Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

[Ivan Kminek]

I learned to make several kindsof thermite while I was in the Air Force. One form of cast thermite uses linseed oil as an inhibitor so that it can be placed against a vertical surface. It leaves an unburned shell after the reaction is complete.

THermite that contains linseed oil or any of its polymers has, in effect, become a fire-proof paint.

You mean that any thermitic mixture containing linseed oil is not usable as a real thermite? Than, any red chip from WTC containing this oil is also not a thermite, good (e.g.) for cutting of steel (?) I still do not know why you used something basically thermitic for fire-proofing, but it does not matter since this debate is of course about paints, not thermites)

 

[leftysergeant]

I still do not know why you used something basically thermitic for fire-proofing, but it does not matter since this debate is of course about paints, not thermites)

I was suggesting that any substance containing a polymer or oil is not likely to be thermitic. It would appear that the polymers would separate the reactants, thus preventing any bonding. It looked to me as though in actual nanno-thermite, the surface of one polymer slab is coated with the aluminum and another with the FeO2 and the two are placed reactant side to reactant side. In paint, they are homogenized.

Now we should consider that, once paint is applied to a surface, it does not always stay homogenized. I have noticed that when painting scale plastic models, a thick coat of paint will often change color somewhat as the paint cures. If you cut through a thick layer of a single paint, it will have a stratified appearance. The pigments will sometimes sort themselves out. Sometimes even the vehicle (usually an oil-based liquid,) will form a layer over or under the bulk of the pigments. Thus, I have to wonder if we are seeing this in the red/grey chips.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

TG–DSC analysis applied to contemporary oil paints... and etc.

Since the linseed oil (together with alkyd) was used in the binder of this red Tnemec primer, I would like to know more about its thermal behaviour. I have just found this recent paper: "TG–DSC analysis applied to contemporary oil paints, J Therm Anal Calorim (2011) 104:541–546", I have a full access to this using this link http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/deta...a-af22-fe71c597abea@sessionmgr10&vid=7&hid=24. Authors compare thermal behaviour of fresh and aged paints based on seed oils. Generally, this behaviour is quite complex and is somehow depending on added pigments, but with one-year aged paints, exotherms peaking at cca 420 - 460 degrees C were observed. I.e. at temperatures when Harrit chips (a) to (d) gave those exotherms - but I should add that exotherms in the cited paper do not look very sharp.
Just for your fun, I am casting here some highly unsupported hypotheses:
1) Chips (a) to (d) were still particles of this Tmenec red primer, but, just by chance, they do no to contain Zn and Cr compounds. They are anyway very tiny and who knows that the used primer was always mixed properly? (Well, it does not sound to be very probable
2) During painting job in WTC, somebody tried "cleverly" to save some money and did not add comparatively expensive chromium and zinc components to some big batches of the Tnemec paint. (Well, I think that it might be impossible in the USA (?), but here, in Czech Republic... it is nothing unimaginable
3) As you pointed out, there were corrugated steel (?) plates in all WTC floors, with a very, very large total area. They could by painted with some cheaper anti-corrosive paint containing only Fe, Al and Si, because of a large area and because there were applied in space with no high danger of corrosion. Perhaps this paint was of so bad quality that it was almost completely removed from these plates during collapses. (This could explain the alleged high concentration of the red chips.) Have you seen any pictures of these plates in the debris? Or were they completely destroyed to some small pieces?
Sorry to bother you with my rather twisted thinking

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I was suggesting that any substance containing a polymer or oil is not likely to be thermitic. It would appear that the polymers would separate the reactants, thus preventing any bonding. It looked to me as though in actual nanno-thermite, the surface of one polymer slab is coated with the aluminum and another with the FeO2 and the two are placed reactant side to reactant side. In paint, they are homogenized.

Now we should consider that, once paint is applied to a surface, it does not always stay homogenized. I have noticed that when painting scale plastic models, a thick coat of paint will often change color somewhat as the paint cures. If you cut through a thick layer of a single paint, it will have a stratified appearance. The pigments will sometimes sort themselves out. Sometimes even the vehicle (usually an oil-based liquid,) will form a layer over or under the bulk of the pigments. Thus, I have to wonder if we are seeing this in the red/grey chips.

