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This Whole Debt Limit Thing

Who has been the most unreasonable on this whole debt limit thing?

  • Congressional Democrats

    Votes: 11 6.2%
  • Congressional Republicans

    Votes: 139 78.1%
  • Obama

    Votes: 10 5.6%
  • They have all been equally unreasonable.

    Votes: 18 10.1%

  • Total voters
    178
  • Poll closed .
I'll say debt payments first, mandatory spending mentioned in the constitution second, discretionary spending mentioned in the constitution third, mandatory spending not mentioned in the constitution fourth, discretionary spending not mentioned in the constitution fifth, then everything else.

I don't understand why in the face of a conflict between two pieces of legislation (the budget resolution and the debt ceiling law) that everyone automatically assumes the debt ceiling law trumps the budget resolution. Why consider the budget resolution to be invalid rather than the debt ceiling?

There is certainly no authority for the executive to make these decisions. Congress has the authority but can't act to resolve the conflicting legislation because of the House Tea Party Caucus.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
You guys simply spent all the money.

That's what's overly simple.





It's really not hard to understand. Repeat it a couple of times.

We spent all the money.
We spent all the money....
 
I don't understand why in the face of a conflict between two pieces of legislation (the budget resolution and the debt ceiling law) that everyone automatically assumes the debt ceiling law trumps the budget resolution. Why consider the budget resolution to be invalid rather than the debt ceiling?

There is certainly no authority for the executive to make these decisions. Congress has the authority but can't act to resolve the conflicting legislation because of the House Tea Party Caucus.

It is almost a non-sequiter line of reasoning. 'The debt limit needs to be raised so we can pay for the stuff we've currently obligated to do (though the budget passage), so now we must cut adjust spending at the same time.' Now the debt ceiling is related to the budget, but the time to make changes to the budget is during the budget talks. There is no reason to force budget concerns to be tied to the debt ceiling talks.

They are related, in that we don't have the money so we need to raise the debt limit, but if you don't want to raise the debt limit, don't spend more than projected revenue when you're doing the budget. (Over-simplified example) If I buy a new truck as an investment for my contracting business and need to get a loan to do it, the time to decide if I should get a loan is when buying the truck, not when the bank is asking for the first payment.(/over-simplified example)

Sometime things get bad and you have to borrow money to get though the tough times. Pay it down when things are good (for those who are paying attention, that was at the end of the Clinton years). If you must try to pay it down when times are tough, do it while making the budget in the first place.

I feel like I'm not being very articulate.
 
One of the things I've wondered about is why Obama never presented a plan that Boehner calls for. Is Reid's plan really Obama's plan? (This is an honest question for me but I don't know if I'm missing something and there are strong political or other reasons for Obama not to do it.)
 
One of the things I've wondered about is why Obama never presented a plan that Boehner calls for. Is Reid's plan really Obama's plan? (This is an honest question for me but I don't know if I'm missing something and there are strong political or other reasons for Obama not to do it.)

Wait...why should Obama produce the plan that Boehner calls for?

From where I'm sitting, the Democrats (Esp Obama) have been basically bending over backwards trying to work out a deal with the Republicans. The Republicans, fueled by anti-Obama and Tea Party rhetoric, have balked at anything resembling a compromise. How is that, in any way, Obama's fault?
 
Wait...why should Obama produce the plan that Boehner calls for?

From where I'm sitting, the Democrats (Esp Obama) have been basically bending over backwards trying to work out a deal with the Republicans. The Republicans, fueled by anti-Obama and Tea Party rhetoric, have balked at anything resembling a compromise. How is that, in any way, Obama's fault?

You should try sitting someplace else for a little bit maybe. 800 plus days, no budget yet... It's so easy to blame the republicans when you hate them, isn't it?
 
One of the things I've wondered about is why Obama never presented a plan that Boehner calls for. Is Reid's plan really Obama's plan? (This is an honest question for me but I don't know if I'm missing something and there are strong political or other reasons for Obama not to do it.)

It's actually not Obama's job to present plans. Congress passes the plan and Obama would sign it into law. Maybe you meant "endorse" or "negotiate" rather than "present." I believe that Obama said that he would veto both of Boehner's plans (which were largely stunts to appease the Tea Party and had absolutely no chance of getting through the Senate anyway) mainly because they included a permanent amendment to the Constitution that would essentially make it impossible for the country to carry any debt. Almost all economists (even budget hawk Republican economists) think that's a potentially catastrophic idea because it permanently ties the hands of the country in times of recession when it is often necessary to borrow money.

-Bri
 
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You should try sitting someplace else for a little bit maybe. 800 plus days, no budget yet... It's so easy to blame the republicans when you hate them, isn't it?

