Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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Good grief. If his high school physics teacher is still alive, he should ask him for a refund too.

Dave

I'm referring to what happens when a large object that is rotating about a point breaks apart. The smaller pieces don't maintain the angular momentum about that fixed point.

Or are you making a different point?
 
Oh please, have you read any of the other comments today. I've just posted the bit where NIST says global collapse appeared to be symmetrical.

So like the rest of your gang, you are trying to twist the meaning of symmetry and what NIST means when they use that word. And this is the basis for your whole debunking argument?

It's quite pathetic and shows you have no clue as to how all four corners of WTC7 could have failed at once to have caused that downward and symmetrical movement of a single unit.
 
I'm referring to what happens when a large object that is rotating about a point breaks apart. The smaller pieces don't maintain the angular momentum about that fixed point.

Or are you making a different point?

Ah, I see what you mean. I thought he was claiming that angular momentum isn't conserved when an object breaks apart.

More exactly, the smaller pieces don't maintain their rotational motion about the original fixed point; rather, they'll continue to move in a straight line in the direction they were going at the moment they became separated, unless acted on by other forces, in accordance with Newton's laws. However, they are still moving along a line that doesn't pass through the original point of reference, so, yes, they still have the same angular momentum about that point - again, unless acted on by other forces. Overall, angular momentum is conserved, but angular motion isn't.

Dave
 
So far mrkinnies has stated that the building, if it collapsed naturally, should fall through the lower block with a significant amount of rotation. It should also break apart when crashing through the lower block. Furthermore, he agrees that only intact objects should maintain their angular momentum.

Which leaves him a bit of a pickle.

He's starting to do a femr2 with this conundrum. He knows he's probably wrong but doesn't understand the subject well enough to figure out where, so he's just going to play semantic games hoping you'll give up.
 
As we agreed, NIST said that the collapse "appears symmetrical". That's a subjective impression drawn from an observation, not the observation itself; that's what the word "appears" means.



Except, when you study it in detail - by, for example, looking at videos of the collapse, looking at photos of the rubble pile, and applying very simple reasoning - then it's clear that it wasn't symmetrical, despite some people's superficial impressions.

Not that any of this is in any way relevant to anything, given that nobody has offered a shred of evidence that (a) symmetry is a property of controlled demolitions or (b) a superficial appearance of symmetry is impossible in a collapse due to fire and impact damage.

Dave

I agree that the term "symmetrical" is basically subjective. What NIST's admission does (not that they had a choice knowing that anyone could access photo and video) is force debunkers to explain how such a symmetrically appearing collapse follows from such asymmetrical damage.
 
I'm referring to what happens when a large object that is rotating about a point breaks apart. The smaller pieces don't maintain the angular momentum about that fixed point.

Or are you making a different point?

Newtons Bit, I'm sure you are capable of blinding me with facts and figures about rotating objects but the simple fact is you are asking a number of questions which have no relevance to me. Like Dave Rogers, you are asking me to imagine a scenario and say what would happen. Where is this leading and how does it relate to WTC7?
 
I agree that the term "symmetrical" is basically subjective. What NIST's admission does (not that they had a choice knowing that anyone could access photo and video) is force debunkers to explain how such a symmetrically appearing collapse follows from such asymmetrical damage.

?? NIST has explained that already. Truthers still can't read, apparently.:D

Truthers still cannot explain how, but from fire, the building could collapse the way it did. They are at a loss as to how mythical explosives could act on it to bring the global collapse WITHOUT THE SOUND OF EXPLOSIONS at that instant.

And they never will, because it is ultimately a futile exercise for truthers. They will continue to deflect away instead.
 
I agree that the term "symmetrical" is basically subjective. What NIST's admission does (not that they had a choice knowing that anyone could access photo and video) is force debunkers to explain how such a symmetrically appearing collapse follows from such asymmetrical damage.

Rapid progressive failure. Loads redistribute, effectively, at the speed of sound in steel (more precisely at the speed of propagation of an elastic deformation, which is more or less the same thing), causing failure to propagate across the structure so rapidly that only a relatively small amount of angular momentum is imparted to the structure by the turning moment due to non-simultaneous failure. Therefore, the rotation observed in the structure during the visible part of the collapse is quite small, but the overall rotation of the structure - to the south, as expected, in the direction of greater fire and impact damage - results in a substantially asymmetrical appearance of the rubble pile.

It's not actually difficult to explain at all.

Dave
 
Edx, that's a lot of words

Shame you obviously didn't read any of them.

yet proves nothing about sound and microphones other than cheap or broken microphones don't record very well.

