Moderated MLM Crap :(

[Joecool]

Basically build a big pyramid and stuff whatever product you can down it using whatever works the best. Of course the "tools" are more profitable than regularly products and they are self-reinforcing (e.g. all the tools do is try to get you to buy more tools).

Correct. When you break it down to simplest terms, an IBO buys stuff, sells stuff and tries to get downline (sponsor). If the business model works, why would you need an endless supply of standing orders and functions to learn these simple tasks that even a 5th grader could understand?

The answer is that the upline needs income so they keep promoting and selling their motivational junks to unsuspecting faithful downline.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Correct. When you break it down to simplest terms, an IBO buys stuff, sells stuff and tries to get downline (sponsor). If the business model works, why would you need an endless supply of standing orders and functions to learn these simple tasks that even a 5th grader could understand?

The answer is that the upline needs income so they keep promoting and selling their motivational junks to unsuspecting faithful downline.

Bingo. The network is the customer. Those "building" their own "business" are the ones that are making the money for their upline. Not any of the so-called customers.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Here's another question. Why is Icerat the ONLY person on the entire internet who defends amway?

 

[Joecool]

Here's another question. Why is Icerat the ONLY person on the entire internet who defends amway?

Because in my opinion, he's a kool aid drinking brainwashed droogy. He has a strange way of twisting things around. For example, you may note that only 1 in 20,000 IBOs make it to diamond and Icerat will say "see, proof that it works"

He actually believes that Amway work and that any abuse of downline is minimal. Even though there is plenty of evidence that no system is pure and better in any significant way than another. Just look at this one about his beloved and sacred N21:

See here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7409086&postcount=323

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, breach of rule 4.

 

[Mycroft]

Or are you just saying it's confirmation it can or did occur?

Was that ever in dispute?

So now after disputing it you're telling me you're not disputing it?

Anyone with experience in sales knows what an end of the month push is like. If you want to be successful, you make the calls, you contact the clients, you try to make those last few sales. You do it even though you know some of those people getting the calls will be annoyed. It's the job. At the same time, you're doing it to people who want your product. If you're not, you're a lousy salesman.

Claiming that it doesn't happen or even that it's the exception is simply not credible.

Amway is different in that the people getting the calls are under the delusion that they're the sales force and not the market. You can compare it to a buyers club and compare the points to grocery store rewards programs, but your grocery store doesn't call you at the end of the month to pressure you into buying extra shampoo, vitamins or pots & pans. They're content to let you make those decisions on your own, and if they want to offer an incentive there is no more pressure involved than a sign next to the product or a flyer in the newspaper.

I read that as a tautology - "Given he's working in behavioural economics, I find the assertion he's working in behavioural economics a dubious claim".

Checking wikipedia quickly...behavioral economics is the study of why individuals and institutions make the economic choices they do. That's quite a bit removed from what your guy does, which is to counsel people on what the right decisions are. In any case, you're impressed with the guy, I'm not, let's leave it at that.

So what's your point? You can make that money with "nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps." in Amway too.

If you want to argue straw men, argue them with yourself and save your time typing and my time reading.

Nothing to buy except voicemail, your IBO kit with samples, books, cd's, website fees, fees for your weekly or monthly meetings, and then fees to attend whatever function is coming to town. C'mon dude, pitching Amway as being free is an outright lie.

non sequitur, indeed so much so it should be in capital letters.

Amway Wiki currently lists some 65 of these types of companies, and there's undoubtedly many more. Taking material from one of them and claiming it applies to all of them, and not only all the people who utilise those companies, but the many who do not, is irrational.

This just illustrates how prevalent the practice is. Seriously, do you really think there would be a need for 65 of these companies just to service Amway cattle if there wasn't some serious coin to be made doing it?

 

[icerat]

So now after disputing it you're telling me you're not disputing it?

where did I dispute it?

Anyone with experience in sales knows what an end of the month push is like. If you want to be successful, you make the calls, you contact the clients, you try to make those last few sales. You do it even though you know some of those people getting the calls will be annoyed. It's the job. At the same time, you're doing it to people who want your product. If you're not, you're a lousy salesman.

