Is Primerica a scam?

[icerat]

Homeopathy is cleared by the governement. It's a scam.

explicitly? where?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

That's not a definition, that's wikipedia.

One of these days I'll dive in to that article, but I've had experience with the two major authors of it many times. It's an exhausting process.

I certainly hope they should give you a hard time. It is not the place of an Amway shill to write the definition of MLM for the world to use.

 

[icerat]

I certainly hope they should give you a hard time. It is not the place of an Amway shill to write the definition of MLM for the world to use.

(1) I'm not an Amway shill, thanks for remembering to adhere to Rule 0 and Rule 12
(2) There's a little thing called reliable sources needed on wikipedia. Some blokes website doesn't cut it

 

[icerat]

Yeah, right. There is more than plenty of research debunking this crap. Do your own research.

Ok, let's just stick with the first one then, since I agree with you on the rest.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Ok, let's just stick with the first one then, since I agree with you on the rest.

Okay,

Amway is a legal scam because they invariably give you a long presentation before even mentioning their name, then give you unrealistic figures on how much you are going to make. The products are ordinary at best and are an excuse for the pyramid scheme.

They tell you that if you don’t succeed in making tons of money is because you don’t work hard enough. You get no business training, other than motivational woo.

The people who make money in Amway are the ones who run the seminars and sell the motivational crap. This is not what you are told throughout your “career”. Very, very few people make a profit at all; let alone profit that justifies the use of your time and personal resources.

I understand you want me to find you evidence, but again, it’s all over the place. You know it, I know it, so cut the crap. Amway certainly, without a doubt, is an organization that misrepresents their model and where very few make money.

The main argument I heard personally was that every company is a pyramid, where the top cheese makes millions while the peons make next to nothing. But there is such a thing as minimum wage, and when you work for a non-scam company, you get paid for what you do.

This is also all I'm going to say about Amway, because it is off topic.

 

[Joecool]

The main argument I heard personally was that every company is a pyramid, where the top cheese makes millions while the peons make next to nothing. But there is such a thing as minimum wage, and when you work for a non-scam company, you get paid for what you do.

This is also all I'm going to say about Amway, because it is off topic.

It's hard to talk about business and scam, and not have Amway come up.

 

[icerat]

Okay,

Amway is a legal scam because they invariably give you a long presentation before even mentioning their name,

Who is this, Amway or some people who promote Amway?

The presentation I have mentions Amway on the third of fifteen slides.

then give you unrealistic figures on how much you are going to make.

Who is this, Amway or some people who promote Amway?

In the US, by law they give the average (which is a misleading figure since it's not a normal distribution) and this is only $115/mth. How is that unrealistic? Most presentations I've seen give a range of examples.

The products are ordinary at best and are an excuse for the pyramid scheme.

In my experience the products are some of the best I've used and they've won many independent awards.

Which ones have you tried?

They tell you that if you don’t succeed in making tons of money is because you don’t work hard enough. You get no business training, other than motivational woo.

Whos is this "they", Amway or some people who promote Amway?

What "motivational woo" are you talking about? When I was active in Amway I received training on all sorts of things, from sales (eg Frank Betger's book How I raised myself from failure to success in selling) to people skills (eg Dale Carnegie, Les Giblin) to business accounting (eg IBO101), to use of body language (Allan Pease) not to mention direct leadership training from some of the world's best (eg John Maxwell)

The people who make money in Amway are the ones who run the seminars and sell the motivational crap. This is not what you are told throughout your “career”.

Prospect are told that people make money selling BSM material in various promotional literature and it's also highlighted in the contract.

Very, very few people make a profit at all; let alone profit that justifies the use of your time and personal resources.

Yes, very few people make a profit, that's primarily because very few people do anything at all. Half who register never even order anything after registering (source Team vs Quixtar). Only 6% even try to sell products (source: BERR vs Amway).

Do you expect those people should be making money?

I understand you want me to find you evidence, but again, it’s all over the place. You know it, I know it, so cut the crap.

You mean a handful of blogs by the likes of Joecool (who has run at least 4 anti-amway blogs I know). How about reliable, expert sources?

Amway certainly, without a doubt, is an organization that misrepresents their model and where very few make money.

Yet the head of one of the world's most respected business schools spent a few years researching the company to write a book and said "Amway Corporation has succeeded for more than three decades in a highly regulated industry, because it is a proper, ethical, and honourable addition to the retail marketplace"

The main argument I heard personally was that every company is a pyramid, where the top cheese makes millions while the peons make next to nothing. But there is such a thing as minimum wage, and when you work for a non-scam company, you get paid for what you do.

But what if you don't work at all, like most people who join Amway? Or what if you work 4 hours or less a week, like half of all people who are involved enough in direct selling that they'll answer a survey about it!

This is also all I'm going to say about Amway, because it is off topic.

I suspect not entirely, since the same claims are probably made about Primerica. I haven't researched the company so don't know how much is true or not. I do know that the vast majority of what I heard about Amway wasn't actually true when I went and researched it.

 

[Joecool]

:
Amway is a legal scam because they invariably give you a long presentation before even mentioning their name,

:
then give you unrealistic figures on how much you are going to make.

Who is this, Amway or some people who promote Amway?

Amway has a symibotic relationship with the tools companies. Amway produces the products, the tools companies recruit the IBOs, teach them to do 100 PV and teach IBOs that failure is thrie own fault.

The tools companies are not hindered by Amway. Amway consents to tool abuse by inaction.

See how easy that is to explain?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Okay,



Who is this, Amway or some people who promote Amway?

The presentation I have mentions Amway on the third of fifteen slides.



Who is this, Amway or some people who promote Amway?

In the US, by law they give the average (which is a misleading figure since it's not a normal distribution) and this is only $115/mth. How is that unrealistic? Most presentations I've seen give a range of examples.



