities of the real Freemason...

I'll tell you one quality of a Mason that I've demonstrated here that you've absolutely flouted. It comes near the end of the 3rd Degree Obligation. Hint: it has to do with swearing to not wrong a fellow Master Mason. That includes defaming or libeling him.

Some people choose to not talk about their membership for a variety of reasons...Women can't join a mainstream lodge because its a fraternity...Any mason who told you "people of color" couldn't join his lodge is either not a mason or in a lodge that doesn't practice the values they teach...etc.

That's already all been covered. Thanks anyway.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Oh my, looks like Aikenhead is going hysterical again. Buddy, I know you need desperately to get in the "last word" but you are ON IGNORE. The only person reading what you write are you and the two trolls egging you on in this thread. All I see is that you (or Childlike..or LGR...) have posted, thats it. And since you keep posting EVERY TIME after I post, I thought maybe you didn't get it.

By the way, I thought about showing how easy it is for fakemasons to convince non-masons they are by posting an easily obtainable masonic certificate and then posting my real one. But then spending $40 isn't worth it to prove a point as anyone any real mason knows this is the reason why posting degrees and dues cards mean nothing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1012-Scottish-Rite-Certificate-Leather-Holder-Case-/230644327206

All one has to do is buy them (and they go as cheap as $3 on ebay, the above is a bit expensive) and black out the personal information. BAM! Instant internet e-cred with the fancy golden seal (because really who could fake that, am I right?) You can do the same with lodge dues cards, 33rd degree certificates, and really certificates from nearly any invitational body. Any mason who has been around on the internet long enough is even familiar with the old usenet fakemason who did just that - I wonder if that was Aikenhead. The typing style and claims are familiar. How long have you been trolling forums, if I may ask?

Anyways, while I'm away you keep foaming at the mouth and try to remember (if you really are a mason) the lessons of the first degree which you have clearly forgotten in your arrogance and attitude.

 

[Aikenhead]

No, what I didn't like is Aikenheads completely false insistence that there are these "unknown" groups to most masons that focus on deeper aspects of masonry. They don't exist. Hes wrong, and he knows hes wrong...

Well, I've got to hand it to LiD for his ambition: to disprove the existence of something that he has never encountered. That's rather like someone saying that they know that intelligent life could not exist anywhere else in the universe. Or like a Catholic parishioner adamantly denying the existence of some group that meets privately in the Vatican, of which he could not possibly have any knowledge. Or an Army private insisting that it's impossible that a group of Defense Intelligence Agency staffers with TS+ clearance could be meeting for lunch somewhere in the Pentagon. Or...

...which is why he lost the pissing match is now on ignore.

Ah, yes. "Won" = "lost", and "obsessively respond to" = "ignore".

Masons are well aware of these invitation only groups...

Which ones? The ones that supposedly don't exist?

...as all of them must operate under the watchful eye of the GL if they are to continue recruiting in that jurisdiction.

Except, of course, that the groups I'm speaking of do not possess charters, nor do they behave like Lodges, Side Degrees or Appendant Bodies, so GLs have no jurisdiction over them. And equally to the point: with a few exceptions (that I'm not going to go into), GLs don't even know of their existence. You seem to be confusing the situation with something like colleges and banned frats or something.

Whats even more hilarious is he brought up examples like Traditional Observance lodges, which in every case have had to have GL approval and thus are the subject to reams of public records and yearly assembly votes.

Reading Comprehension. I'll repeat: READING COMPREHENSION. You seem to lack it.

Nowhere did I even suggest that TO Lodges don't have to have GL approval. Nowhere. Of course they do, just like every Lodge does. Nor did I ever even suggest that the invitational groups I refer to were (1) Lodges, (2) chartered, (3) or in any way under the purview of GLs. If you were paying more attention, I might think that was a strawman you were trying to foist on us, instead of plain ol' poor reading comprehension being to blame.

~ ~ ~

I wonder if you have any sense of the fact that, by persisting with your ad hominem attacks, your insistance that I'm not a Mason (despite my concrete evidence that I am, and your lack of same), that you're making Masons look petty, divisive and douchy? If you don't, you should. Freemasonry is supposed to "make good men better". If this is your example of "better", the Fraternity's in sorry shape indeed.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Oh my goodness I can't even refresh the page to proof read my own posts without seeing ANOTHER notification that the troll has responded AGAIN. Its kind of sad to watch the train wreck in progress. Oh well, good night all, and enjoy the good comedy Aikenhead is so generously providing us with. This will make a good dinner conversation with the lodge brethren I am visiting while on vacation. Hes a member of a big bad secret masonic organization that is hidden from the rest of us, hes so special, hes so important. If he needs to believe in this fantasy to maintain his own personal sense of self-worth, go for it. We all have our crutches

 

[Aikenhead]

Oh my, looks like Aikenhead is going hysterical again. Buddy, I know you need desperately to get in the "last word"...

You mean after your last four posts? Oh, but that's wasn't a "last word", right?

...but you are ON IGNORE. The only person reading what you write are you and the two trolls egging you on in this thread.