Claiming that it doesn't happen or even that it's the exception is simply not credible.

Not quite the same thing. In the situation in discussion it was primarily downline business partners being pressured to buy stuff out rather than anyone who was primarily a customer.

Amway is different in that the people getting the calls are under the delusion that they're the sales force and not the market.

In the example given I think I agree with you. Where I disagree is in the idea this "is Amway". It's certainly not the Amway I experienced, and there's nothing in the model that inherently creates this.

It's how these people chose to run their businesses.

You can compare it to a buyers club and compare the points to grocery store rewards programs, but your grocery store doesn't call you at the end of the month to pressure you into buying extra shampoo, vitamins or pots & pans.

No, they send you flyers through the mail and blast you with TV advertisements.

They're content to let you make those decisions on your own, and if they want to offer an incentive there is no more pressure involved than a sign next to the product or a flyer in the newspaper.

Again, I agree with you that this a bad way to run a business. So does virtually all the IBOs on Amway Talk. But it's not an inherent part of the Amway model. It's how these people, who it should be noted have been kicked out of Amway, were running their business.

Checking wikipedia quickly...behavioral economics is the study of why individuals and institutions make the economic choices they do. That's quite a bit removed from what your guy does, which is to counsel people on what the right decisions are. In any case, you're impressed with the guy, I'm not, let's leave it at that.

I've read his book and others by those who research in the field. It's essentially behavioural economics, a field I find fascinating.

Nothing to buy except voicemail, your IBO kit with samples, books, cd's, website fees, fees for your weekly or monthly meetings, and then fees to attend whatever function is coming to town. C'mon dude, pitching Amway as being free is an outright lie.

(1) I never said it was free. In most countries there's a small membership fee, and in some countries (not the US) you are required to buy the sample kit, which is returnable.
(2) For the goddamn umpteenth time, will you damn well write it down so you don't forget - the vast majority of people who are registered with Amway do not buy voicemail, books, cds, meeting tickets, website fees etc etc etc. I'm an Amway member in 4 different markets and I haven't bought any of that stuff in a long time

This just illustrates how prevalent the practice is. Seriously, do you really think there would be a need for 65 of these companies just to service Amway cattle if there wasn't some serious coin to be made doing it?

(a) welcome to free enterprise
(b) Amway is bigger than you think. Way way way way bigger than you think

 

[Joecool]

Claiming that it doesn't happen or even that it's the exception is simply not credible.

Nothing to buy except voicemail, your IBO kit with samples, books, cd's, website fees, fees for your weekly or monthly meetings, and then fees to attend whatever function is coming to town. C'mon dude, pitching Amway as being free is an outright lie.

The "good" Amway?

http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2011/07/good-amway.html

It doesn't exist!

 

[Mycroft]

where did I dispute it?



Not quite the same thing. In the situation in discussion it was primarily downline business partners being pressured to buy stuff out rather than anyone who was primarily a customer.

That’s a distinction without a difference, sport. With Amway the “downline business partner” is the primary customer. He just might not realize it.

In the example given I think I agree with you. Where I disagree is in the idea this "is Amway". It's certainly not the Amway I experienced, and there's nothing in the model that inherently creates this.

It's how these people chose to run their businesses.

The end of the month push is a part of most sales organizations, there is nothing that makes Amway different. That Amways customer base is also primarily its “downline business partners” has already been established.

No, they send you flyers through the mail and blast you with TV advertisements.

Which are a lot less pressure and easier to ignore than a phone call from your upline. C’mon, what exactly are you arguing here?

Again, I agree with you that this a bad way to run a business. So does virtually all the IBOs on Amway Talk. But it's not an inherent part of the Amway model. It's how these people, who it should be noted have been kicked out of Amway, were running their business.

Again, “virtually all the IBO’s on Amway Talk” equals you, correct? I don’t see anyone in that thread other than “IBOfightback”, aka Icerat arguing that this practice is uncommon or bad.

(1) I never said it was free. In most countries there's a small membership fee, and in some countries (not the US) you are required to buy the sample kit, which is returnable.

