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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Any ideas how C&V assembled the bibliography they used in their report?

I have seen a lot of speculation on this but to me it is not important. By any protocols what was done in the handling of the crime scene and testing was both unprofessional and sub-standard. Most of the things that were done improperly should have been a matter of common sense.
 
Yes, the appeal submissions argued that Massei's court was negligent in failing to investigate the inmates' stories, and asked that Hellmann's court corrected this negligence.

I've already made a follow-up post on this issue, but if you require further clarification, maybe it's a good idea to think of the court as an additional quasi-police force. In Italy, criminal courts have both the power and the obligation to initiate investigation if such investigation has the possibility in aiding the overall search for the truth. What the defence teams were therefore saying, in essence, was this:

"We (the defence) know of allegations that have been made by two separate groups of inmates which, if true, would have a significant impact upon our clients' cases. We have no idea whether there is any truth or substantiation to either of these allegations, and we have no powers of our own to investigate the claims properly. However, you (the courts) do have the powers of investigation, and you also have the obligation to investigate these claims. Massei's court should have investigated the claims to find out whether or not either one was true, but Massei's court was negligent in failing to do so. We (the defence) therefore request that you (Hellmann's court) investigate these claims properly (by calling the inmates to testify under oath, coupled with other efforts to verify or disprove the claims), so that everyone can find out whether or not either of these claims has any truth to them."

Hope this makes things a little clearer. The inmates were not defence witnesses. The defence requested that the courts use their investigative powers to determine properly whether either story was true/reliable/supportable.
So the appeal court would have called the inmates anyway because it is legally obligated to do so for the reason you stated above.

Thank you.
 
After reading the last handful of off topic posts, can anyone wonder why this thread has regularly been put on moderated status?

So let's discuss the case and the trial then?

In my view of what should be proved to convict someone of murder you normally need to provide some very basic proof in some very critical areas of evidence put before the court.

Motive and oppurtunity and suspicious behaviour and all that is all very well, but what the prosecution basically has to do is to show how, where and by what means the crime was commited. (And of course things like that there has been a crime commited in the first place and that there is intent and so on. )

In this case, the prosecution has to show that Knox and Sollecito were present at the murder scene at the time of the crime, who they participated in the murder and who they were connected to Guede.

Without the knife, the bra clasp and Curatolos testimony there remains nothing to connect them to the crime in this way.

There is no murder weapon.

There is no witness to say other than that Knox and Sollecito spend the night at Sollecito's flat, and there alibi is thereby not disproven. There is no physical evidence of Knox and Sollecito in the room where Kercer was killed or on the victims body.

There is nothing to connect them to Rudy Guede, no communication between them whatsover that can prove they did meet up with him at the night of the murder and you need to add that to the fact that there is no known connection between them before that point either. All that is shown is that Knox and Guede had met socially, but not that they met when not part of a larger group.

This is enough to establish reasonable doubt in my opinion and you can add to that the testimony of Rudy Guede himself and that of Mario Alessi and som other inmates that Guede acted alone. The rest doesn't matter. Even if the staged break-in still seems likely to the court, even if the clean up seems likely to the court, even if the changing stories of Knox and Sollecito seem suspicious to the court, even if the mixed DNA and footprints can raise doubt of their innocence, even if the footprint of the bathmat could be Sollecito's and not Guede's; it's still not clear evidence of participation in the murder itself. Therefore they should be acquitted.

I can't imagine this Italian court to reason any other way. The main reason for Massei's court to come up with a guilty verdict was the DNA evidence, the bloody footprint of Sollecito and what they percivied as the suspicious behaviour of Knox and Sollecito. Everything else in the Massei report just followed from that.

All under the assumption that the knife, bra clasp and Curatolo have been thoroughly discredited in the eyes of the court.
 
I have seen a lot of speculation on this but to me it is not important. By any protocols what was done in the handling of the crime scene and testing was both unprofessional and sub-standard. Most of the things that were done improperly should have been a matter of common sense.

But why would*court appointed*, *independent* native Italian speakers, working in Italy, reporting to an Italian court be referencing obscure (to Europeans) American highway patrol handbooks? Very, very very odd.
 
