Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[AmyStrange]

I respect your honest opinion...

It doesn't give you a free pass to wrongly hurt other people. IMHO.

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...and thank you for sharing Diocletus,

but to me they definitely deserve much more of a free pass than a lot of the other pro-guilt folks who never knew Meredith and are only using her death as an excuse to be just plain mean. Not saying all pro-guilters are mean, but there are certainly many whose only agenda is pure unadulterated hatred, IMHO anyway,

Dave

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[theRealBob]

This is from one of the links posted earlier on this page.

As for the hook of the bra, the experts agreed: "We can not exclude that the results obtained may result from the phenomena of environmental contamination and / or contamination arising at any stage of the repertoire and / or manipulation of reperto”. finding. "

I like that...

 

[RandyN]

Apologies for going off topic, but where are you getting these numbers from? I know Italy is among the worst of the western European states in terms of human rights abuses, but I'm quite skeptical that it's 15 times worse than Russia. I suppose you're talking specifically about suspect's and defendant's rights rather than human rights in general, but even then I'm a bit skeptical of this claim.

Actually I was speaking off the top of my head...Italy is only 6 1/2 times worse than Russia. And no I am speaking about sheer numbers of actual Human Rights violations recorded by the court. I expect the real numbers of violations are much higher as most violations never see the High Court.
I am taking this information from an article I wrote called "A Court On Trial In Italyl" an excerpt follows.

A Court On Trial in Italy...

In Italy the Scazzi and Kercher murders both show perfect examples of what passes as acceptable behavior by the courts that work for the Italian people. These murder cases have been widely reported and so I will not repeat the details of them here.

After carefully following these two murder trials it comes as no surprise for me to discover that the European Court of Human Rights found Italy the worst offender (by far) of all signer countries.
Statistics available for review by the world reveal the shear volume in number of human rights violations committed by Italian courts.


In the period from 1999-2006 Italy was found to have 1,264 confirmed cases of known and uncontested Human Rights violations… As a comparison...Spain’s courts in this same time period where found to have violated its own citizens Human Rights only 24 times.

Italy 1,264 vs. Spain 24...same time period.

The next worse country is Turkey; and Russia who you might expect to be a brutal violator of the Human Right proves itself to have been the subject of unfair media judgment and prejudice. Russia had only 197 violations in the same period.

Italy - 1,264 Russia - 197

Italy can not be proud. They can not blame these things on bad press, or unfair evaluation, or even on the crazy Americans. This comes from a European High Court to which Italy belongs and it shines the light of disgrace on the Italian justice system....


Numbers come from here....

http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/E447EC37-0BE4-488C-8AB5-E9460C5B924F/0/Table19992006ENG.pdf

I expect the real number of violations to be far higher. For example its doubtful the European High Court will ever even look at the case against Amanda Knox. So this will likely be a case that goes uncounted even though Knox's Human rights are clearly violated. Almost 4 years to get to a 1st appeal, a year detained w/o charge, no bail granted when bail is normal in a case like this. No fair trial is certain reading decisions made by Massei that speculate and conjure rather than decide based on evidence and facts. A prosecutor convicted of official abuse of office allowed to continue in his position where he repeats his crimes... so I expect my original numbers of 15 times worse may be close. YMMV

 

[Justinian2]

Actually I was speaking off the top of my head...Italy is only 6 1/2 times worse than Russia. And no I am speaking about sheer numbers of actual Human Rights violations recorded by the court. I expect the real numbers of violations are much higher as most violations never see the High Court.
I am taking this information from an article I wrote called "A Court On Trial In Italyl" an excerpt follows.

[...]

In order to eliminate the human rights violations in the world, the guilter types have to join the cause MUCH, MUCH more quickly. More than anything else, that's what is the most discouraging part - how long it took the guilters to change their course. Some of you were WAY too patient with the guilters. And still they didn't change with the information and facts. However, there were also some moderators that enabled the guilters.

I had a dream thirty years in which God came to me to answer a prayer in which I asked him if mankind had a chance to save himself from nuclear war. God said: "Mankind has to learn at a faster rate". That was when the alarm clock went off and the dream ended. Sorry. Never got the complete answer.

But I know what he meant.

 

[Mary_H]

Coincidentally...

It's the oddest thing. Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" is TOTALLY stuck in my head right now.

"Dylan performed the song live for the first time within days of its release, when he appeared at the Newport Folk Festival on July 25, 1965."

Maybe Bob Dylan was psychic 46 years into the future.

 

[RandyN]

I predict that Mignini will slip out the back door and quietly retire. Stefanoni is the chosen one. That is as it should be. Little known facts about her are disturbing in this case. She seems to be a one woman prosecution T1000 in this case. She made the call to not allow the pathologist access to the body so that he could take a temperature and do a physical exam in order to nail down a more accurate TOD. He was forced to stand around an extra 18 hours waiting for her to arrive from Rome. Stefanoni led the on site examinations. Stefanoni led the prosecutors planning meetings (according to Darkness Descending) uggh...sorry for that reference. Stefanoni led the lab investigations. Anyone else catching the pattern here?

Is it any wonder she was unable to free herself from the suspect centered bias she was so obviously guilty of?

She belongs in jail along with Mignini and Monica and slappy Ficura errrr Rita.

I predict no one will serve even one day for the sins of this case.

Its not only Italy that does this. The Jaycee Lee Dugard case were the little girl was taken and held captive for 18 years by a known sex offender is an example of US justice shame. The nut that took her was a repeat offender on long term probation early released from a 50 year rape conviction. He was visited 60 times by probation officers in those 18 years and not one officer saved this little girl. The neighbors reported little girls in this predators back yard....nothing. They talked to a little girl …my brothers child he said…his brother never had children. This is so worse than 4 years in jail but both cases are shameful.