You did say ”So what's your point? You can make that money with "nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps." in Amway too.” Now you’re saying “I never said it was free.” Please make up your mind what your position is.

(2) For the goddamn umpteenth time, will you damn well write it down so you don't forget - the vast majority of people who are registered with Amway do not buy voicemail, books, cds, meeting tickets, website fees etc etc etc. I'm an Amway member in 4 different markets and I haven't bought any of that stuff in a long time

Do you have anything to back it up? Any evidence?

(a) welcome to free enterprise
(b) Amway is bigger than you think. Way way way way bigger than you think

It it’s so huge, how can you confidently state your experience as the typical experience?

 

[Joecool]

Icerat always makes the claim that hardly anyone buys the tools. I wonder how he can explain the functions going on all over the country where there might be 20,000 or more in attendance. And since Icerat admits he doesn't attend these meetings, it explains why he doesn't witness the abuse that is clearly apparent by commentary on this and many many many other forums.

 

[icerat]

That’s a distinction without a difference, sport. With Amway the “downline business partner” is the primary customer. He just might not realize it.

Any evidence to support that?

No, I didn't think so.

The end of the month push is a part of most sales organizations, there is nothing that makes Amway different. That Amways customer base is also primarily its “downline business partners” has already been established.

Are you talking retail customer or wholesale customer? The later is by definition.

Which are a lot less pressure and easier to ignore than a phone call from your upline. C’mon, what exactly are you arguing here?

It's really easy to ignore a phone call from your upline pressuring you to buy stuff when it's never happened to me - even when active.

Again, “virtually all the IBO’s on Amway Talk” equals you, correct? I don’t see anyone in that thread other than “IBOfightback”, aka Icerat arguing that this practice is uncommon or bad.

Then you need to learn to read better. Why don't you post a comment there and ask if people think it's a good idea?

You did say ”So what's your point? You can make that money with "nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps." in Amway too.” Now you’re saying “I never said it was free.” Please make up your mind what your position is.

fine. Go to the UK. Membership is free there too.

Do you have anything to back it up? Any evidence?

Yup. My own personal business statistics. Team vs Quixtar lawsuit. WWDB parameters and N21 vital signs. The latter two of which are statistics on "tool purchases" collated by two major BSM companies. Personal communications with many top leaders. Ask any IBO who has built a group of bigger than a dozen or so. The majority of people who join Amway, even the majority who join and then by products, do not participate in "the system".

It it’s so huge, how can you confidently state your experience as the typical experience?

I can't definitively state that, however after several years personal experience, a decade researching the company, including every critics website and every lawsuit and almost every book , academic paper and newspaper article, communications with executives a Amway and multiple affiliated companies, as well as top achievers in the field and lower level IBOs from dozens of different groups and dozens of different countries has certainly given me some confidence in my conclusions about what is typical.

How can you confidently state your opinion is correct?

Have you even read a single book by an independent source on Amway or multilevel marketing?

 

[Joecool]

Any evidence to support that?

The evidence is on Icerat's forums. The pro Amwayers talk about having "some" customers but there is no evidence that anyone is close to making a living or large coin by selling these goods.

It's really easy to ignore a phone call from your upline pressuring you to buy stuff when it's never happened to me - even when active.

Again, one man's experience. Amway is way way big as you say. Also, why would your upline call you when you're not active and not attending functions?

fine. Go to the UK. Membership is free there too.

Looks like Amway UK was a PR thing. It appears Amway did whatever they could to avoid getting shut down, even so far as to give free membership.

Yup. My own personal business statistics. Team vs Quixtar lawsuit. WWDB parameters and N21 vital signs. The latter two of which are statistics on "tool purchases" collated by two major BSM companies. Personal communications with many top leaders. Ask any IBO who has built a group of bigger than a dozen or so. The majority of people who join Amway, even the majority who join and then by products, do not participate in "the system".

I had a group of a dozen front line legs and some of them also had downline. Most of them were on the system and attending seminars. I guess that debunks your agurment right there. If my experience is too limited to be counted, then yours would be as well.