But why would*court appointed*, *independent* native Italian speakers, working in Italy, reporting to an Italian court be referencing obscure (to Europeans) American highway patrol handbooks? Very, very very odd.

And what do you make out of it? Any theories?
 
But why would*court appointed*, *independent* native Italian speakers, working in Italy, reporting to an Italian court be referencing obscure (to Europeans) American highway patrol handbooks? Very, very very odd.

If there were a lot of Italian sources I might consider it strange. They reference several European sources. No sources I have seen discussed anywhere justify the way the evidence was handled in this case.
 
But why would*court appointed*, *independent* native Italian speakers, working in Italy, reporting to an Italian court be referencing obscure (to Europeans) American highway patrol handbooks? Very, very very odd.

They were trying to show how widespread the (common-sense) protocols they were citing are. Contrary to what guilters would have you believe, they didn't just reference American handbooks; they also cited Interpol and ENFSI.

You can read that section of the report (translated by katy_did) here.
 
But why would*court appointed*, *independent* native Italian speakers, working in Italy, reporting to an Italian court be referencing obscure (to Europeans) American highway patrol handbooks? Very, very very odd.

Standard of care. Do you base your whole analysis of the actions of the local Perugian police force on the standards set by, e.g., Scotland Yard for the national police force? While such standards are no doubt relevant to your analysis, it would also be prudent to examine the practices of some local yocals more comparabale to the Perugians. Perugia, obviously, has no published standards that could be analyzed (wouldn't that have been a good idea), so we have New Jersey, Wisconsin, etc., which are published standards and which show us a standard of care for more localized police forces.

In the end, though, it's all just belt and suspenders. It doesn't really matter whose standards you look at, because everybody konws, without consulting any manuals, that what happened at this crime scene was a complete clusterf***. LOL, even the Perugian cop said so on the video!
 
Standard of care. Do you base your whole analysis of the actions of the local Perugian police force on the standards set by, e.g., Scotland Yard for the national police force? While such standards are no doubt relevant to your analysis, it would also be prudent to examine the practices of some local yocals more comparabale to the Perugians. Perugia, obviously, has no published standards that could be analyzed (wouldn't that have been a good idea), so we have New Jersey, Wisconsin, etc., which are published standards and which show us a standard of care for more localized police forces.

In the end, though, it's all just belt and suspenders. It doesn't really matter whose standards you look at, because everybody konws, without consulting any manuals, that what happened at this crime scene was a complete clusterf***. LOL, even the Perugian cop said so on the video!

The DNA analysis is like the four huge elephants that stand on the back of an enormous turtle that support innocence/guilt. Meanwhile the gravitational force is the emotion that holds this conviction to the backs of imaginary elephants.
 
I have no firm theory, that is why I asked, but haven't read here any reasonable answer yet.

Why is Komponisto's answer unreasonable? Have you read the report section containing the quotations? BTW it's not a bibliography, the section is titled "Notes on Inspection and Collection Techniques" and by means of quotations shows how universally agreed upon are the rules ILE broke.
 
I have no firm theory, that is why I asked, but haven't read here any reasonable answer yet.


Oh, I see. You want a "reasonable" answer. Well, I guess we can spill the beans.

It all started about 15 years ago, when a guy named Bruce (last name witheld to protect the innocent) surmised that the Kercher murder would occur and Amanda Knox would be implicated. Bruce had been making a fortune selling weapons to rebels in small South American countries. He took some of this money and secretly used it the influence the drafting of crime scene protocols in red neck states in the backward-ass US.

Fast forward 15 years. Operating out of a secret lair, Bruce has now used his fortune to pay off Hellmann to appoint C&V to examine the handling of the Kercher murder. He also paid off C&V to include in their bibliography the falsified crime scene protocols that Bruce had planted years earlier.

Also, last weekend, Bruce had Conti whacked. Bruce had his face surgically altered to look like Conti. He snuck into the courtroom and gave testimony, categorically false in every respect, and played a computer-animated DVD that George Lucas put together, falsely showing that the Perugian cops had violated Bruce's bogus standards and unfairly characterizing them as a bunch of clowns. He cleverly embedded a laugh track on the DVD to make spectators think that other spectators were laughing, thus making the Perugian police look truly ridiculous.

