Split Thread Mormons and marriage

[Taarkin]

But in any event, it is entirely irrelevant to this thread. This thread isn't about anything that has anything to do with genuine marriage. We're talking about a foul perversion of the sacred order that God established on which to form families, and stable societies—a perversion which can only undermine true marriage and family, and destabilize society.

It is important in determining whether or not the accusations of immorality are consistent and honest.

The homosexual movement seeks to create fake “families” that by their very nature will be unstable and destructive. Not the same thing at all.

Is this true? If so, how do you know that it is true?

 

[RandFan]

That is simply a flat-out lie.

No, it's not a lie.

In any event, discussion of the specific claims is not relevant to this thread. This thread is about one specific evil. Claiming that other evils also take place is not, in any way, an argument in favor of a different evil.

Hang on, you assert that homosexuality mocks marriage. How can we understand your basis if you won't discuss these other things that are A.) In the Bible and B.) You say mock marriage?

That some people in the commit murder is not an argument in favor of rape.

But if you are inconsistent in your basis why one is immoral and the other isn't then you've got a problem. And that's the problem you have. Inconsistency.

 

[RandFan]

But in any event, it is entirely irrelevant to this thread.

You are the one when shown a list of marriage traditions from the Bible painted them in derogatory terms. It's relevant because it appears that you are A.) Special pleading and B.) Have no basis to make your claim.

This thread isn't about anything that has anything to do with genuine marriage.

What is genuine marriage. In the list provided all were traditions sanctioned by god. How are those not "genuine marriage"?

We're talking about a foul perversion of the sacred order that God established on which to form families, and stable societies—a perversion which can only undermine true marriage and family, and destabilize society.

Evidence? Assertion is not argument nor is it evidence.
If there is any relevance it is this: People like my great-great-grandfather had stable, viable families, formed around polygamous marriages. It worked well enough until government interfered, and destroyed many of these families.

The homosexual movement seeks to create fake “families” that by their very nature will be unstable and destructive. Not the same thing at all.

Evidence? If someone came on this forum and declared that Mormon families are "fake families" and are by their very nature unstable and destructive would you not demand evidence for their claim? Do you have evidence for your claim?

 

[bikerdruid]

I

In biblical times, polygamy was considered acceptable...........

...........................................................

The homosexual movement seeks to create fake “families” that by their very nature will be unstable and destructive. Not the same thing at all.

in biblical times, as commanded in leviticus, people improperly dressed in the tabernacle,disobedient children, witches and queers were to be killed.

fake families, are those the ones with two loving parents? why do they have to be of mixed gender?
owhat about single parent families? or parents who constantly fight in front of their children?
are those superior?

the success rate of straight marriages is abominable.

you choose to ignore my earlier post about canada's first same sex married couple celebrating their tenth anniversary.

 

[Arcade22]

The homosexual movement seeks to create fake “families” that by their very nature will be unstable and destructive.

Please elaborate on and prove that a family with same-sex parents is 'unstable and destructive'.

 

[catsmate]

That is simply a flat-out lie.

I'm sorry for your and your beliefs but it is not. You maybe unaware of, or unwilling to accept, practices sanctioned by the Mormon church but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

The vast majority of the specific points you mention are not, and have never been, considered acceptable within the Mormon church. You appear to be confusing the genuine Mormon church with a few of the more bizarre offshoots thereof.

Really? So Joseph Smith's acceptance of marriage between siblings (e.g. John and Maria Bernhisel) didn't happen? Fanny Stenhouse didn't say:

It would be quite impossible, with any regard to propriety, to relate all the horrible results of this disgraceful system.... Marriages have been contracted between the nearest of relatives; and old men tottering on the brink of the grave have been united to little girls scarcely in their teens; while unnatural alliances of every description, which in any other community would be regarded with disgust and abhorrence, are here entered into in the name of God

back in 1875?

What about Smith threatening young women with "eternal damnation" if they refused to marry him? Or Brigham Young threatening to ruin Ann Eliza Young's brother if she didn't marry him? (Wife no 19).

What about George Smith's study of marriage within the early LDS movement, indicating 1.3% of brides were 13, 8.5% of brides were 14 and only 42% were 17 and over? Or Todd Compton's documentation of Joseph Smith's multiple marriages to girls of 13 or 14? Or Stanly Hirshon? Who documented cases of girls aged 10 and 11 being married to men in their sixties?

