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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What is crazy is that they are investigating calumnia charges made by accusations against Rudy rather than this guys accusations against Raffaele's lawyer. Just bizarre.

Another example of the defense strategy of bringing these lying liars to testify in court completely backfiring.

There are hints elsewhere that the cops are going to try and claim the evidence collection video was somehow doctored in collusion with the defense.


Actually Rose....and its even crazier still...Mignini is investigating Aveleillo because he slandered his brother. hrumppp...

Toto wasn’t investigated for slandering the defendants...nor was Quintaville ....and he either lied to the police or to the court...or Kokomanic...he certainly lied in court but Mignini did no investigation...Stefanoni lied...no examination...Rita....Monica....both liars...no investigation...But Avelellio brother is slandered and Mignini springs into action.

Its as if corruption at the hands of the court officers is meaningless. They don’t even try to hide the abusive lying tactics. I swear the mafia has more morals. 
 
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coming up on the 30th...

I'm guessing the prosecution (Maresca too), will use the "all crime scenes are not sterile anyway" and "even if there are 500 people's DNA on the bra clasp, it doesnt explain how Raffaeles got on the clasp, that was in Merediths bedroom".

In other words, as they said last time, if you claim contamination you must prove it.

Will it work with Hellman and his appointed experts?

I think the prosecution will have to be very cautious, because in the end Judge Hellman will go to the chambers with the lay judges and they will be lead by him.

Will bullying, badgering and insults work? Probably not.

Will they file charges against the neutral experts? Probably so.
 
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I highly doubt that they were in open communication with the defense. If they were, that would be quite a problem.

More likely, I think, is that their conclusions resemble/echo things said by the defense experts in the first trial. And that would be for the simple reason that they agree with them. Contrary to this being an "incriminating" point, the more experts that come together and agree on a point, the more likely they are to be right.

I'm sure though, that Comodi and Stefanoni are scratching their heads trying to figure out how all these experts could be so wrong, and concluding simplistically that they must be "colluding."



Hold on just a cotton pick in minute here.....Why exactly would it be bad for the independent experts to review the defense and or prosecution versions of the DNA study? I would expect them to review everything. How else can one conclude what actually went wrong? Or if anything did go wrong. One side said this....the other side said that. Both would need looked at to see if one or the other is correct or if perhaps there is a third view that matches neither this nor that.

If the defense complained that the CSI team wore dirty gloves then an independent expert should look and see if dirty rotten gloves were worn. Dirty rotten gloves worn by dirty rotten scoundrels...
 
_________________

Bolint,

Well, I wonder just where the real rock was found. We know where it was when first photographed, on the afternoon of November 2nd, as seen here..........

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/hendry6.jpg[/qimg]
Rock, on the floor of Filomena's bedroom, photographed on afternoon of November 2, 2007.

Notice that the rock is mostly in a shopping bag, and the shopping bag ripped. Suggesting that someone had grabbed the bag by its strap handles, and lifted the bag or dragged the bag across the floor, resulting in the rip. The rock just falling into the bag might crumple the bag but not rip it. Before this photograph was taken eight people had been in Filomena's bedroom investigating what appeared to be a petty burglary, and known to have compromised the scene in other ways.

In her trial testimony, Amanda---one of the first in Filomena's bedroom---said she saw no rock. If Amanda is telling the truth, this suggests that when Amanda entered Filomena's bedroom the rock was still fully inside the shopping bag and, later, someone moved the bag, causing it to rip and topple over, exposing the rock, as seen in the photograph.

///



Actually no. If you look closely the bag hit the "leg" of the chair as it tipped over. This would allow the rock to tear the bag exactly as shown. No interaction necessary.

And speaking of the rock position....the defense reenactment isn’t precise in that the rock did not hit the inner shutter exactly as Rudy's rock did. We have the fresh dent on the inner shutter to show us exactly where Rudy's rock hit...that being the lower right (facing) corner. This strike position would cause a more rightward deflection of the rock than the defense example which was done more to show glass dispersement. Anyone who has ever played pool and has had to bank a shot would see that the Rudy rock position is exactly where it should be. Its not complicated....its easy...just look.
 
Well all that does is prove that you supplied the photo to BOTH Frank and the Independant experts, and we already know that YOU are really a collection of paid PR shills for FoA, so that proves the whole thing is a sham!!!!!!11!!



Yes plus we all know you are just a Bruce Fisher TM and Frank Sfarzo TM is one too.

So Coulson....what did you think of the independant expert review of the DNA evidence?
 
Here is another comment about photographs. This time from Skeptical Bystander: "let's say some of the images used can be traced directly to the FOA or Marriott"


Where does Skeptical Bystander think the photos came from? The photos came from the case files. Does anyone honestly dispute that? Does Skeptical Bystander believe that those photos were not already made available to the independent experts, or is she saying that the experts are incompetent and required the help of Charlie/Bruce/Frank?

