Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[bolint]

We're working with bolint (glad to see him back) on such a reconstruction, IIRC he accepts the ToD of around 21:00.

Yes. I think it happened before 22:00.

 

[Justinian2]

Have any of those arguing for guilt ever proposed a detailed narrative of what they "believe" happened that night? Have any even offered a time of death?

It seems like all we are getting is vague personal beliefs.

As usual.

It starts with a derranged psychotic with power that picks on an icon of the enemy. Those around the psychotic gain power and money from the connection. Others form into groups and circle the wagons. They pick on the icon in all manner of psychotic & paranoid ways. Then they pick on the supporters of the icon in the same manner because, after all, the real target are the people that the icon represents.

The guilters parallel the Nazis and the Al-qaeda. Same pattern, different story.

 

[RWVBWL]

The bathmat...

Greetings everyone,
With the prosecutions case crumbling left and right, I wonder if Hellmann's court will take a look at the bathmat footprint also.

Most who believe Raffaele Sollecito to be guilty point out the blood stained bathmat as evidence of his involvement. Reading a few posts by Bolint this morning, I find that he/she is 1 of rare members of the Colpevolisti who does not believe that it is Raffaele's footprint. Others disagree and there has been much discussion about this bloody footprint over the years. I've wondered, if there was an overnight clean-up to hide traces of Amanda and Raffaeles involvement in this horrible bloody murder, why did the bathmat still even have a bloody footprint on it? Everyone knows that you soak blood stains in cold water. Why was it still there? I find it hard to believe that this stain, as large as it is in comparrison to other bloody evidence found in Meredith and Amanda's bathroom did not warrant special attention to remove or hide it's presence. We all know that you gotta cover-up the evidence pointing to your guilt if you are worried about being busted.

Gosh, I remember waaay back when I was young dude and I used to steal some of my folks hard liquor. I would pour water in the Jack Daniels bottle afterwards to hide the fact that I, underage and guilty as sin, was sipping off of it. Had to cover my tracks, so to say. It worked, for I was never busted or punished for drinkin' my folks liquor, hahaha. Did you too ever cover your tracks also?

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that Amanda and Raff did participate in this horrible, bloody crime that took the life of Miss Meredith Kercher. Rudy is long gone, out dancing at the Domus nightclub. Most guilters believe that Amanda and Raffaele tried to get rid of all evidence that these 2 were there that night Meredith was killed by doing a selective clean-up. But the bathmat is a problem. I haven't posted much lately, but do read here daily. Being as I live in L.A. aka Hollywood, allow me to share a visualization with you of what might have happened as Amanda and Raff were coming down off being stoned and reality sank in that they were brutal murderers and they realized that they had better try and clean-up that bathmat:

"Raffalee, honey, try to rinse off your bloody footprint that you left on the bathmat in my bathroom sink to see if that blood will come off." Amanda tells Raff.

Minutes later, Raffaele replies, "Nah Amanda, I can't get it to come off",

"Well try the kitchen sink then, and let it soak in cold water for a bit," says Amanda, remembering that you always soak bloody clothes in cold water for a while.

"Amanda, it won't come out, I can still see my bloody footprint!" Raffaele tells her, getting more worried.

Hmmm, what to do, thinks Amanda.
"Hey Raff, honey, let's put it in the washing machine. That oughta take care of it."

But it doesn't. Time's wasting, hours have gone by, daylight is coming, and the clean-up is still not finished.

"What do we do about this fricken bloody bathmat, hooney? Why not just throw it away," Raff asks.

"Nah. Filomena or Laura might notice it gone, even though they they have their own bathroom and probably would't even notice it missing right away," Amanda says. "I know! When that little store opens, I'll get there right as it opens and buy some bleach and a new bathmat! Then we can just throw away that bloody one and replace it with a new one! Since Laura and Filomena don't ever use my bathroom, they will never even notice the difference, honey. What do you think?"

"Good idea, Amanda! Now let's hurry up and head back to my pad while it's still dark outside and turn our phones back on and I'll even goof on my laptop, to help strengthen our alibi that we never even left my apartment last night. I luv you honey bunny!"

"I luv you too"...