Thanks a lot, I have just nominated this your contribution)

 

[Sunstealer]

Just for your fun, I am casting here some highly unsupported hypotheses:
1) Chips (a) to (d) were still particles of this Tmenec red primer, but, just by chance, they do no to contain Zn and Cr compounds. They are anyway very tiny and who knows that the used primer was always mixed properly? (Well, it does not sound to be very probable
2) During painting job in WTC, somebody tried "cleverly" to save some money and did not add comparatively expensive chromium and zinc components to some big batches of the Tnemec paint. (Well, I think that it might be impossible in the USA (?), but here, in Czech Republic... it is nothing unimaginable
3) As you pointed out, there were corrugated steel (?) plates in all WTC floors, with a very, very large total area. They could by painted with some cheaper anti-corrosive paint containing only Fe, Al and Si, because of a large area and because there were applied in space with no high danger of corrosion.

1) No, that's not possible.

2) Unlikely.

3) More likely.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I think (but I cannot be sure) that it is not very probable that all steel elements of WTC were painted by the same primer.
But concerning this particular red Tnemec, I have such a bold proposal: It should not be so difficult (for US people) to collect some samples of this paint from some monument or museum or deposit or so. Since I am working in a quite well equipped polymer institute, we can try to analyze these samples somehow. E.g. we can try to separate their components and look what particles are released etc. But to be honest, I have not discussed this proposal with my colleagues yet) Anyway, we can be regarded as a quite independent research group

 

[leftysergeant]

We have some FDNY people here somewhere. Maybe they could talk to somebody at the Hangar 15(?) site or maybe someone in the command structure of FDNY to get a chip or two from some discrete location. Seems they would have an interest in putting a needle in Jones' balloon.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

To be honest, I have no idea about paint jobs in WTC. What do you think about the following picture:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/photoalbum/10/WTCdesign.jpg ? It seems that those corrugated floor desks were not (red-)painted at all before they were placed into their positions (contrary e.g. to the already red-painted perimeter columns and trusses)... But they could be painted later with something else (on both sides? sounds strange). WTC Towers were not as old as Babylonian Towers, their construction should be documented somewhere. NIST report is not extremely helpful in this regard, anyway I should know more about all this great paint job before thinking about some real research of genuine WTC paint. I am a newcomer)

 

[Oystein]

To be honest, I have no idea about paint jobs in WTC. What do you think about the following picture:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/photoalbum/10/WTCdesign.jpg ? It seems that those corrugated floor desks were not (red-)painted at all before they were placed into their positions (contrary e.g. to the already red-painted perimeter columns and trusses)... But they could be painted later with something else (on both sides? sounds strange). WTC Towers were not as old as Babylonian Towers, their construction should be documented somewhere. NIST report is not extremely helpful in this regard, anyway I should know more about all this great paint job before thinking about some real research of genuine WTC paint. I am a newcomer)

Yep, metal decks look galvanized on top. Seems like they are decking two floors simulataneously here. So if there was a paint job after decking the floor, it could/would have been done well after they were put in place. We should consider the decks were, in fact, not painted, until someone finds evidence that they were.

 

[leftysergeant]

The trusses look painted.

 

[Animal]

To be honest, I have no idea about paint jobs in WTC. What do you think about the following picture:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/photoalbum/10/WTCdesign.jpg ? It seems that those corrugated floor desks were not (red-)painted at all before they were placed into their positions (contrary e.g. to the already red-painted perimeter columns and trusses)... But they could be painted later with something else (on both sides? sounds strange). WTC Towers were not as old as Babylonian Towers, their construction should be documented somewhere. NIST report is not extremely helpful in this regard, anyway I should know more about all this great paint job before thinking about some real research of genuine WTC paint. I am a newcomer)

Typical construction - metal decking would just me galvanized. Structural steel may or may not be galvanized and red primer. Sometimes the steel is left unprimed, but that is not the norm. It would be a very unusual for any structural material to be painted once in place.......unless it is intended to be exposed.

 

[Oystein]

Thanks, lefty and Animal.

I would have expected the trusses to be primed.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

It is not easy to find anything relevant about these corrugated decks in WTC1 and WTC2, e.g. because most of the available photos are black and white and we are looking for things red in color. Perhaps NIST report contains some direct info about their corrosion protection but I have not been able to find it yet. Anyway, let's suppose that NIST knows well how the floor elements were painted/protected. Than, these two NIST sites about the construction and testing of floor assemblies in NIST labs can give us a quite reliable hint that floor decks were really not red-painted (and were only galvanized): http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6BDraft.pdf (e.g. Fig 4-14 to 4-19) and http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/PublicBriefingULTestsGross082504.pdf Fig. "Primer Paint and Installation of. Instrumentation". One of the reasons can be seen in the fact that sprayed fireproofing has a distinctly better adhesion to the unpainted steel, which is of special importance when fireproofing large horizontal areas from bottom (http://www.destefanoassociates.com/pdfs/technical/200511_practicle_solutions_fire_protection.pdf). Consequently, those corrugated decks could not be a source of any red material (except some rust).
Again, it is noted here http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR 1-6A.pdf , paragraph 7.2.1, that Series 10 Tnemec Primer (99 Red) was applied to perimeter columns. (Only to them?) In Fig. A-64, there is a copy of a letter from Pacific Car and Foundry Company, which was responsible for this particular paint job. Perhaps I repeat some things you know already very well, sorry for this.