You still don't get it.

1. The cheap or broken microphone in the video you posted still picks up the sound of the detonation and it is differentiated between the wind

2. We have no similar videos on 911 with audio that poor or worse filming the WTC - where (crucial point here) the sound is so bad we aren't able to tell what sound is from the collapse and what sound is from something else.

3. All videos of all 3 collapses we have show zero explosive detonations, even if one couldn't pick it up because it was broken, another would have. That is exactly what we seen with the demolition you posted earlier, where all the videos I saw, even other crappy ones, the explosions from the demolition were clearly picked up. You are claiming that of all the videos and microphones on 911 filming the collapse were not working correctly. But its worse than that because no videos on 911 were broken the way they would have to be broken to make it hard or impossible to tell the explosive detonations from any other sound (see 2)

4. We already know the most dramatic collapses on 911 (WTC1 and 2) is where truthers claim the most dramatic explosive effects, like explosives so intense they flung heavy steel hundreds of feet. I posted 2 professionally recorded videos practically right under the collapse that showed a progressive rumble turning into a roar. If there were gigantic explosives going off it would have been clearly audible on those recordings, there's really no way to argue to the contrary. If it couldn't pick up indiviudal detonations the explosions would have to be SO loud it immediately distorted the microphones instantly and continuously, which is what Im asking for as well, except you don't have that either.

Where's the sound of the falling structure of the Penthouse and the buckling of the columns between 7 and 14 again?

The cameras were far enough away to not capture it. Again, we have videos of the collapse at various distances, one at least is only a few blocks away with a camera pointed right at it while they were giving an interview on the street.

There is a certain directional component to professional recording equipment the news uses but its not THAT good and in fact would have been picked up anyway as WTC7 was right behind the reporter even if it was. Explosives you're talking about would be many many times louder than the sound of the collapse itself, just watch some verinage videos for the kind of sound a building collapse makes without explosives.

The video you posted wasn't even a very big demolition with probably only minimal explosives used, yet you claim a far more dramatic intense one for WTC7 and ABSURDLY intense explosives going off in WTC1+2, yet the demolition in the video you posted was still extremely loud and much louder than what you can show on 911 anyway. Long story short, it would have picked it up if it had happened.

And what about Bill's video posted this morning of the explosive noises - could these be charges going off in building 7 and if not, why not?

Again, plenty of things can explode, and hearing explosions are not remarkable in a building fire. Even when its not a building fire, plenty of things can sound like an explosion and youve already been shown plenty of examples. People even use words like explosion, blast and that it sounded like a bomb even when they already know they arent talking about an actual bomb when they said it.

I already challenged you to tell me how to tell the difference between someone hearing an explosive going off and someone hearing something else. I guess we have to add to that what evidence or reason you have that the sound in that video is from an explosive rather than something else. Because if there are multitude of things it could be and explosions in this context are completely expected, then what reason do we have to think it's specifically explosives? I already gave you the example of me claiming to have filmed an alien spaceship even thouigh it looks just like a plane and planes are common in the area, what reason would I have to claim it was something other than a plane?

Your video does not show the collapse of WTC7 either. We know that if there were explosives going off when it collapsed, which is the claim made by people like Richard Gage, that they would have been picked up on video. The fact that videos in a position to record this did not pick this up in any of the collapses even though that is the moment when all these amazingly dramatic things truthers claim are supposed to be happening is conclusive evidence they did not happen and could not have happened, unless you want to claim quiet explosives went off or was demolished entirely with thermite or something, which brings its own problems but at least it would be quiet.

You can find me all the loud sounds you want, but if you're someone thats going to claim things like steel was ejected by massive explosives in the collapse, or 8 stories was removed instantly to allow 2.25 seconds of free fall but all videos in a position to pick up these explosions do not, then I really have no reason to take that claim seriously and thats probably why no one apart from your fringe little group takes any of this seriously.

I should explain that I believe cutting charges went off throughout the day on 9/11 in WTC7 so as to weaken the structure ahead of final demolition - at least one debunker here didn't understand this point.

I do wonder how many cutter charges you imagine had to go off every once and a while over the 7 hours and why no one noticed all these huge blasts going off over and over again. You can see numerous news reports and firefighters that spoke of how concerned they were about the fires and damge of 7, but none said anything like "...and every once and while a huge explosion would go off and we'd all jump". Nothing like that, why? There's no shortage of firefighters that talked about the state of 7 and how concerned everyone was a. Incidently there's a reason no truther will ever quote a firefighter on 911 about WTC7. NEVER. Why? Because they contradict just about every point truthers make about it.