If conspiracy theories are now going to be created to justify why Amanda Knox will soon to be free then I think the conspiracy theorists need to try a little bit harder.
 
Actually no. If you look closely the bag hit the "leg" of the chair as it tipped over. This would allow the rock to tear the bag exactly as shown. No interaction necessary.

And speaking of the rock position....the defense reenactment isn’t precise in that the rock did not hit the inner shutter exactly as Rudy's rock did. We have the fresh dent on the inner shutter to show us exactly where Rudy's rock hit...that being the lower right (facing) corner. This strike position would cause a more rightward deflection of the rock than the defense example which was done more to show glass dispersement. Anyone who has ever played pool and has had to bank a shot would see that the Rudy rock position is exactly where it should be. Its not complicated....its easy...just look.

The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy (drawing the target after you've fired the shot) is a favourite of the guilters.

As far as they are concerned if you can't replicate a semi-random incident like an irregularly-shaped rock hitting a closed wooden shutter with an unknown amount of spin at an unknown angle, and get exactly the same outcome right down to the final position of the irregularly-shaped rock and the tear in the paper bag, it proves it was all staged.

Whereas they don't need to even try to replicate the zebra hypothesis that the rock was thrown from inside the room to be right. Massei said that was how it was, and that's good enough for them. Who needs ballistics experts or a recreation when you can just have a judge make **** up?
 
Charlie Wilkes corrected me about the photos! I was wrong all along. FOA controlled everything. In a shocking revelation, here's what Charlie had to say:

"Reading Ganong on PMF, about the images in C&V's presentation, and thinking, "if only she knew the half of it." It was a lot of trouble for FOA to produce that crime scene video. We spared no expense, renting a house in Umbria, importing a troop of baboons and dressing them in Tyvek suits... The hardest part was finding a Mignini look-alike. Fortunately Hekuran Kokomani has an older brother who was just right once we fattened him up. He stayed sober long enough for us to get the shots we needed, but it was touch-and-go all the way. Next time Marriott hands me a briefcase stuffed with cash, I'm gonna think twice before I take the assignment."
 
Hrm. It appears this innocent post of mine attracted some attention...and misunderstandings. Allow me to clarify in my response:

Hrm. It appears my attempt at clarification was unsuccessful, it only served to confuse some further, thus allow me to reiterate:

The reason I said Vanessa Sollecito wouldn't have participated in this laughable attempt was because she was a police officer and would know instantly it wouldn't work, not because she was a police officer and would never do such a thing. In fact I implied the opposite with:

...thus were she to attempt to suborn perjury to help save her innocent brother, she'd have done a whole lot better than finding some clown who has been convicted of slander seven or eight times for testimony in court to produce an easily falsifiable story. She was a police officer, she'd do it a whole lot better than that!

Now, I don't actually think she would do such a thing, but I also don't think it impossible. That means it is possible but certainly not probable, those two words don't instantly follow each other in my world, one being 'argument' or 'proof' of the other, that's the silliest damn thing I've ever heard of from a judge. She obviously cares deeply for her brother, as I recall she offered to break a finger to get leave to help him, and I have a vague memory from somewhere that there were angry words about a jailbreak, but I cannot recall if that was something she or her father actually said when their phones were tapped or something someone else said about it, and I have no idea where I'd find it now. At any rate I do think it not impossible she might go beyond the bounds of propriety to try to help Raffaele.

My (actual) point was she'd have nothing to do with this attempt because it had a zero percent chance of success, was high risk, and she would obviously know that having been a police officer. She'd know instantly that someone with seven or so (I can't recall if his calunnia charge in this appeal was his eighth or he had eight coming in and I don't care enough to check) convictions for lying in court would have dubious credibility, that the story would have to check out, and that the Court would obviously verify to see if there was any truth to it, like they did. Thus why would anyone bother with such an attempt?

Incidentally, were something like this tried, it wouldn't have to solve the crime merely raise the spectre of reasonable doubt. Thus Meredith's DNA wouldn't have to be present, just the knife matching the wounds that tested positive for blood and the knife kept in an environment where blood traces would still be plausible but DNA unlikely, which isn't that difficult to conceive of. Thus the court would hear a story of someone claiming they knew who was involved who'd fled the country and where they hid the murder knife. The knife would be recovered, test positive for blood, be shown to match the wounds, and it be said that the conditions prevented DNA recovery. Think underwater if you're having trouble imagining this possibility. ;)

I must say I especially like this quote:

So this is the increasingly desperate way we justify the imposing double standards. The prosecution can be corrupt and admit corrupt evidence because the court is also corrupt and won't ask any questions. Pathetic!