Hmmm, from a guilter's point of view, I'm still trying to make sense of the reason the bathmat was even left there for the police to find if it was indeed Raffaele Sollecito's footprint on it. Why not just throw it away? Who cares if it is missing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Amanda did not buy any bleach nor a new bathmat at Marco Quintavalle's Conad store that morning, did she?
And when the cops showed up, she even went and showed them that Jack Daniels bottle, opps, bloody bathmat, correct?

L8, RW

 

[JREF2010]

I have seen zilch from Machiavelli lately.

On the computers, additional evidence emerges that there is a log kept whenever a key is touched. It evidently activates a keyboard light and a log is kept of this. This would cover any action on the computer, not just the things that can be seen with the software the cops used. The police computer frying expert missed this one as well.

Thats really hard to imagine it logs this simple activity.
Thats interesting new news, at least to me. I've never heard this before?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Amanda told him a false story in which she was innocent and fearing that she may get into trouble.
They did not act irrationally. Amanda knew that she was in big trouble, Raffaele, however, thought that she is basically innocent and began to help her.

Let's slow down. Last time we got to the moment when Amanda leaves Raffaele and comes to the cottage just before 21:00. Just before Meredith died. What happened then that put her in that big trouble?

 

[Kaosium]

Are you, and Kevin for that matter, suggesting that the Kerchers are motivated by a pay out? If so, this is a disgusting proposition. Without evidence. Unskeptical.

Hrm, now I see you don't like this option either. There's only two reasons to file the 'civil part' in an Italian court, money and vengeance, there isn't a third unless you make it up. Victim's lawyers attempt to garner a settlement, which in most of these cases doesn't matter much being as there's nothing to extract, and to attempt to ensure the sentence is as long as possible. Italian sentencing works off a base sentence, of which are added 'mitigations' which are in the defendent's favor, and 'aggravations' which are circumstances that should cause a stiffer jail term. The victim's lawyer is supposed to contest the 'mitigations' and ask for more 'aggravations' at the same time.

In such cases where the victim has no one to support them, sometimes local dignitaries will take up the 'civil part' for particularly heinous crimes, in that case obviously not for the money which could go to no one, but to ensure that the accused gets the maximum possible sentence. However it is not considered 'proper' for some to take up the civil part, the Catholic church frowns on it for instance, and thus is hardly expected.

However, Lionking, that's what they're there for: money and vengeance, to get a settlement and see to it the perpetrator is punished as severely as is possible under Italian law.

What did you think they did?

 

[Matthew Best]

Yes, but they arrived too quickly after the call, in 2 minutes, and immediately started to talk about the phones.

In a town the size of Perugia, in how many minutes would you (or Knox/Sollecito) expect the police to arrive after phoning them, and how do you arrive at this number? Seems to me like 2 minutes would be a perfectly reasonable time, and it would have been weird for them to phone the police before they were ready, if they were actively involved in a clean-up.

I'm sure Randy can come up with a rather entertaining scenario for how that conversation would have gone. Something like:

Knox: "Have we finished cleaning up yet?"
Sollecito: "No, but let's call the police now, and then finish what we need to do while they're on their way over".
Knox: "Good idea!"

 

[Rolfe]

Vengeance is the desire to harm or bring consequences to someone who has harmed you. Vengeance is the reason for Maresca. Or, are you suggesting that there is some other reason for Maresca?

I can see one, a pretty big one.

Oh, reading on, I see you got it.

Most people would leave the question of giult or innocence to the criminal courts - certainly most people used to the English system I would imagine. After a conviction had been achieved, I suppose some might think about a civil action. Possibly.

Mr. Kercher has chosen to engage a lawyer and launch a civil action in this case before any conviction has been finalised. He's using that lawyer to try to bolster the prosecution case.

Why would that be, then, Lionking?

Rolfe.

 

[Kaosium]

You find it strange, don't you.
So do I.
And for some reason Amanda told this amazing "bathmat boogie" story to Mignini in the Dec 17 interrogation that was requested by herself and was conducted in the presence of her lawyers.

What I find even stranger is the idea she would have done it knowingly. The splotch itself doesn't necessarily scream bloody murder, and if she didn't know what it was she might not have cared overmuch just to get the few yards to her room, but to suggest she did it deliberately? Where's that come from? She knew that was her murdered roommate's blood but she would boogie it back to her room anyway? Keep a piece of potentially incriminating evidence around and play with it? Then tell them about it?