Similarly, in fiscal years 1999, 2005 and 2007 the Republicans failed to pass budgets even though they were in control of both houses of Congress.

From PolitiFact:

The claim implies that the stalled budget process is the exclusive fault of Senate Democrats and not a function of partisan politics on both sides. It also fails to note that since 1983, the GOP was in control of both houses of Congress in three of the four years that a budget resolution wasn’t approved.​

-Bri
 
You should try sitting someplace else for a little bit maybe. 800 plus days, no budget yet... It's so easy to blame the republicans when you hate them, isn't it?

What is this "800 plus days, no budget yet" tripe? A budget was passed, multiple budgets in fact, in those 800 days. What hasn't happened in the past 6 months, or so, is the Republicans agree to a compromise to prevent defaulting on the national debt.

That, really, has nothing to do with where anyone is sitting. That is simply the facts.

Maybe you should stop watching hate mongering TV/pundits and learn what's really going on in the world of politics.
 
What is this "800 plus days, no budget yet" tripe? A budget was passed, multiple budgets in fact, in those 800 days. What hasn't happened in the past 6 months, or so, is the Republicans agree to a compromise to prevent defaulting on the national debt.

Yep. Funny how people ignore the facts. Mhaze was making the same claim (that there is no budget in effect right now) on one of the other threads on this subject.

How could people forget that in March and April Republicans threatened to shut down government over policy questions regarding funding for CPB and Planned Parenthood before the budget for the remainder of the fiscal year was passed?
 
You should try sitting someplace else for a little bit maybe. 800 plus days, no budget yet... It's so easy to blame the republicans when you hate them, isn't it?
And it's easy to blame Obama and the Democratic Party when you use made up facts.

The problem with the debt ceiling situation is that we do have a budget (passed in April) that conflicts with the budget ceiling law. That is, Congress has passed conflicting laws. It is impossible for the Executive Branch to abide by both of them. The logical solution is for Congress to sort it out, but thanks largely to the Tea Party Caucus, it cannot or will not.

Democrats in Congress and Obama have agreed to everything the Republicans were asking for in February (when the budget debate was really getting going). The trouble is, the Republicans, at the demand of the Tea Party Caucus, keep asking for more.

I think by now it's clear that the Tea Party Caucus isn't even motivated by an honest ideological concern for the good of the country. (They have to understand the consequences of leaving these conflicting laws in place, and their desire to downsize the federal government and balance the budget immediately would result in massive unemployment and increased spending on unemployment and welfare. No one can be so irresponsible.)

I think they're only motivated now to oppose Obama no matter what.

At this point, the budget cuts Obama and enough Democrats in Congress have agreed to are to the right of what most voting Republicans have long wanted.
 
It's actually not Obama's job to present plans.
But it is customary for the president to submit a proposal. And Obama did. Back in January (IIRC) he presented his proposal which mostly included a spending freeze on all non-essential government programs. There was a time when such a proposal would have been considered fiscally conservative and even austere. But his proposal was hardly even considered. Instead, most negotiations were modified versions of Republican plans.

And pretty much what happened is Republicans made a proposal with spending cuts (compared to the previous budget) and extending the temporary Bush tax cuts even further (or making them permanent). Democrats responded by offering a compromise that involved cuts, but not as deep. The Republicans responded by saying no. Eventually, Democrats acceded to everything the Republicans asked for, and they responded by asking for more--even threatening to shut down the government over policy issue that had insignificant (barely measurable) impact on the budget.

Meanwhile, unemployment has stayed high and state and local governments have all gone broke, so Democrats asked for an extension of federal funding for unemployment benefits. The only "compromise" was granting that in exchange for extending the temporary Bush tax cuts another year. While the unemployment benefit extension is likely to expire (or has it already?), the extension of the temporary Bush tax cuts seems to have morphed into permanence. In the negotiations wrt to the debt ceiling issue, Obama and enough Democrats have already agreed to plans that would leave those tax cuts in place.

So yes, I blame the Tea Party Caucus of the Republican Party for undermining good faith negotiations. They aren't recognizing that reasonable minds can disagree, and the way to reach a compromise is for both sides to give in.

[ETA: Sorry--I drifted off your comment pretty far. Yes, Obama did make a budget proposal, but it wasn't even seriously considered by Republicans in Congress.]
 
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But it is customary for the president to submit a proposal.

I misunderstood what seayakin was asking. I read "One of the things I've wondered about is why Obama never presented a plan that Boehner calls for" as asking why Obama didn't endorse Boehner's most recent bill (the one that just got voted down in the Senate). But now I see that he meant "as Boehner calls for" rather than "that Boehner calls for."

