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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Latest from Pilot: "The silence from the now louder than usual FOA childish cheerleaders about this turn of events is absolutely deafening"

When are these people going to see the truth? It's over! Amanda and Raffaele will be free very soon. What else do we need to say?

I just realized that the reason that I'm now so interested in this appeal is that I know it could be over any time now.

Any hour now we could hear the words that we've waited to hear for years: "The court has ordered that Amanda and Raffaele are to be freed for lack of sufficient evidence."
I don't want to excite the casual reader. That is only what I want to hear. It's also what I think is possible. Unfortunately, another guilty verdict is also possible, but I'm excited about the possibility of good news.
 
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_________________

Bolint,

Well, I wonder just where the real rock was found. We know where it was when first photographed, on the afternoon of November 2nd, as seen here..........

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/hendry6.jpg[/qimg]
Rock, on the floor of Filomena's bedroom, photographed on afternoon of November 2, 2007.

Notice that the rock is mostly in a shopping bag, and the shopping bag ripped. Suggesting that someone had grabbed the bag by its strap handles, and lifted the bag or dragged the bag across the floor, resulting in the rip. The rock just falling into the bag might crumple the bag but not rip it. Before this photograph was taken eight people had been in Filomena's bedroom investigating what appeared to be a petty burglary, and known to have compromised the scene in other ways.

In her trial testimony, Amanda---one of the first in Filomena's bedroom---said she saw no rock. If Amanda is telling the truth, this suggests that when Amanda entered Filomena's bedroom the rock was still fully inside the shopping bag and, later, someone moved the bag, causing it to rip and topple over, exposing the rock, as seen in the photograph.

///


I don't find it inconceivable that the rock as photographed in the bag inder the table is where it actually ended up after being thrown through the window. The crumpling would be a valid observation if the rock had come down on the side of the bag. In fact, looking closely at the sides of the bag where it is torn, you can see some crumpling. This should be easy enough to experimentally demonstrate if it's possible for a falling rock to recreate what is photographed. Invalidating the hypothesis however would be difficult
 
I'm seeing one argument that the appeal is merely lip service, because Knox and Sollecito were de facto found guilty by the court that convicted Rudy Guede, and this cannot be reversed. Therefore it doesn't matter in the slightest what arguments the defence advance, or what new evidence they produce or what old evidence they discredit. The could even find a completely watertight alibi for both defendants for the entire evening and night, but it would be to no avail. Hellman is legally bound by the Guede decision and must convict.

What planet is this guy on?

This is an astonishingly persistent guilter meme, given its self-evident absurdity. The idea seems to be that some kind of res judicata or estoppel principle applies, despite the fact that the cases are entirely separate. As if a court could convict someone not on trial!

Just consider the implications of this: if Guede had not chosen the fast-track trial option, then his case wouldn't have advanced faster than Knox and Sollecito's (all three would probably have been tried together, just as is being done to Knox and Sollecito now), and we wouldn't be in the situation of having prior court rulings on Guede. Therefore, on the guilters' legal theory, by choosing the fast-track option, Guede had the power to prejudice the trial of Knox and Sollecito! Think about that! Is that how the guilters really think the Italian justice system works? Is that the image of it they want to present, after all this time singing its praises? That a defendant could be denied the right to contest the charges against them simply because another defendant (in effect) pleaded guilty? (The fast-track option is the closest Italian analogue of a guilty plea, despite not requiring the defendant to actually admit guilt.)

What would be the point of having a separate trial for Knox and Sollecito, then? If it actually worked like that, then Knox and Sollecito's attorneys should have been presenting their defense during the proceedings against Guede!


The other is that this is all a clever ploy by Hellman to show up the Italian justice system in the best possible light. The defence have been given every advantage, even partisan "neutral" experts, look how fair we are, but then the great Stefanoni's stellar, world-class work is vindicated in the examination, and all stand amazed.

Wow. Where did he think that up?

Hellmann is very clever indeed, since he's not even going to allow Stefanoni to testify. Surely it will only take a few questions from Manuela Comodi to make Conti and Vecchiotti collapse on their own!
 
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It seems that now would also be a good time to reiterate the role of the Italian Supreme Court in major criminal trials, and also the truth behind how different courts are perfectly able to make different (and even contradictory) findings of fact in relation to the same crime.