I'm afraid I can understand how a delusional nutcase like Mignini might see only one possibility there, but for me that's just exculpatory evidence.

 

[Diocletus]

Hrm, now I see you don't like this option either. There's only two reasons to file the 'civil part' in an Italian court, money and vengeance, there isn't a third unless you make it up. Victim's lawyers attempt to garner a settlement, which in most of these cases doesn't matter much being as there's nothing to extract, and to attempt to ensure the sentence is as long as possible. Italian sentencing works off a base sentence, of which are added 'mitigations' which are in the defendent's favor, and 'aggravations' which are circumstances that should cause a stiffer jail term. The victim's lawyer is supposed to contest the 'mitigations' and ask for more 'aggravations' at the same time.

In such cases where the victim has no one to support them, sometimes local dignitaries will take up the 'civil part' for particularly heinous crimes, in that case obviously not for the money which could go to no one, but to ensure that the accused gets the maximum possible sentence. However it is not considered 'proper' for some to take up the civil part, the Catholic church frowns on it for instance, and thus is hardly expected.

However, Lionking, that's what they're there for: money and vengeance, to get a settlement and see to it the perpetrator is punished as severely as is possible under Italian law.

What did you think they did?

I hadn't heard about the Church frowning on taking up the civil part. Why is that?

 

[Draca]

Greetings everyone,
With the prosecutions case crumbling left and right, I wonder if Hellmann's court will take a look at the bathmat footprint also.

Most who believe Raffaele Sollecito to be guilty point out the blood stained bathmat as evidence of his involvement. Reading a few posts by Bolint this morning, I find that he/she is 1 of rare members of the Colpevolisti who does not believe that it is Raffaele's footprint. Others disagree and there has been much discussion about this bloody footprint over the years. I've wondered, if there was an overnight clean-up to hide traces of Amanda and Raffaeles involvement in this horrible bloody murder, why did the bathmat still even have a bloody footprint on it? Everyone knows that you soak blood stains in cold water. Why was it still there? I find it hard to believe that this stain, as large as it is in comparison to other bloody evidence found in Meredith and Amanda's bathroom did not warrant special attention to remove or hide it's presence. We all know that you gotta cover-up the evidence pointing to your guilt if you are worried about being busted.

Gosh, I remember waaay back when I was young dude and I used to steal some of my folks hard liquor. I would pour water in the Jack Daniels bottle afterwards to hide the fact that I, underage and guilty as sin, was sipping off of it. Had to cover my tracks, so to say. It worked, for I was never busted or punished for drinkin' my folks liquor, hahaha. Did you too ever cover your tracks also?

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that Amanda and Raff did participate in this horrible, bloody crime that took the life of Miss Meredith Kercher. Rudy is long gone, out dancing at the Domus nightclub. Most guilters believe that Amanda and Raffaele tried to get rid of all evidence that these 2 were there that night Meredith was killed by doing a selective clean-up. But the bathmat is a problem. I haven't posted much lately, but do read here daily. Being as I live in L.A. aka Hollywood, allow me to share a visualization with you of what might have happened as Amanda and Raff were coming down off being stoned and reality sank in that they were brutal murderers and they realized that they had better try and clean-up that bathmat:

"Raffalee, honey, try to rinse off your bloody footprint that you left on the bathmat in my bathroom sink to see if that blood will come off." Amanda tells Raff.

Minutes later, Raffaele replies, "Nah Amanda, I can't get it to come off",

"Well try the kitchen sink then, and let it soak in cold water for a bit," says Amanda, remembering that you always soak bloody clothes in cold water for a while.

"Amanda, it won't come out, I can still see my bloody footprint!" Raffaele tells her, getting more worried.

Hmmm, what to do, thinks Amanda.
"Hey Raff, honey, let's put it in the washing machine. That oughta take care of it."

But it doesn't. Time's wasting, hours have gone by, daylight is coming, and the clean-up is still not finished.

"What do we do about this fricken bloody bathmat, hooney? Why not just throw it away," Raff asks.