That pretty much sums it up! Right down to the 'pathetic' designation! :p

However I would add that the Court isn't necessarily inherently corrupt, simply that it easily corruptible for this reason. There are stringent rules of admissibility and what evidence jurors are allowed to consider in their deliberations most places, not so in Italy. The prosecution can basically introduce just about anything it wants, and the defense may rebut--however if it's only the word of the prosecution against the word of the defense there might be a problem. As an Italian forensic expert put it:

Legal experts also share concerns about Italy's bar for admissibility. Il Giornale, a conservative newspaper, for instance, recently published an interview with Marco Morin, a Venice-based firearms expert who declared he no longer wanted to work in Italian courts. "In the United States, federal judges must study a 637-page manual in order to be able to evaluate [forensic] evidence," he told the newspaper. "Here, they accept everything without questioning, as long as it comes from the institutional laboratory."

Introducing luminol stains that tested negative for blood with TMB, negative for DNA, were never subjected to a confirmatory test, and all this information hidden from the defense and not discovered until by accident, but the prosecution can still stand up and say something to the effect of 'it could be blood or turnip juice, you decide' and have the judge sign off on that is atrocious. Not doing the confirmatory test but pretending that means she can lie and say they 'didn't test negative for blood'--despite the negative TMB test--is such an appalling mendacity it beggars belief! For most samples there's no point doing a confirmatory test if they test negative with TMB, because TMB gives false positives not false negatives except in rare circumstances not present in this case, namely interference by acids or reduction agents, very old stains, and highly diluted ones.

You can pretty much eliminate the possibility there was interference by acid or reduction agents, being as there's luminol footprints right next to Rudy Guede's shoeprints that tested positive for blood with TMB in the hall. Obviously the age of the stains producing a false negative would preclude them as relevant in this case, being as if they were years old they couldn't have had anything to do with the murder. Stains so highly diluted they couldn't be picked up by TMB wouldn't have given off the chemiluminescent glow that was described and photographed, and there's just no way stains that diluted would have had anything to do with the murder, though (some of them) might have been the result of Amanda taking a shower the next morning.

If they pretended they were blood due to an initial luminol hit, with a negative TMB, and didn't do a confirmatory test, that's about as dishonest as you can get in 'proving' for blood. Massei's attempt to fit them into the crime is vague and laughable, as he has Amanda presumably flying over the numerous areas necessary to traverse to get from one set of prints to the other. One thing that should be kept in mind is he had to try to fit what evidence was produced into the crime when writing his report, though sometimes he differed with their interpretation such as the mixed DNA traces, as long as he thought it was still possible, he just made it probable. Fitting datum into post-hoc rationalizations isn't any sort of standard of evidence, it's something the judge has to do in Italy as it's his job, where that oversight of evidence mattered was when the jury was hearing it and deciding if it was an indication of guilt.
 
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Charlie Wilkes corrected me about the photos! I was wrong all along. FOA controlled everything. In a shocking revelation, here's what Charlie had to say:

"Reading Ganong on PMF, about the images in C&V's presentation, and thinking, "if only she knew the half of it." It was a lot of trouble for FOA to produce that crime scene video. We spared no expense, renting a house in Umbria, importing a troop of baboons and dressing them in Tyvek suits... The hardest part was finding a Mignini look-alike. Fortunately Hekuran Kokomani has an older brother who was just right once we fattened him up. He stayed sober long enough for us to get the shots we needed, but it was touch-and-go all the way. Next time Marriott hands me a briefcase stuffed with cash, I'm gonna think twice before I take the assignment."

You know, Charlie needs to be careful saying stuff like this, some at PMF are likely to believe it.
 
You can pretty much eliminate the possibility there was interference by acid or reduction agents, being as there's luminol footprints right next to Rudy Guede's shoeprints that tested positive for blood with TMB in the hall. Obviously the age of the stains producing a false negative would preclude them as relevant in this case, being as if they were years old they couldn't have had anything to do with the murder. Stains so highly diluted they couldn't be picked up by TMB wouldn't have given off the chemiluminescent glow that was described and photographed, and there's just no way stains that diluted would have had anything to do with the murder, though (some of them) might have been the result of Amanda taking a shower the next morning.

Something I keep meaning to ask. If there has been a clean up with bleach using a mop, wouldn't the luminol testing have picked up the spots where they had cleaned by reacting with the bleach?
 
Here is another comment about photographs. This time from Skeptical Bystander: "let's say some of the images used can be traced directly to the FOA or Marriott"


Where does Skeptical Bystander think the photos came from? The photos came from the case files. Does anyone honestly dispute that? Does Skeptical Bystander believe that those photos were not already made available to the independent experts, or is she saying that the experts are incompetent and required the help of Charlie/Bruce/Frank?

If conspiracy theories are now going to be created to justify why Amanda Knox will soon to be free then I think the conspiracy theorists need to try a little bit harder.

I've thought this for quite some time now!