So, firstly, the Italian Supreme Court automatically reviews all criminal trials where the charges involve serious offences. It does so in order to ensure that the law (and all the judicial procedures) has been correctly applied and followed in the first trial and the appeal trial. Regardless of the outcome of the two trials, both the defence and prosecution teams may make submissions to the Supreme Court alleging misapplication of the law/procedures. But neither the defence nor the prosecution can make submissions to the Supreme Court based on findings of fact.

Therefore, the Supreme Court will look at the previous two trials, together with any specific submissions from the defence or prosecutors, and will rule on whether or not there were any breaches of law/procedure in the trials. If the Supreme Court rules that the trials were properly conducted, it will affirm the decision of the appeal court of assizes, and will confirm the convictions/sentences of the defendants. Note, however, that the Supreme Court does not investigate findings of fact - it presumes that the two lower courts have ultimately reached correct decisions on facts. If the Supreme Court rules that there were errors in the application of law/procedure, it will usually send the case back for a retrial at the appeal court level.

At this point, it's time to state a critical truth: the Supreme Court did not find that Guede acted with accomplices in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Instead, it found that the lower courts were correct (legally and procedurally) to make this finding of fact in the light of the evidence placed before those courts. There's a very important difference.

And that leads on to the second of my initial points. The two lower courts in Guede's case made the ultimate finding of fact that Guede acted in concert with a larger group in the murder. It came to this finding based upon all the evidence and testimony placed before it, and having considered the arguments of the prosecution and defence (and the court's own reasoning, given that this is possible in Italian criminal courts). But here's the important part: this does not mean that other courts investigating the same crime need to agree on the same findings of fact. In reality, the courts in the Knox/Sollecito trials will come to findings of fact purely on the basis of the evidence/testimony/arguments presented in these courts.

So, in fact, Hellmann's court could perfectly legitimately come to a finding of fact that the murder was the work of a sole perpetrator - and it wouldn't necessarily even have to find that this sole perpetrator was Guede (although of course Hellmann's court would not ever explicitly or implicitly state that Guede was not involved, given the abundance of evidence against him*. This stuff about Hellmann's court now being somehow "bound" by the findings of fact in Guede's trials is misleading and ignorant nonsense. And, in any case, the only concern of Hellmann's court is to find whether Knox and/or Sollecito are guilty of participation in the murder, to the exclusion of any doubt based in reason. Technically, therefore, it's immaterial whether one or 100 people participated in the murder** - all that matters is whether it can be proven that Knox and/or Sollecito were participants. And the answer to that is almost certainly a resounding "no".

Lastly, as I and many others have pointed out repeatedly before, there has already been a significant difference in the finding of fact between Guede's trials and Knox's/Sollecito's - that of the time of death. Guede's verdict (affirmed by the Supreme Court, don't forget!) placed the ToD at shortly before 10.30pm, whereas Massei's court put the ToD at around 11.45pm. These are entirely contradictory findings, but both are allowable in the context of judicial process (although of course Massei's finding was totally wrong and unsupportable by the evidence). Interestingly, if Knox and Sollecito were ever ultimately convicted with the ToD at 11.45pm (which won't happen, but supposing that it did), Guede might have some grounds for appeal, since he might be able to show that he was elsewhere by that time. However, he would still be hamstrung by his bloody palm print on the pillow underneath Meredith, so I doubt he'd be granted a retrial anyhow.


* Interestingly, though, if Hellmann's court DID somehow come to the conclusion that an as-yet-unidentified person was the sole perpetrator, then this difference in the finding of fact between Guede's courts and Knox's/Sollecito's courts would give Guede ample grounds for appeal against his own verdicts. In that case, he would almost certainly be granted a retrial. That's all purely hypothetical though, since it won't happen.

** Certainly there would be a potential issue if the evidence showed that the murder could not have been committed by one person working alone. If that were the case, then the issue of who comprised the group (together with Guede) would become far more pertinent. However, in this case, the evidence is totally consistent with one person acting alone. Anyone who tries to argue that this crime could not have been committed by a sole attacker is either ignorant or mendacious.
 