Given the LDS's propensity for editing its own history (and scriptures) when it feels this necessary you may have missed these parts.

Even today the Mormon church considers women to be subject to their husbands, though it's downplaying the older doctrines somewhat but

"[a] woman's primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband"

Then there's the support the 'mainstream' LDS church gives to its own fundies, who are open about continuing such church practices such as polygamy, racism, incest et cetera.

In any event, discussion of the specific claims is not relevant to this thread. This thread is about one specific evil. Claiming that other evils also take place is not, in any way, an argument in favor of a different evil.

Strawman. I'm not claiming some equivalence of evils, I'm stating that the church whose moral authority you cite for your opinions on same-sex marriage is guilty of practices (historically and currently) that even you admit are equally wrong. Yet that church continues to evade, deny and whitewash its past while opposing marriage between consenting adults, just because they are of the same gender.

IThat some people in the commit murder is not an argument in favor of rape. That some people commit rape is not an argument in favor of theft. That some people commit theft is not an argument in favor of murder.

Another strawman.


One last question: if (when) the LDS comes out and says that same-sex marriages are acceptable will this change your opinion? It's not like this would be a greater doctrinal change than some they've made.

 

[arthwollipot]

...We're talking about a foul perversion of the sacred order that God established on which to form families, and stable societies—a perversion which can only undermine true marriage and family, and destabilize society.

I happen to think that your attitude is a foul perversion of a religion that ought to be promoting peace, tolerance and love. But regardless.

I notice you haven't answered my question about what makes something immoral. Would you mind?

 

[bikerdruid]

I'm sorry for your and your beliefs but it is not. You maybe unaware of, or unwilling to accept, practices sanctioned by the Mormon church but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

there is, to this day, a mormon community in bountiful, british columbia, where polygamy,marriage of underage girls to elderly men, and jealousy and mistreatment of young men, has received a lot of press.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bountiful,_British_Columbia
any mormon who decries the immorality of same sex marriage, should look to their own culture and the atrocities that are part of their faith.

 

[Giordano]

I don't deny that polygamy was practiced in the church. My great-great grandfather was a polygamist, at the time the U.S. decide to outlaw it. He was forced to choose to disown three of his wives, and the vast majority of his children, or else go to jail. He chose jail.

In biblical times, polygamy was considered acceptable; and in fact, it appears to be difficult to nail down when and how it ceased to be. It certainly fist the general model of marriage (a man united to a woman as the basis of a family), and differs from modern understandings of marriage only in that a man was allowed to enter into more than one at a time.

But in any event, it is entirely irrelevant to this thread. This thread isn't about anything that has anything to do with genuine marriage. We're talking about a foul perversion of the sacred order that God established on which to form families, and stable societies—a perversion which can only undermine true marriage and family, and destabilize society.

If there is any relevance it is this: People like my great-great-grandfather had stable, viable families, formed around polygamous marriages. It worked well enough until government interfered, and destroyed many of these families.

The homosexual movement seeks to create fake “families” that by their very nature will be unstable and destructive. Not the same thing at all.

Dear Bob B,
The point, of course, is that you are seeking to impose your views of what is sacred and what is perverse on society as a whole. I'm sure you honestly believe your views are the only true ones, based on your own understanding of God. But other people (and other religions) have quite different views, and (here is the tough part to accept), these other people are equally certain that their views are correct and represent the God-given natural laws of the Universe! So you can't simply pull out God as your trump card and take the trick- everyone at the table has an equally valuable card.

I'll leave it to others to explain that any two consenting adults loving one another enough to commit to a permanent relationship is a good thing for society- it sure seems a plus from my perspective. In any case, believe it or not, I predict that in ten years you will wonder why the issue created such a fuss. Maybe you will even be attending a gay wedding of a relative or a friend- who knows?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

there is, to this day, a mormon community in bountiful, british columbia, where polygamy,marriage of underage girls to elderly men, and jealousy and mistreatment of young men, has received a lot of press.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bountiful,_British_Columbia
any mormon who decries the immorality of same sex marriage, should look to their own culture and the atrocities that are part of their faith.

Those are not Mormons, and they have very little to do with genuine Mormons. They are no more representative of Mormonism than David Koresh and his gang were representative of the Seventh Day Adventists.

 

[bikerdruid]

Those are not Mormons, and they have very little to do with genuine Mormons. They are no more representative of Mormonism than David Koresh and his gang were representative of the Seventh Day Adventists.

of course.
and anders brevik is not a true christian.
and abortion doctor killers are not true christians.
and there are no true scotsmen.

so you really seem to hate queers.
how does what we do affect you in any real way?