 

[Oystein]

...
Perhaps I repeat some things you know already very well, sorry for this.

Not at all! Thanks!

I currently don't have a mind to concentrate and work on any well defined issue here, but I am following, reading and taking note.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

As a newcomer, I again put more questions than useful info in this contribution. Well, floor corrugated decks were not red-painted, but only galvanized. But again, what happened to them during collapses? It seems that (almost) no big parts of them were found in the debris (see e.g. http://letsrollforums.com/hunt-floor-pans-t25015p5.html). They were only 0.7 mm thick (22-gauge), so they could be probably destroyed to very small pieces and simultaneously oxidized to the rust in that inferno (?). Are there some estimations/evaluations how high were temperatures in the falling debris, caused e.g. by friction phenomenons etc.?

 

[bill smith]

As a newcomer, I again put more questions than useful info in this contribution. Well, floor corrugated decks were not red-painted, but only galvanized. But again, what happened to them during collapses? It seems that (almost) no big parts of them were found in the debris (see e.g. http://letsrollforums.com/hunt-floor-pans-t25015p5.html). They were only 0.7 mm thick (22-gauge), so they could be probably destroyed to very small pieces and simultaneously oxidized to the rust in that inferno (?). Are there some estimations/evaluations how high were temperatures in the falling debris, caused e.g. by friction phenomenons etc.?

I don't see any metal decking in the rubble either. And the one-acre concrete floors all had wire mesh reinforcing. There should ber at least 100 acres (approximately 40,000 square meters) of that matting in the rubble of each Tower.

If you have ever seen rubble mixed with chickenwire you will know how highly visible and ubiquitous it is. Yet we see little or none of this matting in the rubble of the WTC. Where can it be gone ? Very little decking or floorpans either as you noted.

 

[Reactor drone]

Typical construction - metal decking would just me galvanized. Structural steel may or may not be galvanized and red primer. Sometimes the steel is left unprimed, but that is not the norm. It would be a very unusual for any structural material to be painted once in place.......unless it is intended to be exposed.

There'll always be some on site touch ups to cover welds and bolts but I can't see them painting the floor pans.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

I don't see any metal decking in the rubble either. And the one-acre concrete floors all had wire mesh reinforcing. There should ber at least 100 acres (approximately 40,000 square meters) of that matting in the rubble of each Tower.

If you have ever seen rubble mixed with chickenwire you will know how highly visible and ubiquitous it is. Yet we see little or none of this matting in the rubble of the WTC. Where can it be gone ? Very little decking or floorpans either as you noted.

I have not yet seen enough photos of the debris to be sure that there is no wire mesh reinforcing visible in them. But photos showing remains of the floor decks exist, like e.g. this one http://www.fema.gov/photodata/original/3911.jpg. Concerning your guess of the total area of metal decking it seems to be highly underestimated to me. As Oystein noted, the area of one floor is around 4000 m² (but we have to subtract the area of the core) so that total area of decks in one tower should be (very roughly) 3000 x 100 = 300 000 m². Or am I wrong?

 

[bill smith]

I have not yet seen enough photos of the debris to be sure that there is no wire mesh reinforcing visible in them. But photos showing remains of the floor decks exist, like e.g. this one http://www.fema.gov/photodata/original/3911.jpg. Concerning your guess of the total area of metal decking it seems to be highly underestimated to me. As Oystein noted, the area of one floor is around 4000 m² (but we have to subtract the area of the core) so that total area of decks in one tower should be (very roughly) 3000 x 100 = 300 000 m². Or am I wrong?

I can't find photos with much wire mesh. Here's a few aerial photos of ground zero. I don't think I can see anything like 15 kilometers of core columns there either - can you ?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/gzaerial3.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/gzaerial4.html

 

[DGM]

I can't find photos with much wire mesh. Here's a few aerial photos of ground zero. I don't think I can see anything like 15 kilometers of core columns there either - can you ?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/gzaerial3.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/gzaerial4.html

Do you have a picture that shows what this "wire mesh" would look like? I think you're looking for something and you have no idea what it looks like (Chicken wire was a clue for me).