I'm seeing one argument that the appeal is merely lip service, because Knox and Sollecito were de facto found guilty by the court that convicted Rudy Guede, and this cannot be reversed. Therefore it doesn't matter in the slightest what arguments the defence advance, or what new evidence they produce or what old evidence they discredit. The could even find a completely watertight alibi for both defendants for the entire evening and night, but it would be to no avail. Hellman is legally bound by the Guede decision and must convict.

What planet is this guy on?

The other is that this is all a clever ploy by Hellman to show up the Italian justice system in the best possible light. The defence have been given every advantage, even partisan "neutral" experts, look how fair we are, but then the great Stefanoni's stellar, world-class work is vindicated in the examination, and all stand amazed.

Wow. Where did he think that up?

Rolfe.


I can't decide whether all this nonsense "argument" claiming that "Hellmann can't contradict the Supreme Court, which concluded that Meredith was murdered by a group including Guede" is borne of sheer ignorance, wishful thinking, or simple mendacity. It's probably a nasty mixture of all three...
 
It's indeed, nonsense.

If there was a possibility, that Hellmann can't contradict Supreme Court's verdict, then what would be the reason to have an appeal trial for Amanda and Raffaele?

That's silly.
 
I think Aviello might have been to 'show up' the Massei Court, and this one backfired in their face as it suggested this was one instance where Massei ruled against the defence and was absolutely right to do so. In Italy there's the 'inquisitorial' search for the truth motif, thus prosecutors and courts are compelled to hear testimony from basically anyone without regard to much of anything in the way of standards. This is how clowns like the olive-throwing guy and Curatolo end up in court, as they're required by law and tradition to hear them out unless they're certain their testimony will be untrue. Therefore Giancarlo Massei should have allowed Aviello to testify, but did not, and now we see he was right to do so.

Alessi and the other two that actually testified is something completely different and under the same procedures of the Italian Courts is something the defense isn't 'responsible' for, and thus wasn't taking a 'risk.' That had to happen under the Court's auspices, elsewise they were failing in their duty to search for the truth. All three of them corroborated that Guede told them Raffaele and Amanda weren't there, which is meaningful testimony any way you look at it, and required for the court to hear, and the defense couldn't have stopped it even if they wanted to. Keep in mind one of those guys was shrouded because the state uses his testimony in other cases to convict criminals, as authorities do with similar characters in both our countries, thus just because they're behind bars doesn't indicate their testimony is meaningless, nor does it reflect on the defendants who have no choice who Rudy talks to.

Hrm. It appears this innocent post of mine attracted some attention...and misunderstandings. Allow me to clarify in my response:


Amazing!!! An intellectual double standard: So, the likes of Bonjiourno and Vanessa Sollecito aren't going to risk their careers and reputations by staging a witness??? However, we have from these same FOAKers the claim that the prosecution, police and prosecution experts are only too happy to risk their reputations and careers by fabricating and staging evidence? Right here, we have brand new FOAKer double standard construct of convenience arbitrarily assigned to the two sides which equates to: The prosecution would not care about risking their reputations and careers (which is a contradiction in itself, since one of the FOAKer claims these past years is that Mignini has been desperately seeking a prosecution in a hunt for glory and to further his career). The defence and defendants' families would never do anything that would risk their careers and reputations. Classic!

First off, I am not a 'FOAKer,' meaning that I'm not a member of the organization 'Friends of Amanda,' however I don't mind being designated so, being as she seems like an awfully nice person once you hose away all the crap people threw at her going on four years now. Unfortunately until about a month ago I couldn't even pass the 'entrance exam' by divining how to navigate their website, being as I figured since the words were in English and all, I must have already been on the 'English' page, and from there I didn't see anything to click on to get to the other content. I could google for it, I could follow links from others, but the enigma of how to get there from the front page eluded me. Thus I am obviously of inferior cognition relative to such exalted luminaries and can answer only to my understanding of the case and not pretend to have been initiated into the deeper mysteries of the legendary 'Gogerty-Marriott/FOA PR Supertanker.'

In response to the above then, all I can say is what I've noted in the past: they didn't try to frame them, and one of my last lines of resistance to the idea Amanda and Raffaele might actually be innocent is what kept going through my mind as I formally evaluated the 'evidence' against them, notably the bra clasp and knife: 'why didn't they just frame them? I quite simply didn't realize at the time how easy it was for a corrupt prosecutor to manipulate an Italian Court, thus I figured if he actually wanted to ensure their conviction all the way through the Supreme Court he'd have produced 'evidence' that would at least stand scrutiny, not laughable or downright disingenuous 'evidence' any clown like me on a computer could see was bogus.

