Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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Chris, just reading your response to TFK, I also went back and listened to the clip I have. Again, assuming we're referring to the same clip, I still have to disagree with you about John Gross. Here's my transcript of his response to the allegation of 'huge pools of molten steel'

'First of all let's go back to your premise that there was a pool of molten steel.
I know of absolutely nobody (possibly he says nothing), no eyewitness who said so, nobody who has produced it....I was on the site I was on the steel yards,I don't know that that's so'.

Again, he states that he does not know of this. That simply indicates his personal knowledge, which he reiterates with 'I don't know that that's so'.
Chris, this is not a misstatement on his part. He is giving an opinion, fairly well qualified and defined in reference to the allegation of huge pools, but not to the general notion of molten steel.

I think the conflation of those things and the lack of distinction are the fault of Richard Gage and other truthers, not John Gross. I think Gage plays very fast and loose with his references, as in this case, but also in countless others. On that I hope we agree. :)
 
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HushaBoom baby. HushaBoom!

Reminds me that a couple of weeks ago we had to relocate a recording session (from Bryan Adam's studio in downtown Vancouver) because of construction noise in the area.

I wish we could buy some of these mythical mics that truthers talk about which can selectively block out sounds you don't want! It would save a lot of time and money not having to build iso booths and studios!! ;)

Actually, mics are so good at picking up extraneous noise that we often have to 'ride' click tracks that are fed into musician's headphones because the 'click' will 'bleed' into the instrument track -just as you can sometimes hear the music from someone's earbuds if you sit next to them on the bus. It's the same thing.

An SPL of 110db in the vicinity of Ashley Banfield would have been similar to someone starting up a jackhammer - I daresay she would have had a rather violent reaction to it, and it would have obliterated anything she was trying to say.

But what do I know? I've only worked in the industry for 20 years...:rolleyes:
 
Regarding moment frames, is that the same as in the twin towers?
As I understand it, the exterior walls of the twin towers were basically vierendeel trusses, which means they were also moment frames.

To suggest that every connection between every floor and outer frame structure was weak enough to break instantly thus showing no deformation in the outer walls is plain stupid and you know that too. The walls showed no such inward pull at all - but in your world that must be because the "pins" just got up and left the building.

No one has suggested that they all broke instantly or that there was no deformation in the outer walls. And how would you necessarily see the deformations in walls which were covered in granite? Or for that matter how would you see lesser deformations from the distances shown in the videos? The windows started breaking early on, which certainly indicates some kind of differential motion going on.

Part of the exterior frame:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc7grid.html

Hmm... yep, failed shear connections.
 
Reminds me that a couple of weeks ago we had to relocate a recording session (from Bryan Adam's studio in downtown Vancouver) because of construction noise in the area.

I wish we could buy some of these mythical mics that truthers talk about which can selectively block out sounds you don't want! It would save a lot of time and money not having to build iso booths and studios!! ;)

Actually, mics are so good at picking up extraneous noise that we often have to 'ride' click tracks that are fed into musician's headphones because the 'click' will 'bleed' into the instrument track -just as you can sometimes hear the music from someone's earbuds if you sit next to them on the bus. It's the same thing.

An SPL of 110db in the vicinity of Ashley Banfield would have been similar to someone starting up a jackhammer - I daresay she would have had a rather violent reaction to it, and it would have obliterated anything she was trying to say.

But what do I know? I've only worked in the industry for 20 years...:rolleyes:

I've done a lot of recording in studios although as a drummer, not a recording engineer - I first recorded in 1986. I agree with you that noise bleed is a perpetual problem although in studio conditions that is always magnified because the aim is to have none. I'm not an expert with mics since I've only ever needed to take advice from other people but I do know the Shure mics for my kit are of several technical varieties to capture the frequencies correctly and limit bleed and that the overheads will pick up the sounds of the cymbals and not so much the drums even though they are as close and a snare drum can be way over 110 dB.

The reason you stated I was a troll is because I asked you what the dB level of a collapsing steel building is and why the noise of WTC7 collapsing during the Ashleigh Banfield interview is so faint considering the close proximity of the building? I can only assume you took it that I was attempting to distort the argument but I was asking a reasonable and rational question. I do know that mics have directional qualities and that ambient noise conditions change the way a mic picks up sound, even loud sounds like hitting a drum. A mic's reach is dependent on the background noise.
 