It's all very clever, really.

Oh, one more thing. Why has Bruce done this you ask? Simple. He wants the first interview with Amanda Knox.
 
Why is Komponisto's answer unreasonable? Have you read the report section containing the quotations? BTW it's not a bibliography, the section is titled "Notes on Inspection and Collection Techniques" and by means of quotations shows how universally agreed upon are the rules ILE broke.


And what's more, the overwhelming majority of the primary quoted references are from four major sources: the US Department of Justice, the FBI, Interpol and ENFSI - that last two, of course, being major pan-European bodies. The references to the procedures published by more minor jurisdictions are either supplementary to the primary references, or are merely quoted as having the same procedures as the primary references (as is the case with the Missouri State Highway Patrol's Forensic Lab reference).

To me therefore, anyone zeroing in on the "Highway Patrol" angle or even the "US-centric" angle of this section (which in any case is peripheral to the main body of the report) is either ignorant of what was actually written in this section, or is deliberately choosing to misrepresent what was written. Any thoughts, Bucketoftea?
 
The media getting ready before tomorrow.
Keith Miller from NBC is harsh and antagonistic:
Amanda Knox: Victim of a crazy court system?

Stefano Nazzi - prosecution will question the competence of the experts.


From CBS Crimesider :
There is a desperate, and often ill-advised, gambling strategy called doubling-down. More and more, it seems to have become the strategy of choice by Italian prosecutors in their case against American student Amanda Knox.

bit about Maresca:
Outside of court this week, an Italian reporter asked the Florence-based Maresca if his recent, super-charged courtroom behavior suggested the Kercher lawyer was seeking vengeance over seeking justice.

Earlier in court, the appellate judge had slammed his fist down hard on the stand to silence a Maresca outburst, which had interrupted the DNA expert's testimony.
 
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The media getting ready before tomorrow.
Keith Miller from NBC is harsh and antagonistic:
Amanda Knox: Victim of a crazy court system?

Stefano Nazzi - prosecution will question the competence of the experts.


From CBS Crimesider :
There is a desperate, and often ill-advised, gambling strategy called doubling-down. More and more, it seems to have become the strategy of choice by Italian prosecutors in their case against American student Amanda Knox.

bit about Maresca:
Outside of court this week, an Italian reporter asked the Florence-based Maresca if his recent, super-charged courtroom behavior suggested the Kercher lawyer was seeking vengeance over seeking justice.

Earlier in court, the appellate judge had slammed his fist down hard on the stand to silence a Maresca outburst, which had interrupted the DNA expert's testimony.


Absolutely wonderful.

Steve Moore will be on the Saturday Today show; hopefully he'll get some real time and not just a sound bite.
 
Just a quick note on Stefanoni - she is not being singled out by Hellmann and silenced. Hellmann is not allowing any witnesses on either side. The independent experts, appointed by the court, destroyed the prosecution's case. It's over. Hellmann is cutting summer recess short to put an end to the nightmare. If Massei would have allowed further testing, Amanda and Raffaele would have never been convicted in the first place.
 
Just a quick note on Stefanoni - she is not being singled out by Hellmann and silenced. Hellmann is not allowing any witnesses on either side. The independent experts, appointed by the court, destroyed the prosecution's case. It's over. Hellmann is cutting summer recess short to put an end to the nightmare. If Massei would have allowed further testing, Amanda and Raffaele would have never been convicted in the first place.

Bruce,

You sound like you are in Perugia. Where are you getting this information? Could this thing be over soon? I heard they still have to do the motivations.
 
Just a quick note on Stefanoni - she is not being singled out by Hellmann and silenced. Hellmann is not allowing any witnesses on either side. The independent experts, appointed by the court, destroyed the prosecution's case. It's over. Hellmann is cutting summer recess short to put an end to the nightmare. If Massei would have allowed further testing, Amanda and Raffaele would have never been convicted in the first place.

Amen.
 
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