Therefore I applied the same standard to them I applied to the defense in this instance, I just didn't realize at the time they didn't do so because they didn't have to. There's no standards of evidence in Italy outside the prosecutor's oversight and the ruling of a judge who almost always allows whatever the PM produces. If the prosecution says the footprints were made with blood, despite the fact they tested negative for blood and they were caught trying to conceal that, then in an Italian Court it's just their word against the defense, and no one would attempt to gainsay the integrity of an 'incorruptible' prosecutor, being as that's a jail sentence in Italy, thus the defense can do little more than just dispute it as 'evidence.'

By the by, Vanessa Sollecito has no career or reputation to protect, she was thrown out of the carabinieri two years ago!

As has been posted recently to this thread, she has filed suit against them to be reinstated, thus she may yet be an officer of the Carabinieri in the future. However, even if not, she would still risk jail time as I also noted, and thus were she to attempt to suborn perjury to help save her innocent brother, she'd have done a whole lot better than finding some clown who has been convicted of slander seven or eight times for testimony in court to produce an easily falsifiable story. She was a police officer, she'd do it a whole lot better than that!

The next intellectual double standard. Had Bonjiourno and Vanessa staged the witness, they'd have made sure of the evidence to go with it by planting the knife and keys where Aviello said they were. Before getting to the intellectual double standard, this whole argument is flawed in its very basis. WHAT knife and keys would they have planted? Meredith's keys were missing and all the other sets had been confiscated by the police. Meanwhile, the cottage had had the locks changed and a new set of keys with new tennants living in it. Where the hell were they supposed to get a set of keys that matched the old lock to the cottage to plant in the wall? Where the hell were they to get a knife that matched the victims wounds and was covered in the victim's blood and genetic material? If they couldn't obtain those to plant, then what would have been the point of going to all the trouble of planting keys that didn't match the cottage and a knife that had nothing on it that could be matched to Meredith, in effect, disproving the story of their stooge?

As for the knife, all they needed to do was find a pretty standard knife that would definitely match all the wounds, it was described in Massei, and get ahold of some human blood. The trick here is not to match Meredith's DNA, but see to it no DNA can be found, but the knife would still bear blood traces that could be detected with TMB or another test. It would seem that most guilt proponents ought to know that blood can be detected where DNA is not, being as they regularly pretend that the luminol footprints which tested negative for DNA were still blood, in fact I recall having a conversation on that subject a couple Tuesdays past with someone...

As for the keys I was unaware the lock had been changed, though as I think on it that's a pretty obvious move, however keys can be made from the code itself if you know a locksmith, and a police officer and member of parliament might just have the knowledge and resources to procure a copy. In fact for some locks all a good locksmith needs is a picture of the key. If they couldn't do so, then a key wouldn't have been part of the plan, they'd have come up with something else.

At least if nothing had been found in the wall where he said it was, the idea could be left in the air that perhaps someone had removed them from the wall before the police searched it. That's the obvious illogic out of the way. The double standard: If the defence were to present a stooge with a fake story, they would ensure the evidence was there to back his story up. Yet, for years we've been hearing FOAKer accusations that the police planted and fabricated evidence against the pair. Our argument in response was that if that had been the case, then the police would have made damned sure that there was plenty of Meredith's DNA and blood on the knife blade, instead of a tiny amount that could be labeled contamination by the defence and independent experts. They also would have ensured it was found on Meredith's clothing and in her room. Except in this case, unlike Bonjiourno and Vanessa, the police had access to plenty of the evidence to plant on the blade if they had wanted to. Moreover, the police would have needed it all, since their aim was to build an actual 'case' against the pair. In contrast, Aviello was not put forward to provide an actual counter case, but instead simply to sow confusion.

Actually I agree with all this. However with this caveat: the 'evidence' in this case is still a joke, which is why the independent experts made a mockery of police procedures in this case, not because they were compromised by the FOA. It just so happens, like on so many things, the FOA and IIP analysis was so closely compatible with Conti and Vecchiotti's--just like their report reads much like a revised and extended version of the DNA experts' letter--because IIP and FOA were right about that. There's this quote I've seen numerous times over the course of this debate that seems to apply, though oddly enough I doubt the one usually responsible for it can see the irony:

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Winston Churchill

:cool:

It never ceases to amaze me how the FOAKers will make up one arbitrary set of rules of convenience to apply to the prosecution and a completely different set for the defence. Is that their idea of intellectual honesty?