"Nah. Filomena or Laura might notice it gone, even though they they have their own bathroom and probably would't even notice it missing right away," Amanda says. "I know! When that little store opens, I'll get there right as it opens and buy some bleach and a new bathmat! Then we can just throw away that bloody one and replace it with a new one! Since Laura and Filomena don't ever use my bathroom, they will never even notice the difference, honey. What do you think?"

"Good idea, Amanda! Now let's hurry up and head back to my pad while it's still dark outside and turn our phones back on and I'll even goof on my laptop, to help strengthen our alibi that we never even left my apartment last night. I luv you honey bunny!"

"I luv you too"...


Hmmm, from a guilter's point of view, I'm still trying to make sense of the reason the bathmat was even left there for the police to find if it was indeed Raffaele Sollecito's footprint on it. Why not just throw it away? Who cares if it is missing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Amanda did not buy any bleach nor a new bathmat at Marco Quintavalle's Conad store that morning, did she?
And when the cops showed up, she even went and showed them that Jack Daniels bottle, opps, bloody bathmat, correct?

L8, RW

RW, I always look forward to your posts. Post more.

I agree that it never made sense that there if there was a clean up they would just leave the bathmat. No one tried to rinse the stain out either. It wouldn't have been difficult to erase the stain by rinsing it out in the sink with a bit of soap. The blood traces would still be there but not the footprint. The old guilter doctrine of them not having time because the postal police surprised them doesn't work either. It was proven by the defense that Raffaele called the Carabinieri before the postal police arrived.

They could have easily have thrown it away, although that could have been noticed. It's the same with the kitchen knife. It never made sense that they would bring the murder weapon back to Raffaele's and put it in the drawer.

However, I don't think there will be time to look at anything else. July 30th is the last appeal court date. There will be a summer break and then closing arguments in early Sep followed by the verdict in late Sep. Apparently the appeal is not going to look at anything else in court. Hellmann could look over the opposing testimony of Rinaldi and Vinci and decide Vinci is correct though.

 

[Draca]

In a town the size of Perugia, in how many minutes would you (or Knox/Sollecito) expect the police to arrive after phoning them, and how do you arrive at this number? Seems to me like 2 minutes would be a perfectly reasonable time, and it would have been weird for them to phone the police before they were ready, if they were actively involved in a clean-up.

I'm sure Randy can come up with a rather entertaining scenario for how that conversation would have gone. Something like:

Knox: "Have we finished cleaning up yet?"
Sollecito: "No, but let's call the police now, and then finish what we need to do while they're on their way over".
Knox: "Good idea!"

Absolutely. They would not have called the police until the clean up was finished. Especially if they were trying to get away with murder they would have checked and checked again. It's hard to imagine they simply wouldn't notice the blood on the bathmat and try and do something. The only logical guilty reason to leave it would be because Rudy Guede left it and they wanted him to take the fall. But why didn't they at a point blame RG then?

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
As for who let Rudy in, I think they both (Amanda and Meredith) were there.
Rudy arrived first and then the two girls almost simultaneously.
<snip>

Hi Bolint,
I'm glad to see you drop by today, so please allow me to join the discussion with you...

You bring up a different scenerio than most other Colpevolisti members, so I want to ask you why do you believe that Amanda Knox, -(after being told by text from her boss that she did not have to work that night and then, after speaking with Jovanna Popovic, who said to tell Raffaele that she did not need him to do that late night favor for her), even went back to her home that night?

What made her run over there, -(without Raffaele in tow for safety reasons), that couldn't wait until morning when she and Raffaele were planning to go on that day trip to Gubbio? Fresh clothes? A good long hot shower and to grab some sexy lingerie? What was it?

Surely it wasn't because she wanted to grab that lil' pink luv toy to spice up their already boring 6 night long sex life that Judge Claudia Matteini made mention of:

"Raffaele Solecito, bored with the same old evenings and wanting to experience extreme sensations, intense sexual relations which beak up the monotony of everyday life," etc...

What is it that you believe that made Amanda leave a warm apartment on a cold night and head over to her own pad, -(with that huge kitchen knife in her large handbag), the night that Meredith was brutaly, bloodily murdered? To grab that lil' pink vibrator and show Raff an extreme sensation or 2?