I can't definitively state that, however after several years personal experience, a decade researching the company, including every critics website and every lawsuit and almost every book , academic paper and newspaper article, communications with executives a Amway and multiple affiliated companies, as well as top achievers in the field and lower level IBOs from dozens of different groups and dozens of different countries has certainly given me some confidence in my conclusions about what is typical.

How can you confidently state your opinion is correct?

What is this? "I know you are but what am I"? You google Amway and there tons of site and forums with testimony and most of it is negative. That's likely because most people who had a brush with Amway viewed it as negative. Is this hard to understand?

 

[Skeptic]

For the zillionth time: the problem with Amway isn't that some people lose money. It is that almost all people lose money by design. But in any case, why would one wish to join a "business opportunity" that is significantly less lucrative than getting a part-time minimum-wage job at McDonald's?

 

[icerat]

For the zillionth time: the problem with Amway isn't that some people lose money. It is that almost all people lose money by design.

Care to explain how? There's nothing in the "design" of the model that supports what you are saying, certainly not in the traditional stair-step compensation model, which operates virtually identically to traditional product distribution, ie buy more stuff, get it cheaper, sell it at a mark-up, make money.

So please explain your "by design" comment.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I think it's funny that icerat think that "top leaders" would actually be truthful to him about how they make their money.

Again, icerat ISN'T IN ON THE SCAM. He's not high enough or successful enough to be in a position to know who profits from the tool business. Why should we listen to him or consider him an authority on the manner?

I, on the other hand, was able to see the books on this stuff.

I'm not selling anything here (unlike icerat). All I'm going to say is buyer beware. If you get mixed up with this scammers you will regret it. In the 30+ years I've been close to amway I've seen a lot of people come and go, including many "diamonds" who went broke. Almost all of them came out worse than they went in. Beware!

 

[Joecool]

I think it's funny that icerat think that "top leaders" would actually be truthful to him about how they make their money.

Again, icerat ISN'T IN ON THE SCAM. He's not high enough or successful enough to be in a position to know who profits from the tool business. Why should we listen to him or consider him an authority on the manner?

I, on the other hand, was able to see the books on this stuff.

I'm not selling anything here (unlike icerat). All I'm going to say is buyer beware. If you get mixed up with this scammers you will regret it. In the 30+ years I've been close to amway I've seen a lot of people come and go, including many "diamonds" who went broke. Almost all of them came out worse than they went in. Beware!

It should also be noted that Icerat, by his own admission, isn't actively participating in the business, therefore does not have a good perspective of what's going on and hasn't produced a shred of evidence to support his claims. Newton Trino's testimony is much more credible and believable.

For some bizarre reason, Icerat cannot grasp that although Amway and the tool sellers are seperate businesses, they are symbiotic. They basically cannot thrive without each other.

 

[Almo]

Care to explain how? There's nothing in the "design" of the model that supports what you are saying, certainly not in the traditional stair-step compensation model, which operates virtually identically to traditional product distribution, ie buy more stuff, get it cheaper, sell it at a mark-up, make money.

So please explain your "by design" comment.

Each person above takes a cut. That can't be sustainable. It's simple math. Wal-mart's distribution system has so many fewer steps where people take a cut. We've been over this before. Amway's products are more expensive because of the weight of the pyramid, not because they're better.

Remember that I'm a Mac user; I don't mind paying a load for a better product. My MacPro cost me $3000 Canadian, and I love it. But that MacPro isn't $3000 because of all the people up the chain who needed to be paid. Sure there's a chain, but it's much shorter. The MacPro is $3000 because of things like great design on the inside (plug-in harddrives with no loose wires, fan shroud plugs in with no wires...), the steel case (thing weighs about 65 pounds), easy-to-use OS that's worth extra cost over Windows, etc.

I've seen your claims that Amway products are better. These are often with vitamins which are next to impossible to prove quality with. If the products were so much better, IBOs wouldn't have so much trouble getting people to buy them. Even with these outrageous prices on Mac hardware, they are gaining market share.