No, this was just a misunderstanding by someone who equivocated my analysis in with those who may disagree with me on details but not on the innocence of Raffaele and Amanda.

Of course, there is a clear and simple reason for these intellectual gymnastics. The FOAKers need to create a world where any suggestion of wrongdoing by the defence can be dismissed out of hand and any outrageous allegation against the prosecution can be made and immediately accepted and incorporated into dogma. It's about not wanting to see or present the world as it really is, but how you desperately want it to be so that it fits your agenda.

Then why is it that actually works the other way around in this debate?

As a final note on the 'sowing of confusion'. This has been the tactic of both the defendants and their defence since day one of this case. 'Confusion' has been their central means of defence. As Charles Mudede said, the innocent seek clarity as that is what will exonerate them, whilst the guilty seek confusion and as much of it as possible, as clarity is their enemy. This is a basic truth.

Raising reasonable doubt doesn't necessarily amount to 'sowing confusion', especially in this case. Obfuscation has been the tactic of the prosecution from the moment they started in with lies about stories changing, Harry Potter books, blood-soaked bathrooms and a whole litany of attempts to muddy the waters so people couldn't see the truth: The cops arrested three people on mistaken or coincidental information without even having the forensics in, which would reveal that no evidence whatsoever of Amanda, Patrick or Raffaele existed at the scene, but of one entirely different man who's since been tried and convicted through the Supreme Court of Italy.


The case is really that simple when you come down to it.
 
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I see that some people (elsewhere) do not seem to understand how Italian courts have their own powers of investigation, which include the powers to summon and question individuals.

Some people seem to be living within the bubble of the anglo-saxon justice system, where only the prosecution and defence can call people to the stand - and, as such, either the prosecution or the defence "own" each individual who testifies. Now, technically, it's the court which actually calls individuals to testify, but it's the defence or prosecution who supply the court with the list of the individuals that each side wants to call.

In Italy (and most other justice systems with a vestige of the inquisitorial approach), however, there is a third option: the court itself requests the appearance of individuals. And this is what happened in the case of the inmates. The defence didn't request these individuals. The defence requested that the court did its duty, i.e. that the court request these individuals.

So while some people - through either ignorance or a need to "score points", or both - might have thought that they had discovered an internal contradiction in my previous statement that

these inmates were not defence witnesses. They were summoned by the court, at the request of the defence,


there's actually no contradiction at all. The inmates were the court's witnesses, and the defence requested that the court called them. It's really not difficult when you put your mind to it.......
 
Confidence update

stilicho on PMF (Channel 2):


stint7 wrote:
....

Even if they should "win" this Appeal, which any realistic non agenda blinded rational being (even FOA Chief Wilkes) realizes is still at best 50-50 at this stage.

....


Why is their certainty of acquittal so low? Komposto [sic] once calculated it at 60%. I wonder why their confidence is even that low. If they had any confidence whatsoever in the "sciencey" stuff they claim to have uncovered and sent on to the defence teams, they'd be absolutely brimming with 95% to 99% certainty.

First of all, I updated my confidence level to 80% after the Conti-Vecchiotti report (and now it's a bit higher, maybe around 85%, based on certain information about what happened on Monday).

But even more importantly, the above is a non-sequitur. Even when confidence in a scientific result is strong, that does not translate into certainty about whether other humans will arrive at a similar judgement. I am after all 99.9% sure that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, but only 80% to 85% sure that they will be acquitted by the Hellmann court.

And it's not as if one can always be 95% sure of everything involving "science". Depending on the proposition of interest, scientific understanding may support any confidence level between 0% and 100%.

(Of course, stilicho is right to be confused by my ability to process such subtleties, if he was under the impression that I was an irrational "nutjob".)
 
LondonJohn

Firstly, contrary to what is often incorrectly written, these inmates were not defence witnesses. They were summoned by the court, at the request of the defence.

Secondly, the reason why the defence teams requested that the inmates' testimony be heard was that it was possible that one of the stories might be partially or totally true.