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As I understand it, the exterior walls of the twin towers were basically vierendeel trusses, which means they were also moment frames.



No one has suggested that they all broke instantly or that there was no deformation in the outer walls. And how would you necessarily see the deformations in walls which were covered in granite? Or for that matter how would you see lesser deformations from the distances shown in the videos? The windows started breaking early on, which certainly indicates some kind of differential motion going on.

Part of the exterior frame:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc7grid.html

Hmm... yep, failed shear connections.

You'd expect failed shear connections in a collapsed building!

That bit of exterior wall is from the 22 and 23 floors because it is the heavily braced belt truss. That was of course going to be a very strong section of the outer frame.
 
Hi Chris,

Sound Pressure Levels for hypothetical explosives are detailed in NCSTAR 1-9, p 693 under
'Appendix D
HYPOTHETICAL BLAST SCENARIOS '

I can't quote the whole document here, it's too long. But relevant to questions regarding the accuracy of the estimate, I venture that there is simply no comparison between the NIST study and typical truther arguments from incredulity. It's not even a fair contest in terms of reliability - not that this will have an effect on truthers...

'D.3.1 SHAMRC Blast Modeling Code
SHAMRC (Crepeau 1998, Crepeau 2001) is a U.S. government-owned hydrocode solver that is used for analysis of explosive detonations, shock propagation, and structure loads due to blast and fragments. SHAMRC has a proven record of accurate calculations of airblast structural loading for explosive weights of less than one pound to more than 4,000 tons. SHAMRC has also been used to calculate the formation
and propagation of shaped charge jets and their interaction with structures. The code was well suited for the blast propagation analysis performed on WTC 7.
For the blast modeling effort, detailed two-dimensional SHAMRC hydrodynamic calculations were performed. The interior building layout was modeled to determine the transient pressure load inside the building after detonation. A two-dimensional analysis was sufficient to estimate pressures at window
locations for a small charge constrained between floors. The pressure histories were then used to determine whether windows would have broken, which would have provided visible evidence of a small charge detonation outside of the building. The window fragility analysis was conducted with a separate computational tool, SFOM, using window geometry, material properties, and construction information as
inputs to the model. The output from SFOM was Pressure-Impulse (P-I) failure curve predictions for WTC 7 windows. The SHAMRC-generated pressure histories were compared to the failure curves to predict window failure for each scenario considered. '

Effects on glass windows:

'D.3.3 Estimation of WTC 7 Perimeter Window Fragility
A Shard Fly-out Model (SFOM) (Meyer 2002∗) was used to predict window breakage, based on the pressure profiles from the SHAMRC analysis. The SFOM was originally developed for the Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) to predict window breakage as well as size and shape of shards created by blast loading'


'D.4 PHASE III: 1-D ACOUSTIC ANALYSIS
Based on the results from Phase II, representative overpressure waveforms from the predicted broken windows on the north and east faces, as well as from open areas at the southwest corner from WTC 1 debris damage, were used to make sound-distance propagation predictions. '

SUMMARY

...'In Phase III, an acoustic analysis was performed to assess the distance from the building that the blast would have been audible. Analyses were performed for both layout scenarios, using the pressure history and window failure location predictions generated during Phase II. For all scenarios and charge sizes, significant audible sound was predicted from all building faces. For locations where sound propagation
was unobstructed, the sound level from all building perimeter openings at 1 km would have been approximately 130 dB to140 dB. '

In the case of the Ashley Banfield video, there is a direct line of sight to WTC 7 which is just a few blocks away. This would indicate a real explosive demolition as hypothesized by 9/11 Truthers would have easily reached 110db to 120db at the location of Ms Banfield and her microphone.
There is simply no plausible explanation as to how this could have happened without being clearly recorded by her microphone.

Similarly for the second clip I provided, there is a direct line-of-sight to WTC 7, but not for its entire length. Again, at a distance of less than 1/2 mile (approx. 2000 ft) a conservative SPL level would be in the 110db to 130db range.

