Moderated MLM Crap :(

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So how many Amway products have you used, Zelenius?

I've asked the question now of maybe half a dozen people on this forum who have been critical of the product quality.

None have answered. Why is that?

Glad you asked! As a matter of fact, I have used Amway products, but it was a long time ago and I admit I can't remember that well now. My mom had made sympathy purchases from my uncle of dish washing liquid and some other cleaning products.

As I recall, neither of us was that impressed with the quality or the price. My mom wasn't a repeat purchaser. I remember her complaining about the price. As some of you may recall, my uncle tried to get me to become an Amway distributor(I was in my late teens at the time), but I was skeptical and it didn't seem like my kind of thing. He did, on the other hand, get me to read "Who Stole the American Dream" and "The Magic of Thinking Big", which I believe Amway recommends or at least his upline was recommending. I can't say I learned anything useful from either of those books. I wonder if they are still popular with Amway distributors.

So, Icerat, which Amway products do you regularly use?
 
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Glad you asked! As a matter of fact, I have used Amway products, but it was a long time ago and I admit I can't remember that well now. My mom had made sympathy purchases from my uncle of dish washing liquid and some other cleaning products.

As I recall, neither of us was that impressed with the quality or the price. My mom wasn't a repeat purchaser. I remember her complaining about the price.

Do you recall if her supplier explained to her how to blend the concentrate to make it very cost effective?

I've already given a number of price comparisons between Dawn and Dish Drops.

"Who Stole the American Dream" and "The Magic of Thinking Big", which I believe Amway recommends or at least his upline was recommending. I can't say I learned anything useful from either of those books. I wonder if they are still popular with Amway distributors.

"The Magic of Thinking Big" is still a classic of the "success" literature, though starting to get dated in terms of research, as you'd expect for a >30yr old book.

Never read "who stole the american dream", but then I'm not american :)

So, Icerat, which Amway products do you regularly use?

Hmm .... well just 5 minutes ago I used LOC. I'm renovating my apartment (doing the bathroom at the moment) and it's really the best (environmentally friendly) all round cleanser I've ever used. Works great getting cement dust out of the hair! I also today used glister toothpaste and my espring water treatment system. I'm a diet coke addict and make my own soda using a soda stream and the taste is noticably better through the filter (yes, even blind tested it!)

Normally I take Nutrilite Double X but I've run out and with all the mess with renovating haven't got around to ordering yet. I also use Satinique shampoo and balsam, which I love, and the Tolsom men's skin care range (cleanser, toner, moisturiser, and shave gel). We use SA8 system for washing our clothes. I use dish drops, diluted 1:10 in a squeeze bottle occasionally. I don't use the dish drops automatic dishwasher powder as I don't think it's value for money. The LOC glass and LOC kitchen cleaners are a staple in the shelf above the sink do a fab job, environmentally friendly, and waaayyy cheaper then things like Windex. I also like the Nutrilite FitH20 sports drink (not available in the US). I'm a (mostly) vegetarian and it's a healthy drink that helps keep my B levels up and pretty cheap. My 5 yr old son loves it too, which helps keep his B levels up too. Last night I ate some amway branded (but not manufactured) italian pasta, olive oil, and pasta sauce. It costs a little more than your run of the mill supermarket pasta products, but it's restaurant quality stuff and cheaper than similar quality brands in the store. My fiancee uses a broad assortment of artistry skin care and cosmetics products.

And note that I'm merely a customer. I'm not (apart from debating on forums like this!) promoting the business, attending seminars, listening to CDs etc etc etc. I order when I need/want stuff. Haven't placed an order in a couple of months 'cause haven't particularly needed anything. Did this weekend to get some Double X and a few things my fiancee needed.
 
The sales reported are Amway's sales to distributors, not estimated retail sales value, which Amway stopped reporting more than a decade ago.



You think someone is "cool" who is reposting posts that start with the claim "the most expensive body wash is $5"?

Do you actually bother with even a half second of google fact checking?

Oh Jeezus, yes there exists very expensive versions of anything, but body-wash typically sells for much less.

http://www.google.com/#q=body+wash&...gc.r_pw.&fp=e5bc1b9fc8df0646&biw=1280&bih=929
 
The first MLM product (Nutrilite, later bought by Amway) operated on the basis that you needed trained salesman who could educate people about the product and it's features/benefits.

This is very typical for products that don't actually give you better value. The personal service in fact means "sell crap to your friends and family that they buy because they feel sorry for you". The joke is on you amway people. Assuming you sell any products to anyone besides other ambots at all.
 
\And note that I'm merely a customer. I'm not (apart from debating on forums like this!) promoting the business, attending seminars, listening to CDs etc etc etc. I order when I need/want stuff. Haven't placed an order in a couple of months 'cause haven't particularly needed anything. Did this weekend to get some Double X and a few things my fiancee needed.

So the most prolific amway defender IN THE ENTIRE WORLD isn't promoting the business? ROFLMAO.

Feel free to deny that you are that prolific by naming someone else who is a more prolific amway defender than yourself. Good luck with that.
 
Oh Jeezus, yes there exists very expensive versions of anything, but body-wash typically sells for much less.

So? The poster stated - The most expensive Body Wash in the market costs around $5


I have no idea at what price point the majority of body wash is purchased, but at $0.32/fl.oz Amway's Body Series Body Wash is at worst mid-range in price on that list.

So far on the various MLM threads, we've compared at least half a dozen products, and every single time actual research has found the Amway product was competitive!