The defence teams were never claiming that either of the stories was true.

Okay so they were not defence witnesses but the defence requested their testimony? Was this request part of the defence teams formal appeal submissions do you know?

What if the defence hadn’t requested their testimony would the court have done so anyway, hope you appreciate my confusion with the nuances of Italian court procedures.
 
First of all, I updated my confidence level to 80% after the Conti-Vecchiotti report (and now it's a bit higher, maybe around 85%, based on certain information about what happened on Monday).


My only uncertainty at this point is which one of the hater boards is going to pull its plug first??? I might have to start a hater board dead pool.

When they do it, it might go something like this: I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid. Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana, Illinois on the 12th of January 1992. My instructor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a song. If you'd like to hear it I can sing it for you.
 
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There has been conversation that FOA has somehow influenced the independent experts by feeding them information. This was somehow justified by a photo that Frank had posted on Perugia Shock that was also used by the experts. OMG! Frank must have given that photo to the experts! It's all a conspiracy!

This is complete nonsense. The photo has and always will be part of the case files. Frank did not need to supply it, they already had it. Here is the original photo without Frank's name on it.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/rh215.JPG
 
There has been conversation that FOA has somehow influenced the independent experts by feeding them information. This was somehow justified by a photo that Frank had posted on Perugia Shock that was also used by the experts. OMG! Frank must have given that photo to the experts! It's all a conspiracy!

This is complete nonsense. The photo has and always will be part of the case files. Frank did not need to supply it, they already had it. Here is the original photo without Frank's name on it.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/rh215.JPG


C'mon, Bruce. We know you sold weapons to the Sandinistas to fund your multi-million $$$ PR effort and your successful attempt to buy off Hellmann and the experts.
 
They don't just threaten they do it. No matter how silly, no matter how petty, no matter how incriminating it looks, they sue--or better yet file criminal charges.

Interesting theory about Comodi, she ought to be less qualified in one respect, however she's no doubt dealt often with academics in court, she wouldn't be intimidated. I'm hopeful Hellmann will have to order her 'stifled' again this court session.

Incidentally, Bob, I was just reading the acknowledgments at the end of "Murder in Italy," are you the 'Bob' she gives thanks to there, the one who posted at her blog for two years?

No. I do this without a word of thanks.

I've never seen any of the trial on tv, but I can see from the posts here that Commodi did testify in Massei's court-like-thing about some of the DNA rsults.

There is also considerable testimony on those results from Steff, as written up in the Massei dream-report.

Steff is taking the first amendment for her own good. There's no way up. There's no way out. She would only dig a deeper hole for herself by talking about her ...ahem, work....
 
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After the attempted badgering of the experts in court on Monday, and the idiotic send-the-police-to-Rome-to-intimidate-the-experts stunt they pulled yesterday, I think that Hellmann will be loaded for bear.

Sue 'em. Sue the whole bloody damn lot of them....
 
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Skeptical Bystander has now changed her mind, we had to accept the initial verdict because the judges and jurors were there and heard everything and so and so many judges agreed that the evidence holds up — if they are acquitted though, then it's simply a miscarriage of justice … reversed logic …

Skeptical Bystander; I respect the judicial process, but I also reserve the right to believe that it does not always result in justice. I could cite numerous examples, but what is the point? I hope that this time around, the result is justice for Meredith Kercher.


If innocentisti make that argument, they are conspiracy theorists, but if it doesn't go their way, suddenly it's completely okay to question a verdict …
 
There has been conversation that FOA has somehow influenced the independent experts by feeding them information. This was somehow justified by a photo that Frank had posted on Perugia Shock that was also used by the experts. OMG! Frank must have given that photo to the experts! It's all a conspiracy!

This is complete nonsense. The photo has and always will be part of the case files. Frank did not need to supply it, they already had it. Here is the original photo without Frank's name on it.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/rh215.JPG

Well all that does is prove that you supplied the photo to BOTH Frank and the Independant experts, and we already know that YOU are really a collection of paid PR shills for FoA, so that proves the whole thing is a sham!!!!!!11!!
 
Did FRANK supply the photo to CHARLIE or did CHARLIE give it to FRANK?

Who of these two is the ulitimate master mind? Who sent the photo to CV? Have CV seen the MOP video?

Who is REALLY pulling the strings in FOA OZ ????
 
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