In my experience the products are some of the best I've used and they've won many independent awards.

Which ones have you tried?



Whos is this "they", Amway or some people who promote Amway?

What "motivational woo" are you talking about? When I was active in Amway I received training on all sorts of things, from sales (eg Frank Betger's book How I raised myself from failure to success in selling) to people skills (eg Dale Carnegie, Les Giblin) to business accounting (eg IBO101), to use of body language (Allan Pease) not to mention direct leadership training from some of the world's best (eg John Maxwell)



Prospect are told that people make money selling BSM material in various promotional literature and it's also highlighted in the contract.



Yes, very few people make a profit, that's primarily because very few people do anything at all. Half who register never even order anything after registering (source Team vs Quixtar). Only 6% even try to sell products (source: BERR vs Amway).

Do you expect those people should be making money?



You mean a handful of blogs by the likes of Joecool (who has run at least 4 anti-amway blogs I know). How about reliable, expert sources?



Yet the head of one of the world's most respected business schools spent a few years researching the company to write a book and said "Amway Corporation has succeeded for more than three decades in a highly regulated industry, because it is a proper, ethical, and honourable addition to the retail marketplace"



But what if you don't work at all, like most people who join Amway? Or what if you work 4 hours or less a week, like half of all people who are involved enough in direct selling that they'll answer a survey about it!



I suspect not entirely, since the same claims are probably made about Primerica. I haven't researched the company so don't know how much is true or not. I do know that the vast majority of what I heard about Amway wasn't actually true when I went and researched it.

I am not getting into a long argument about this. I have no time for this garbage. I don't know Joe Cool, but I'll take Bob Carroll's opinion over yours any day. Okaybye.

 

[icerat]

I am not getting into a long argument about this. I have no time for this garbage. I don't know Joe Cool, but I'll take Bob Carroll's opinion over yours any day. Okaybye.

Right. Bob Carroll doesn't even get out of the first paragraph without being wrong about the model. He's a philosopher. Are you in the habit of expecting philosophers to be experts in business?

But please, don't take my opinion. I've already provided the opinions of the FTC and several highly regarded academics. Go read them yourself.

 

[Joecool]

Right. Bob Carroll doesn't even get out of the first paragraph without being wrong about the model. He's a philosopher. Are you in the habit of expecting philosophers to be experts in business?

But please, don't take my opinion. I've already provided the opinions of the FTC and several highly regarded academics. Go read them yourself.

The FTC didn't say Amway was a good business opportunity. More tape speak from a tooled up cultist.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Amway in China is yet another MLM variation of "How To Work Your Magic Within The Government Framework".

Amway was shut down with all Direct Marketers. They got around it by opening stores. And when the consumer went to those stores, they were assigned to a downstream's account and any purchases wound up in the sales of that particular group. YOU COULD NOT BUY OVER THE COUNTER, although they made it appear that you were doing so.

These stores were opened by Amway. Not Tools distributors, not Emerald Pin holders. The company.

Today, they've devised a way to work around the ban on direct sales, and particularly the ban on an upstream making money off the downstream components' work. You can become an employee of Amway (apparently with no salary - just the commissions on your downstreams and own sales), or you can become a private contractor. Both, according to Amway themselves, allow you to make the previously unmakeable - profits on the work of your downstream.

In 2004 they had already "hired" 130,000 direct marketers in this fashion. That number is likely triple, now. Chiina, with its traditional reliance on friend and family connections and relationships to do business is ideal for them.

So that's the story of the Amway "retail stores". Sounds like they just found themselves a legal finesse around the law.

 

[icerat]

Amway in China is yet another MLM variation of "How To Work Your Magic Within The Government Framework".

Amway was shut down with all Direct Marketers. They got around it by opening stores. And when the consumer went to those stores, they were assigned to a downstream's account and any purchases wound up in the sales of that particular group. YOU COULD NOT BUY OVER THE COUNTER, although they made it appear that you were doing so.

Yes you could, and you still can. You can also buy over the counter in, for example, the Amway London Flagship store.

Just because it might be allocated to someone's volume doesn't change this. Heck, you're free to go order from amway.com. No IBO necessary. The volume will get allocated to someone though.

Today, they've devised a way to work around the ban on direct sales, and particularly the ban on an upstream making money off the downstream components' work.

The ban on direct sales in China was lifted many years ago.

You can become an employee of Amway (apparently with no salary - just the commissions on your downstreams and own sales), or you can become a private contractor. Both, according to Amway themselves, allow you to make the previously unmakeable - profits on the work of your downstream.

Different countries have different rules and regulations. Amway is doing just fine in China working within theirs.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Yes you could, and you still can. You can also buy over the counter in, for example, the Amway London Flagship store.

London? As in London, Jiangsu Province? London, Guangdong Province? Which London? There are so many in CHINA, after all.

Just because it might be allocated to someone's volume doesn't change this. Heck, you're free to go order from amway.com. No IBO necessary. The volume will get allocated to someone though.

So it's MLM disguised as a store? Sort of what I said, I believe.

The ban on direct sales in China was lifted many years ago.

I was wondering what all those pink Cadillacs were doing on the road. (Seriously - I hadn't actually known that. I'm in REAL business, so don't get too keep up with the hucksters.)

Different countries have different rules and regulations. Amway is doing just fine in China working within theirs.

Not "just fine". They're doing great. I think I mentioned before that it's almost like they stumbed upon their own little Utopia. China and Amway are a marriage made in heaven - from the Amway p.o.v.

 

[Joecool]

But please, don't take my opinion. I've already provided the opinions of the FTC and several highly regarded academics. Go read them yourself.

Is this the same FTC that fined Amway for false income claims?