The evidence mounts, but the mindless "overpriced" mantra continues. :rolleyes:
 
So far on the various MLM threads, we've compared at least half a dozen products, and every single time actual research has found the Amway product was competitive!

Except for the fact that the products are overrpriced crap, yes they are very competitive.
 
icerat,

The Amway experience you describe is slightly different than what I've come to think is the norm. I believe you and don't think you are misstating anything.

Here's one of the tough questions. When you were an active distributor (I think you said you were at one time?) were you selling 70% at full retail or not?

To answer that, you'll have to forget what passed through your hands to your own downline and just count products that you either consumed yourself and products you sold to people outside of the Amway system.

That means, for instance, that to use one bottle of LOC yourself, you would have sold two to the hoi polloi (dollar, not item count actually). If you purchased $100 worth of stuff for home use, you'd need $200 in outside sales. And so on. This would be true for anyone in your downline and anyone in your upline as well. Did it work that way for you?
 
The Amway experience you describe is slightly different than what I've come to think is the norm. I believe you and don't think you are misstating anything.

So here's my question - how did you come to believe what is the norm? Is there any selection bias occurring in whatever sample led to that?

Here's one of the tough questions. When you were an active distributor (I think you said you were at one time?) were you selling 70% at full retail or not?

To answer that, you'll have to forget what passed through your hands to your own downline and just count products that you either consumed yourself and products you sold to people outside of the Amway system.

That means, for instance, that to use one bottle of LOC yourself, you would have sold two to the hoi polloi (dollar, not item count actually). If you purchased $100 worth of stuff for home use, you'd need $200 in outside sales. And so on. This would be true for anyone in your downline and anyone in your upline as well. Did it work that way for you?

Why the very strange arbitrary question?

The fact you picked "70%" though makes me suspect you missed my earlier post talking about the myth of the 70% retail sales rule?
 
So here's my question - how did you come to believe what is the norm? Is there any selection bias occurring in whatever sample led to that?

Mostly what I've read in the links posted here on JREF. My only personal experience with Amway didn't have much to do with business or the structure but with the people and the psychology.

Why the very strange arbitrary question?

The fact you picked "70%" though makes me suspect you missed my earlier post talking about the myth of the 70% retail sales rule?

True. I was going with the old lawsuit. What percentage of retail sales do you think should be appropriate for an IBO with no downline? Or, if you want to think of that person as a buyer's club member, what percentage would work for someone just above them (remembering that they are selling at a discount to the guy beneath them).

I'm thinking of a store model (which I do have experience with). In retail, we sold at a discount to employees, but this was such a small fraction of the business, I can't see how that made an impact.
 
True. I was going with the old lawsuit. What percentage of retail sales do you think should be appropriate for an IBO with no downline?

Entirely depends on their goals. If they've got no downline then they're only ever going to make profit based on what they sell to customers. Whatever they buy for themselves is pretty much irrelevant.

Or, if you want to think of that person as a buyer's club member, what percentage would work for someone just above them (remembering that they are selling at a discount to the guy beneath them).

Again, depends on the goal, as well as their circumstances. The barest minimum one should aim for as a business owner, as quickly as possible, is break even point - ie make sure you're covering your expenses. Even if you don't need to do that personally (you're willing to invest $$$ for a longer term goal) it's a good idea to set an example for those you sponsor who may not be able to afford it otherwise.

Then it depends what your goals are. Smaller incomes come faster from focusing on retailing with network building handled as the opportunity arises. Larger incomes come faster from focusing on networking with retailing opportunities handled as they arise.

Often forgotten (not least because for a long time Amway didn't really enforce it) is that in most countries Amway itself has rules on a minimum volume of customer sales each month in order to earn the rebates on downline sales volume. In many countries it's simply "10 customers" in North America it's 50PV (around $200 in retail). The group I worked with encouraged having 10 regular customers as soon as possible, this would generally generate at least $400-$800 in retail sales and a $100-$200 profit a month which would cover most peoples general expenses. Then it would simply continue to expand as you move through the process. As a rough guide you should generally have at least 1 full retail customer for each person you sponsor, with the expectancy that 4 out of 5 you sponsor will pretty much have to be treated as customers as well (just with lower margin).

Profiting through wholesaling (ie building a downline) takes longer. Through retailing you can make money straight away.

I'm thinking of a store model (which I do have experience with). In retail, we sold at a discount to employees, but this was such a small fraction of the business, I can't see how that made an impact.

Well this is one of the problems with what's come to be known as the "BFYTODS" model (ie buy for yourself teach others to do the same" which became popular particularly through the 90s and 00s, particularly with some american groups. It was easier to get volume by encouraging people to treat it as a buyers club, getting up to 35% discounts, but you needed a lot more people and a lot more volume to generate the same amount of profit - and expenses didn't really decrease. You still have the same small number of people actively building the networks, its just you've now got the same amount of work managing your customers (whom you've now sponsored as distributors) for less profit.

So you ended up with bunches of people spending more than they were making, and then getting upset about it on the 'net and elsewhere. That was never really the Amway model though. Rich DeVos, founder of Amway, has always clearly been against it. Dick DeVos, who took over from his father, reportedly was quite happy with the "internal consumption" model. Doug DeVos, who along with Steve Van Andel is now in charge, is clearly back to the model his father envisioned.
 
I have placed this thread on Moderated status, pending a review and potential clean out.
Posted By: Locknar


While I have finished the clean out, I will leave this thread on Moderated status for the time being. In short, keep the discussion civil/polite, on topic, and address the argument not attack the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
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