...and, of course, you. The same person who put me "on ignore" many exchanges ago. [irony alert] Please keep "ignoring" me; it makes for such lively conversation.

This will be the last time I say anything to you.

Holding my breath in 3...2...

Over the past few years here many fake masons or "real" masons showing terrible qualities like you have come and gone - you are nothing unusual. Although how quickly you've become buddies with our resident Holocaust Denier and NWO believer is hysterical.

"Become buddies"? [shrugs] I doubt it, and I doubt they think so either. People asked questions. I answered questions. Heck, you came back and answered questions. Does that mean that you're trying to buddy up?

Well, I hope your vacation is restful. Perhaps you'll come back with a little less pique and a little more of the spirit of the Fraternity.

 

[Aikenhead]

Hes a member of a big bad secret masonic organization that is hidden from the rest of us, hes so special, hes so important. If he needs to believe in this fantasy to maintain his own personal sense of self-worth, go for it. We all have our crutches

LiD has put me "on ignore", so I'm sure he won't be reading this......but it makes me wonder what the difference is between him saying that, and saying this:

"He's had the 33rd Degree conferred upon him; hes so special, hes so important. If he needs to wear a white hat to maintain his own personal sense of self-worth, go for it. We all have our crutches"?

I see no difference between these two statements. There's nothing a Mason can do to earn the 33rd Degree (I'm still not sure why they made me a KCCH). A group of other 33rd Degree Masons meets behind closed doors (ooh! not fair!) and decides -- sometimes quite arbitrarily -- to make some member of the KCCH a 33rd Degree Mason, while passing over many other members. It's unlikely that I'll ever have that honor conferred upon me, but it's not like I'm going to sulk, stamp my little foot and cry "unfair!", or more absurd still, accuse some group of not existing, just because I cannot see them meeting behind closed doors.

It seems to me that what is really behind LiD's claims that he knows something can't exist, and his claim that anyone who participates in invitational groups (like the 33rd Degree is, remember) is just this: sour grapes.

He should bear in mind that it was also a possibility that he wouldn't be accepted into the Fraternity (but he was), and that he wouldn't be invited to belong to the publicly-known invitational groups that he belongs to (but he was). He seems to be unable to follow that progression just one step further, because to do so would be to admit that he hasn't been welcomed everywhere he might want to be, and he finds that personally insulting. The sad thing is that it's entirely possible that there are no such groups in his area and, the only reason why he doesn't belong to one or more of them is because he simply isn't within their orbit. A wise man would see things dispassionately and objectively -- even humbly -- rather than striking out against others from his lack of knowledge and fragile ego.

Oh well; I guess we'll never hear his rebuttal, since he's busy ignoring this. [cough]

 

[Orphia Nay]

This is all very weird. LiD and Aikenhead seem to agree, but they're arguing. Could someone explain why?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Gentlemen (as you all have to be gentlemen) this discussion is fascinating.

Can I say I much prefer LinD as a freemason as he far better fulfils the stereotype of the Evil Mason ruling the world, whereas Aikenhead seems alarmingly normal. I daresay it is all a pose that Aikenhead has only been invited to the 32nd degree because he has mastered the art of seeming normal to such a high degree.

Alas, Angels and Demons is about to start on TV and I am naturally anxious to watch the Illuminati strive to bring light to a world mired in Catholic superstition.

Poor old Galileo, he never did understand the principle of Camera Obscura which that sly charlatan Kirchner dangled under his nose.

 

[little grey rabbit]

What can I say? Never trust a Jesuit.

 

[VonKleist]

Alas, Angels and Demons is about to start on TV and I am naturally anxious to watch the Illuminati strive to bring light to a world mired in Catholic superstition.

No, it isn't. Couldn't you have found some other hook to hang this on?

 

[little grey rabbit]

No, it isn't. Couldn't you have found some other hook to hang this on?

I'm from Australia and I'm here to help.

 

[VonKleist]

I'm from Australia and I'm here to help.

. . . . like a cheap fiddle.

 

[fitzgibbon]

Ah, the "'known' JREF masons". How are they known? Nobody knows.

I'll vouch for LiD credentials by virtue of some year's association here and on other forums. But then it necessarily follows that you'll attack my credentials too. C'est la vie.

I think it's safe to say that I am the only Mason here who has posted anything like proof of his Masonic affiliation. I notice that you still haven't. Why not?

Matthew 7:16 "By their fruits you will know them". You strut a card as primary 'proof' but your attitude decries the 'proof'. You're quite insistent on acknowledgement and therein lies the chief shortcoming I have with your claim. The laddie doth protest too much.

And this supposed "troll" has posted more substantive information about Masonry in this thread than you, chum.

If you say so. Nothing that isn't searchable. Knock yourself out.

The issue I had (and continue to have) with you is that your complete lack of online humility is completely at odds with the RL Masons of my acquaintance (even the ones that I know to be quite successful in their day-to-day avocations). But then again, nobody ever claimed that there isn't the occasional dick in the fraternity.