-Bri
 
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I misunderstood what seayakin was asking. I read "One of the things I've wondered about is why Obama never presented a plan that Boehner calls for" as asking why Obama didn't endorse Boehner's most recent bill (the one that just got voted down in the Senate). But now I see that he meant "as Boehner calls for" rather than "that Boehner calls for."

And of course the answer to that question is that Boehner modified his plan (to accommodate the Tea Party Caucus) to make the second increment of the debt ceiling dependent on a balanced budget amendment. Boehner knows full well this is a deal breaker. The Tea Party Caucus is happy to cast votes as political theater, but Boehner should know better.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
You guys simply spent all the money.

That's what's overly simple.



It's really not hard to understand. Repeat it a couple of times.

We spent all the money.
We spent all the money....
You said, "You guys simply spent all the money." I'm asking you to elaborate before I can determine wether you are being inadvertently or intentionally simplistic and misleading.
 
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You said, "You guys simply spent all the money." I'm asking you to elaborate before I can determine wether you are being inadvertently or intentionally simplistic and misleading.

Elaborate? On what?

Who the "you guys" is? All the looters.
 
So I did a little research on the "phenomenon" you referred to, usually known as "Hauser's Law" (the proposition was first put forward in 1993 by William Kurt Hauser).

… snip …

One problem is that in order for the numbers to work, individual tax rates are usually compared with overall tax revenues. If you pull out corporate taxes it changes the results. More importantly, if you pull out taxes from social insurance programs like Social Security, the results change dramatically.

Actually, this critique is not aimed at Hauser's Law … only at the conservative assertion that raising taxes on the rich does not work. Hauser's law itself is perfectly true. Regardless of tax rates (in any component of that triad), total tax revenues have remained in a very narrow range for about 65 years. And there is probably a reason for that … one which has to do with basic human nature.

Which is why I have several criticisms of your *experts* thinking.

First, it seems to me that these so-called experts are ignoring any linkage between the various *tax* components. But they are linked in various ways. They do influence one another. Hauser's law may, in fact, reflect some inherent level of total tax revenue (as a percent of GDP) that Americans will accept. Go above that level and, one way or another, people will find a way to drive the total taxes, as a percentage of GDP, back down.

Most people inherently like the concept of private property. They like to own things. The right of ownership and private property were fundamentally important to this nation's founders. And if you take things or money away from such people, at some point they decide to call it theft. Since your sources indicate that during the last 65 years individual taxes have gone up slightly, it may be that lowering corporate rates during the same period is the only reason the government got away with raising social insurance. We might have revolted, otherwise. Remember, this country was founded because the British tried to impose a rather minor tax over what people were used to paying at the time (a few percent).

Also, the three tax components may more directly affect one another. For example, it may be that raising individual rates is part of the reason more social insurance was necessary. People had less money to build their own retirement package. One reason that both husband and wife now have to work to make ends meet is because the government takes too much from them. It didn't use to be that way. Keep taking more and we might have to put our children to work. Assuming of course that the higher taxes don't totally stop job growth so there are no jobs.

Which leads me to my second criticism. Where is what taxes do to GDP figured into these *experts'* analyses? Sure, they are dividing revenues by GDP but they aren't singling out what the tax rates caused the GDP to do. The level of taxes does impact the behavior of people and businesses, and that impacts GDP growth, and that impacts tax revenues. Tax revenues may be going up because GDP went up because tax rates went down and that stimulated growth. In fact, I can prove that with data from one of your sources: http://www.angrybearblog.com/2010/11/hausers-law-is-extremely-misleading.html , in an example that also shows we must question the truthfulness of your sources.

That source published this graph

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8UVGnCIfO...oAy0Eg_r1dE/s1600/Hauser%27s_Law_Figure_1.bmp

and claims it shows that when taxes go up (supposedly the periods of red in the graph), revenues as a percentage of GDP go up. And, furthermore, that revenues in those periods are higher than the average revenues in the chart. Thus, they conclude that raising taxes isn't counter-productive but actually creates long term revenue growth.

But that chart is dishonest. Because during about half of the period from 1990 to 2001 (which is the majority of the identified red in the chart), taxes actually went down … not up as claimed or implied. Sure, from 1990 to 1995, when democrats at first controlled one house and then both houses of Congress, there were tax hikes, as well as lots of talk about enacting even higher taxes. But when Republicans gained control of the House and Senate in January of 1995, they promised and then forced through major tax cuts. So half of the largest block of red in that chart should actually be colored grey. Which makes me wonder about the accuracy of the other two red zones and the rest of what is claimed by that author.