But yes I do understand the point you're making and I have been asking you what demolition works this way and what explosives work this way for several pages. You don't know, because you and all other truthers just make up these fantasies of how you think a demolition and explosives work, which is why you'll find truthers claiming you can muffle a high explosive like a silencer on a gun or a building in front of WTC7 would realistically muffle an explosive detonation, or that thermite can fling steel around quietly (yes Gage argued that). You also don't care how explosives work because you want to just make up whatever you like, the same way you guys do with nano thermite because you think "nano" means you can ascribe whatever properties you want to it and claim some variation of..."you dont know what the government has man!!" when anyone says its impossible.

If you're going to claim these things you're going to have to at least provide some evidence explosives work that way or that demolitions have ever worked this way. Failing that, which is a big fail, do you even have a theory as to how it could work? I'd also like to know, as I mentioned earlier, why no one noticed all these randomly huge detonations going off in WTC7 as it burned for 7 hours.
 
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Newtons Bit, I'm sure you are capable of blinding me with facts and figures about rotating objects but the simple fact is you are asking a number of questions which have no relevance to me. Like Dave Rogers, you are asking me to imagine a scenario and say what would happen. Where is this leading and how does it relate to WTC7?

All I'm trying to do is understand how you think a natural collapse should progress. You've made statements on the matter that are contradictory. This leads me to believe you don't know what you're talking about. Other posters are noticing the same thing.
 
I agree that the term "symmetrical" is basically subjective. What NIST's admission does (not that they had a choice knowing that anyone could access photo and video) is force debunkers to explain how such a symmetrically appearing collapse follows from such asymmetrical damage.

I dont think anyone would say that that WTC7 did not have any "appearance" of symmetry. But just saying that is not necessarily the same as what truthers say and as NIST already said at the time its clear they do not mean what truthers mean when they said it. People like MrKinnies want to ignore all the context around that word and claim NIST means the same thing he does.
 
Fire does make steel buildings collapse.

I see no concrete walls.

I don't care what you cannot see. They were there. The building was right across the street from me. I saw it that day. Brick Walls about 9 foot high either side
 
Two problems with this argument.

A) it was a single storey building and they don't require to be fireproofed. I maybe wrong here as I don't know the codes in place during the construction of this building but here in the UK, single storey steel structures are not fireproofed.

Without checking the UK codes to confirm that, how about you take a guess at how long the fireproofing on 7 was rated for. 7's fire also wasn't fought.
 
Newtons Bit, I'm sure you are capable of blinding me with facts and figures about rotating objects but the simple fact is you are asking a number of questions which have no relevance to me. Like Dave Rogers, you are asking me to imagine a scenario and say what would happen. Where is this leading and how does it relate to WTC7?


I think it leads to the point where its quite clear you know nothing relevant about the subject on which you pontificate. Newtons bits comments were high school physics....nothing remotely complex.:boxedin:
 
Rapid progressive failure. Loads redistribute, effectively, at the speed of sound in steel (more precisely at the speed of propagation of an elastic deformation, which is more or less the same thing), causing failure to propagate across the structure so rapidly that only a relatively small amount of angular momentum is imparted to the structure by the turning moment due to non-simultaneous failure. Therefore, the rotation observed in the structure during the visible part of the collapse is quite small, but the overall rotation of the structure - to the south, as expected, in the direction of greater fire and impact damage - results in a substantially asymmetrical appearance of the rubble pile.

It's not actually difficult to explain at all.

Dave


Or to understand if you have an adequate education.:cool:
 
I dont think anyone would say that that WTC7 did not have any "appearance" of symmetry. But just saying that is not necessarily the same as what truthers say and as NIST already said at the time its clear they do not mean what truthers mean when they said it. People like MrKinnies want to ignore all the context around that word and claim NIST means the same thing he does.

What are you talking about? And who are these "truthers"? It really bogs down any discussion if you insist on assuming that there is a giant monolith of "Truthers", people who all believe the same thing.

There are only good arguments and bad ones. Once you get past your obsession with "Truthers" maybe you can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of NIST's hypothesis as well as criticisms lodged against it.

There's nothing wrong with MrK taking shots at the NIST report. S/he doesn't even have to present a competing theory. NIST had the money and the access to available evidence, with the greatest access to pertinent resources. That they didn't and couldn't even support their unprecedented hypotheses with physical evidence is more than enough reason to take potshots at it.
 
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