 

[bikerdruid]

p.s.
i am always told in other threads, that i cannot say that polpot and stalin were not real communists.
i believe that you have thrown them in my face in other threads.
what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
you cannot say that the folks in bountiful. b.c. are not real mormons.

 

[RandFan]

Those are not Mormons, and they have very little to do with genuine Mormons. They are no more representative of Mormonism than David Koresh and his gang were representative of the Seventh Day Adventists.

But I think they are significant for the following reasons.

They exist in large part because Mormonism elevated polygamy to such a high status.

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. --Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, pg. 269.

Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further, and say that this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord had given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned. --Brigham Young, Deseret News, November 14, 1855.

God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then... a brother or sister say, 'I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy! Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.'… The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord... --Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 224-225.

There is much more. A significant (but not exhaustive) list of quotes by various Mormon prophets on the importance of Polygamy that is in direct contradiction to current church policies can be found at the following link:
Polygamy and Eternal Marriage

 

[Bob Blaylock]

p.s.
i am always told in other threads, that i cannot say that polpot and stalin were not real communists.
i believe that you have thrown them in my face in other threads.
what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
you cannot say that the folks in bountiful. b.c. are not real mormons.

I have no memory of making any recent mention of Pol Pot nor Stalin, nor of anyone else's mention of them. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.


But yes, I can say that the people you are mentioning are not real Mormons. Mormons are members of the organization that is formally called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. The people of whom you speak are not members of this organization. They have nothing to do with us, and their conduct has nothing to do with our faith.

 

[RandFan]

...their conduct has nothing to do with our faith.

Demonstrably false. They exist and their conduct exists because of your faith. Because Mormon prophets for many decades preached it's importance and warned followers that rejecting polygamy would damn them.

It's easy to see why there are some offshoots of Mormonism when the Church shifted its policy to such a degree. After prophets had said for generations that salvation requires the practice of polygamy, to the members who had believed those prophets, this was tantamount to damnation.

That simply can't be reasonably reconciled as far as I can tell.

 

[Morrigan]

Bob, why is homosexuality immoral? And what is a "fake family"?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Demonstrably false. They exist and their conduct exists because of your faith.

Only by the same logic that you could claim that all the Orthodox and Protestant sects exist because of the Catholic church. This doesn't make them Catholics. The Catholic church isn't in any way responsible for the policies or practices of Protestant or Orthodox churches. The Seventh Day Adventists are not responsible for David Koresh and his gang.

And we Mormons are not responsible for the crazy sects that have split off from us either.

It is blatantly, willfully dishonest to criticize us based on anything that these offshoots practice, and we do not.

 

[arthwollipot]

And we Mormons are not responsible for the crazy sects that have split off from us either.

It is blatantly, willfully dishonest to criticize us based on anything that these offshoots practice, and we do not.

Are you responsible for the crazy antics that your founders got up to? Brigham Young is documented to have had 55 wives.

And you still haven't answered my other question. It's okay - if you don't want to answer it for whatever reason, just say so and I'll back off.

 

[RandFan]

Only by the same logic that you could claim that all the Orthodox and Protestant sects exist because of the Catholic church.

Not quite the same but yes. I agree. And I do.

This doesn't make them Catholics.

Moving the goal posts. That's not the subject in question. YOU said:

...their conduct has nothing to do with our faith.

Conduct Bob. We are talking about "conduct".

The Catholic church isn't in any way responsible for the policies or practices of Protestant or Orthodox churches.

Setting aside Orthodox churches for the moment, as they claim to supersede Catholicism, I very much think that the Catholic Church does bear some responsibility in that they made absolute claims about many things that the Protestant Churches adopted.

And we Mormons are not responsible for the crazy sects that have split off from us either.

Are the quotes I provided correct or not?

It is blatantly, willfully dishonest to criticize us based on anything that these offshoots practice, and we do not.

Did you? Did the Mormons invent the theological underpinnings that girds these denominations? Yes or no?

 

[ponderingturtle]

What is the big deal? So Mormons are consistently behind the times on civil rights issues, they receive revelations when their beliefs become sufficiently politically inconvenient, so I figure in 30 years or so they will all change their tune on gay marriage.

I mean they only accepted black people as being equal in 1979 so we can't expect them to not be trailing on civil rights.