Mom bought some dish detergent from an Amway distributor. That's an actual sale to a customer. Once it was empty, she went back to Dawn, because the massive extra cost didn't translate into massive extra quality.

The market shows where the value is. It's not at Amway.

 

[icerat]

Each person above takes a cut. That can't be sustainable. It's simple math.

It's also not even remotely true.

Wal-mart's distribution system has so many fewer steps where people take a cut.

Walmart has fewer steps than virtually everyone. That doesn't make all other companies unsustainable.

We've been over this before. Amway's products are more expensive because of the weight of the pyramid, not because they're better.

This claim keeps getting made, but so far for every product compared on this thread, Amway has generally been cheaper - and that's for products where there's been an additional step of manufacturer->Amway which doesn't exist for Amway's brands.

Remember that I'm a Mac user; I don't mind paying a load for a better product. My MacPro cost me $3000 Canadian, and I love it. But that MacPro isn't $3000 because of all the people up the chain who needed to be paid. Sure there's a chain, but it's much shorter. The MacPro is $3000 because of things like great design on the inside (plug-in harddrives with no loose wires, fan shroud plugs in with no wires...), the steel case (thing weighs about 65 pounds), easy-to-use OS that's worth extra cost over Windows, etc.

How many of Amway's brands have you used?

I've seen your claims that Amway products are better. These are often with vitamins which are next to impossible to prove quality with. If the products were so much better, IBOs wouldn't have so much trouble getting people to buy them. Even with these outrageous prices on Mac hardware, they are gaining market share.

You do understand that Amway's supplement brand is #1 in the world, more than three times the size of it's nearest competitor?

Mom bought some dish detergent from an Amway distributor. That's an actual sale to a customer. Once it was empty, she went back to Dawn, because the massive extra cost didn't translate into massive extra quality.

Used properly it should be cheaper, not "massive extra cost". In my experience most people use way too much, which doesn't improve cleaning but makes it awfully more expensive. Amway says one bottle of dishdrops, washing twice a day, should last nearly four months. Looking around the net, people say Dawn lasts them about a month.

Having said that, there's a reason why Amway's been primarily a health & beauty company for the past 15 years - the competition in the cleaning category has caught up a lot and Amway's cleaning products are not as competitive as they used to be.

Still, P&Gs concentrated Dawn Botanicals Ultra is 58c/oz (buying in bulk, 6 bottles) and Amway's Dish Drops (buying one bottle) is 26c/Oz . Or you can try Dawn Ultra Hand Renewal, since Dish Drops also makes "hand" claims. It's the same price as DD - 26c/oz. Yes there's also cheaper brands, but clearly there's a market for these other, more expensive categories as well.

The market shows where the value is. It's not at Amway.

ummm .....

Nutrilite, #1 best selling supplement brand in the world
Artistry, #3 best selling prestige cosmetics and skincare brand in the world
eSpring, #1 best selling point-of-use home water treatment system in the world.

 

[Joecool]

ummm .....

Nutrilite, #1 best selling supplement brand in the world
Artistry, #3 best selling prestige cosmetics and skincare brand in the world
eSpring, #1 best selling point-of-use home water treatment system in the world.

Since about 96% of Amway's goods are sold to IBOs, where would Amway rank without IBO self consumption sales?

 

[Almo]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/05/01/idUS84566+01-May-2009+BW20090501

No mention of Amway or Nutrilite there... I don't see any evidence of it being the best selling supplement brand in the world.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Since about 96% of Amway's goods are sold to IBOs, where would Amway rank without IBO self consumption sales?

Also what is a "prestige" brand and who decides this? Sounds like bs to me.

Also selling a bunch of products to your IBO's/cult members doesn't mean much in my eyes. There are very few people in the real world that use amway products. That's not to say they don't have any customers, although most of the ones they do have are friends and family members of IBO's who think they are doing them a favor by buying their garbage. I've yet to see any decent stats showing that amway sells much in the way of products to non-IBO consumers anyway (I'm sure icerat will try to convince us otherwise by trying to paint the thing as a buying club or some bs like that).