I hope to hear a reply, your theory sounds interesting!
L8, RW

PS - As many of you long time readers here know,
I had to sit thru a civil -(meaning $$$$$$.00 or else), not criminal, trial for the rape of a former best friend. I even gave out the links to the old newspaper articles with all the personal details, showing that it did happen. As the truth helped set me free, I do believe the same will help set Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito free. Living thru my own rape trial nighmare, I do not have a problem speaking about what a penis did, or what a vibrator toy is for, or that Barbie Nadeau now states that Rudy Guede left ample quantity of his semen in Meredith Kercher's bedroom.

With this in mind, please let me ask another question:
If Rudy Guede whipped out his penis and ejaculated in Meredith Kercher's bedroom, what was Amanda Knox doing? Or Raffaele Sollecito, if he were even there? Watching Rudy get off, coaxing him onward? Go Rudy, go!?!
Or where they not even there?

There is simply no strong evidence to support the prosections theory that Amanda nor Raffaele were ever in Meredith's bedroom the night she was brutally stabbed to her death and sexually assaulted...

 

[Katody Matrass]

Absolutely. They would not have called the police until the clean up was finished. Especially if they were trying to get away with murder they would have checked and checked again. It's hard to imagine they simply wouldn't notice the blood on the bathmat and try and do something. The only logical guilty reason to leave it would be because Rudy Guede left it and they wanted him to take the fall. But why didn't they at a point blame RG then?

Let's not forget - in the phone call to the police Raffaele told them "there's some blood".

 

[Kaosium]

I hadn't heard about the Church frowning on taking up the civil part. Why is that?

I don't recall if Broken_English ever said, but my guess would be they're dubious of the idea of vengeance as a motivation. The RCC is big into forgiveness.

 

[Diocletus]

I don't recall if Broken_English ever said, but my guess would be they're dubious of the idea of vengeance as a motivation. The RCC is big into forgiveness.

Another thing that occurs to me is that this whole civil system they've designed in Italy is geared toward extracting "blood money": We won't seek to have you sent to prison for so long, if you pay us what we ask . . . or give us a pound of flesh. I wouldn't think the church would be too big on blood money, either.

 

[Draca]

Let's not forget - in the phone call to the police Raffaele told them "there's some blood".

In a guilt scenario it makes even less sense that they would bring up blood and leave a bloody footprint of Raffaele's on the bathmat. If they wanted to point out blood and 'control' the discovery they wouldn't have left an actual print of Raffaele's there that could be tied to him.

 

[komponisto]

Predictions

Not only will Giuseppe Novelli not testify that Stefanoni's work is reliable, he won't be testifying at all.

Neither, for that matter, will Stefanoni herself. Saturday will just be interrogation of Conti and Vecchiotti.

You heard it here first (unless you heard it somewhere else first ).

 

[Justinian2]

Only two hundred miles, as the crow flies, from Perugia we find Croatia, the epicenter for genocide, Croatia, Hitler, Muslims Al-Qaeda, terrorism and NATO bombing

The Republic of Serbia filed the genocide lawsuit against the Republic of Croatia on January 4, 2010.[4] The application covers missing people, killed people, refugees, expelled people and all military actions and concentration camps with historical account of World War II persecution of Serbs committed by the Independent State of Croatia, puppet state of Nazi Germany, and Ustaše during World War II.[5]

Both applications have a financial aspect, seeking compensation of damages. The President of Croatia, Stjepan Mesić said that "Serbia must pay the war reparations" while the Prime Minister of Serbia, Zoran Đinđić said that Croatia would have to pay reparations "for the expulsion of Serbian population and destruction of their property" noting that it could amount around 150 billion US dollars.[6]

Two hundred miles isn’t a lot!

Re: What logically effects Guilter thinking, and thus the conviction of Amanda, other than logic.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Not only will Giuseppe Novelli not testify that Stefanoni's work is reliable, he won't be testifying at all.

Neither, for that matter, will Stefanoni herself. Saturday will just be interrogation of Conti and Vecchiotti.

You heard it here first (unless you heard it somewhere else first ).

I just read an article that Comodi will be doing the cross examination. I'm sure she is a genius when it comes to science and will be a force to be reckoned with.

Link to article.

Does anyone else find it peculiar that lightweight Comodi is doing the cross for the prosecution's last stand? It's like they've already conceded defeat.