Now (this is very important) notice that during the first half of that time period, when taxes were increased, GDP remained stagnant (it only went from $6.5 trillion to $6.6 trillion). Those tax increases had a chilling effect on the behavior of businesses and people. But after 1995, when republicans promised to cut taxes and actually did cut taxes, GDP exploded. It rose from $6.6 trillion to almost $10 trillion by December 2000. It rose because taxes went down, not because taxes went up as the author claimed.

That chart is misleadingly used in another way. It is being used to suggest that raising individual tax rates in the 90's is what caused the percent of GDP collected in total taxes to go up. Indeed, this source (http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2011/04/27/why-should-taxes-be-18-percent-of-gdp-3/ ) has a chart (http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Bob-TaxVox-Apr-26-2011-shrunken3.gif ) that shows what each of the tax components did in the 1990 to 2001 timespan. And sure enough, you can see from that chart that the rise in total taxes is almost entirely due to a rise in individual income tax collections.

But be careful. That does not mean that individual tax rates went up. After 1995, when most of the increase in tax revenues occurred, they went down. What happened is that even though they cut tax rates, they still didn't reduce the top rates below the 18-19% that total tax revenues were at when they cut the individual rates. So when the GDP took off and taxes were collected on all that extra money being made, those in the top brackets who by far paid most of the taxes on all that extra GDP, paid them at marginal tax rates that were still far above the average 18-19% tax rate in the total tax revenue chart. So the total tax revenue number naturally rose. In short, contrary to the claim or suggestion of your source, higher taxes did not result in greater tax revenues.

And the biggest fallacy of all in what Obama and your sources claim is the notion that you can reduce the deficit and debt mostly by taxing the rich. I suggest you watch this video if you want to see why that is utter nonsense and an impossibility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ

Finally, what world do you live in? Do you really think that the wealthiest 1% (or even 5%) will be the only ones to pay higher taxes if Obama and his *true believers* get their way? They may temper their verbage in the most public forums, but behind the scenes they are talking among themselves about taxing the less than *uber rich* … and corporations … and small businesses … and just about everyone who isn't already dependent on the government. And since business taxes will drive up costs that are passed on to consumers, even the very poor will end up paying for those higher taxes.

But perhaps that's ok … if you are Obama and the democrat leadership.

Because, in my opinion, their real goal isn't to reduce the debt or balance the budget, but to make people more dependent on them. :mad:

There is also a simple scale problem -- graphs typically used to illustrate Hauser's Law show the revenue on a 100-point scale, but the difference between 14% of GDP and 21% of GDP is actually quite large in terms of revenue.

This is simply handwaving. Scale has nothing to do with complaining that the data remains within the 14% to 21% range from 1945 to 2009 (with an average closer to 18% than 19.5%), yet under Obama's Extended Baseline Scenario, according to tha CBO report you linked, starting about 2015 revenues will exceed 21% and continue climbing (matching spending) from then on (reaching about 24% twenty years later). It simply defies what history shows happens with taxes and revenue. It's FANTASY, no matter what sources you pull out of your *hat*.

At the proper scale, you can also see the correlation between tax increases and increased revenue and tax decreases and decreased revenue.

Only if you cherry pick the taxes.

Only if you ignore what taxes really do to economic growth.

And only if you ignore all the counter examples that have been demonstrated repeatedly on threads just like this one.

:D
 
And the biggest fallacy of all in what Obama and your sources claim is the notion that you can reduce the deficit and debt mostly by taxing the rich.

So the "biggest fallacy" with the claims made by Obama and the sources I cited is something that nobody actually claimed? Obama doesn't claim that you can reduce the deficit and debt "mostly by taxing the rich." Nor do I recall any of the sources I cited making that claim.

Aside from a minority of conservatives who don't want taxes raised under any circumstances ever, the rest of the world believes that a combination of spending cuts, closing tax loopholes, and raising tax rates has the best chance of balancing the budget without entirely pulling the plug on the poor and elderly. Many economists believe that taxes will likely have to be raised on both the rich and the middle class. And most believe that spending cuts should exceed revenue increases by a ratio of approximately 3 to 1 or more.

Your argument is that we shouldn't consider raising taxes on the rich because of Hauser's Law, which says that the overall tax revenues will never exceeded approximately 21% of GDP because they haven't done so in the past (of course, it used to be 19% until revenues actually did exceed 19%). Even if Hauser's Law is true (despite the fact that nobody but you actually takes it seriously), revenues are currently 14.8% (the lowest they've been since the 1950's) so that's not really an argument against raising taxes until revenues increase to 21%.

-Bri
 

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