To put this in perspective for the microphone, this is louder than a jackhammer at 1 metre, and roughly equivalent to a jet engine at 100m or a vuvuzela horn at 1m.

Again, an explosive controlled demolition is not a realistic scenario from this data alone, and truthers have not even attempted to validate their claims in a scientific manner. Instead they continue to make what are essentially bare assertions with no data in support.

This video would lend a lot of support to what those firemen were saying in the list. Do you believe that the same kind of reasoning you used to explain their atatements applies to all or most of the witnesses in the video ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2cViy34b1A&feature=player_embedded#at=595
 
Quite probably, never.

I didn't say the reaching of that tipping point was in sight or even close but that it would have to occur for people to start asking serious questions.

Would that explain the lack of serious questions to date?

That said, the Japanese Government did look at the 9/11 conspiracy theories in 2008.

And what did they conclude after their investigation?
 
SPL is inversely proportional to distance. Knock off about 50db at 500m from source. And db is a logarithmic measure, it's not linear.

Verinage videos, not using explosives, demonstrate that the sound of collapse is distinguishable from background noise and crowd noise at typical viewing distances, which are much less than 1km away from source. They're more like 250m.

If the source sound is 120db at 1m, for example, you wouldn't hear much at 1km. It would reduce to roughly 60db, depending on conditions. If there are reflective surfaces you'd hear more, for example. 60db is the upper limit for normal spoken conversation, as a comparison.

Anyone whose interested can play around with calculators online like this one:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distancelaw.htm

A further consideration is the frequency range of the sounds you are capturing. Low frequencies carry better (that's why you can hear the subwoofer of a car stereo on the street, or your neighbor's home theatre system thumping) so over distance the sound of a collapse will become a rumble, with less high-frequency content.

The human voice is not a broad-spectrum noise. It is a pulsed sound of fairly focused range, which is why you can still hear the sounds of collapse whilst people are talking and commenting. You can check any demolition video.
 
So there is evidence of molten steel then?

The debunkers argument is based entirely on semantics.


Failed English 101 as well? Still waiting to hear what school you went to and what course you studied.

Curious too as to why you stopped being an architect after only 20 years?
 
Steel buckles and expands in heat, the Cardington trials proved that beyond a shadow of doubt as do all the steel building fires which have ever been. The steel in the Windsor Tower failed because much of the steel wasn't fireproofed


You were asked and AFAIK failed to answer....how long was the fireproofing in WTC7 rated for? And do you realize why that would be relevant?;)
 
SPL is inversely proportional to distance. Knock off about 50db at 500m from source. And db is a logarithmic measure, it's not linear.

Verinage videos, not using explosives, demonstrate that the sound of collapse is distinguishable from background noise and crowd noise at typical viewing distances, which are much less than 1km away from source. They're more like 250m.

If the source sound is 120db at 1m, for example, you wouldn't hear much at 1km. It would reduce to roughly 60db, depending on conditions. If there are reflective surfaces you'd hear more, for example. 60db is the upper limit for normal spoken conversation, as a comparison.

Anyone whose interested can play around with calculators online like this one:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distancelaw.htm

A further consideration is the frequency range of the sounds you are capturing. Low frequencies carry better (that's why you can hear the subwoofer of a car stereo on the street, or your neighbor's home theatre system thumping) so over distance the sound of a collapse will become a rumble, with less high-frequency content.

The human voice is not a broad-spectrum noise. It is a pulsed sound of fairly focused range, which is why you can still hear the sounds of collapse whilst people are talking and commenting. You can check any demolition video.

Amazing. Millions of tons of 3 buildings are completely destroyed in less than 60 seconds and this guy is scratching his head over low frequencies carrying better. What planet are debunkers from?
 
Yes. What calculations could be necessary beyond what we calculated with our own eyes?
Three buildings were damaged in three different levels of severity and in different locations. Yet all three were totally demolished by sudden structural failures that took place in less than 20 seconds each.

That's my calculation.

Most people use their brains for calculations.
 
Amazing. Millions of tons of 3 buildings are completely destroyed in less than 60 seconds and this guy is scratching his head over low frequencies carrying better. What planet are debunkers from?

So you didn't understand a word of it. No surprise there.
 
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