I'm tempted to write them a better conspiracy theory than the ones they've been pushing. :p

Though I suppose you might be a bit chuffed, your 'status' improved when they went from thinking you a cameraman in Seattle to at the very least a deck officer on the S.S. Gogerty-Marriott/FOA PR supertanker, if not one of the sinister masterminds of an international global consortium!
 
LondonJohn



Okay so they were not defence witnesses but the defence requested their testimony? Was this request part of the defence teams formal appeal submissions do you know?

What if the defence hadn’t requested their testimony would the court have done so anyway, hope you appreciate my confusion with the nuances of Italian court procedures.


Yes, the appeal submissions argued that Massei's court was negligent in failing to investigate the inmates' stories, and asked that Hellmann's court corrected this negligence.

I've already made a follow-up post on this issue, but if you require further clarification, maybe it's a good idea to think of the court as an additional quasi-police force. In Italy, criminal courts have both the power and the obligation to initiate investigation if such investigation has the possibility in aiding the overall search for the truth. What the defence teams were therefore saying, in essence, was this:

"We (the defence) know of allegations that have been made by two separate groups of inmates which, if true, would have a significant impact upon our clients' cases. We have no idea whether there is any truth or substantiation to either of these allegations, and we have no powers of our own to investigate the claims properly. However, you (the courts) do have the powers of investigation, and you also have the obligation to investigate these claims. Massei's court should have investigated the claims to find out whether or not either one was true, but Massei's court was negligent in failing to do so. We (the defence) therefore request that you (Hellmann's court) investigate these claims properly (by calling the inmates to testify under oath, coupled with other efforts to verify or disprove the claims), so that everyone can find out whether or not either of these claims has any truth to them."

Hope this makes things a little clearer. The inmates were not defence witnesses. The defence requested that the courts use their investigative powers to determine properly whether either story was true/reliable/supportable.
 
Here is another comment about photographs. This time from Skeptical Bystander: "let's say some of the images used can be traced directly to the FOA or Marriott"


Where does Skeptical Bystander think the photos came from? The photos came from the case files. Does anyone honestly dispute that? Does Skeptical Bystander believe that those photos were not already made available to the independent experts, or is she saying that the experts are incompetent and required the help of Charlie/Bruce/Frank?

If conspiracy theories are now going to be created to justify why Amanda Knox will soon to be free then I think the conspiracy theorists need to try a little bit harder.


Ganong also seems to think that there's something sinister or evasive in Conti/Vecchiotti refusing to hand over their presentation DVD to the police. She's clearly too far invested to understand that the police have no right to directly approach court witnesses to demand documentation.

It should be obvious to all and sundry that Conti/Vecchiotti would have lodged a copy of the presentation DVD with the court, and that the correct way for the police to obtain a copy would have been via the court. It was absolutely improper (not to mention potentially intimidatory) for the police to turn up unannounced at Conti's/Vecchiotti's workplaces to demand the DVD. And it was absolutely proper of Conti and Vecchiotti to have refused to hand anything over, and to have called Hellmann for advice. In my opinion, an inability to understand this basic truth is strongly indicative of a blinkered, irrational, poorly-reasoned approach to the case.

Isn't it also strange that the same police force whose severe budgetary constraints apparently meant they couldn't even stretch to a spare videotape or audio cassette to record interviews could somehow afford to send a multi-officer search party to Rome on the hunt for the DVD? :confused: :rolleyes:
 
Something I keep meaning to ask. If there has been a clean up with bleach using a mop, wouldn't the luminol testing have picked up the spots where they had cleaned by reacting with the bleach?

They didn't luminol down the floor until the same time they went for the bra clasp, some 46 days after the discovery of the victim. My research indicated that if you just mop over an area with bleach, it doesn't interfere as much with the luminol test given time. However the stains that light up smear, and it looks 'cloudy'.


During this study it was also noted that the positive interference
by bleach is diminished if the area to be sprayed is left for several
days. Therefore, where possible a delay before spraying with
luminol-peroxide solution can significantly reduce positive interference
by bleach.


However, standing bleach, like that which might pool diluted at the bottom of a shower, can have something sciency that I can't recall this moment happen to it. That's the sort of thing that might get on the feet of someone they could track around and it would leave prints like those at the cottage that could be seen 46 days later.
 
Considering that Amanda herself said that she had carried a knife in her bag for self-defense earlier in North Europe, it is not so pure science fiction.

This is very interesting! I wonder what is the source of your info? Amanda was very clear about it:

DALLA VEDOVA: (...) So I wanted to ask you if it was normal for you to go around with a knife?
AK: No.
DALLA VEDOVA: You never had a knife with you?
AK: No.
DALLA VEDOVA: In your pocket or in your purse?
AK: No.
​

I think you're mistaken here or your sources are misleading. If you were right, it would be a major point in Massei's report, instead of his bizarre invention.
 
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