In the early days after her rescue (due to campus police concern) the probation department of Calif gave themselves medals for finally finding this (now 29 year old) who had two children with this rapist. Imagine? Its so like the Perugia police giving themselves medals...
Later California quietly paid Jaycee Dugard 20 million dollars for failure by the probation department to protect and discover her. I wonder if they had to give back the medals?

 

[Mary_H]

I predict that Mignini will slip out the back door and quietly retire. Stefanoni is the chosen one. That is as it should be. Little known facts about her are disturbing in this case. She seems to be a one woman prosecution T1000 in this case. She made the call to not allow the pathologist access to the body so that he could take a temperature and do a physical exam in order to nail down a more accurate TOD. He was forced to stand around an extra 18 hours waiting for her to arrive from Rome. Stefanoni led the on site examinations. Stefanoni led the prosecutors planning meetings (according to Darkness Descending) uggh...sorry for that reference. Stefanoni led the lab investigations. Anyone else catching the pattern here?

Is it any wonder she was unable to free herself from the suspect centered bias she was so obviously guilty of?

She belongs in jail along with Mignini and Monica and slappy Ficura errrr Rita.

I predict no one will serve even one day for the sins of this case.

Its not only Italy that does this. The Jaycee Lee Dugard case were the little girl was taken and held captive for 18 years by a known sex offender is an example of US justice shame. The nut that took her was a repeat offender on long term probation early released from a 50 year rape conviction. He was visited 60 times by probation officers in those 18 years and not one officer saved this little girl. The neighbors reported little girls in this predators back yard....nothing. They talked to a little girl …my brothers child he said…his brother never had children. This is so worse than 4 years in jail but both cases are shameful.

In the early days after her rescue (due to campus police concern) the probation department of Calif gave themselves medals for finally finding this (now 29 year old) who had two children with this rapist. Imagine? Its so like the Perugia police giving themselves medals...
Later California quietly paid Jaycee Dugard 20 million dollars for failure by the probation department to protect and discover her. I wonder if they had to give back the medals?

While I certainly agree with your take on the Jaycee Dugard case, Randy, I don't agree with your take on who is responsible for Stefanoni's mistakes. I don't think we have support for the argument that she made the call to not allow the pathologist access to the body. Here is a quote from the Rolling Stone interview with Mignini:

"When I ask Mignini whether he regrets any decisions he made during the Kercher case, he will name only one. It was the very first decision that he made. When he arrived at the crime scene he asked the chief forensics expert, Patrizia Stefanoni, whether she had taken Kercher's body temperature, a reliable indicator of time of death. Stefanoni, Mignini says, was worried that doing so might contaminate the body and advised that they wait until other testing had been done. The temperature was not taken until November 3rd....."

We know from the Massei report, though, that Stefanoni arrived at the scene a number of hours after Mignini, and that Lalli said he was told when he first got there at 2 p.m. not to take the temperature of the body. I can't see Mignini calling Stefanoni on the phone and asking her what to do with the body (although I suppose it's possible). Also, the temperature may not have been taken until 18 hours after the death, but Stefanoni and Lalli were face to face by dinnertime on the 2nd. (Cites here.)

Mignini, not Stefanoni, was in charge. My speculation is that Lalli said he was going to take the body's temperature and Mignini mistakenly ordered him to hold off until Stefanoni got there. Whether there was any more communication about taking the temperature after Stefanoni arrived remains unknown. It could be that Stefanoni thought it had been done, and Lalli thought Stefanoni would take care of it. In other words, Stefanoni might have been completely oblivious to this aspect of the investigation, while Mignini is using it as another opportunity to transfer blame from himself onto her.

In my opinion, Stefanoni is a liar and a cheat, but she is not a leader. And she certainly can't run as fast as a T1000.

 

[Katody Matrass]

54 mistakes that could free Knox
Cop fumbles caught on film

There were gasps of disbelief as the court was shown video footage of two cops picking up the clasp, passing it from hand to hand, dropping it, picking it up again and placing it on the floor.

writes Bob Graham from Perugia.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Looks like Saturday is going to be the day. Given the atmosphere in court yesterday and the open hostility even before, I'm sure the experts will be very well prepared for the fight.


Reuters:

Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kercher family, said the evidence provided by Vecchiotti and Conti was not conclusive.

"I hope, I am certain and trust that on Saturday we will be able to clarify in court the fact that they did not follow the original investigation and therefore did not follow the profound exchange of dialogue between various consultants and once again we will remind of the principal factors in this case," he said.

I can't wait to know what are those principal factors. It's not the DNA, it's not Curatolo. What is it then?

 

[Mary_H]

Looks like Saturday is going to be the day. Given the atmosphere in court yesterday and the open hostility even before, I'm sure the experts will be very well prepared for the fight.


Reuters:

Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kercher family, said the evidence provided by Vecchiotti and Conti was not conclusive.

"I hope, I am certain and trust that on Saturday we will be able to clarify in court the fact that they did not follow the original investigation and therefore did not follow the profound exchange of dialogue between various consultants and once again we will remind of the principal factors in this case," he said.

I can't wait to know what are those principal factors. It's not the DNA, it's not Curatolo. What is it then?

Ooh, a profound exchange of dialogue between various consultants. That sounds important.

 

[RoseMontague]

Looks like Saturday is going to be the day. Given the atmosphere in court yesterday and the open hostility even before, I'm sure the experts will be very well prepared for the fight.


Reuters:

Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kercher family, said the evidence provided by Vecchiotti and Conti was not conclusive.

"I hope, I am certain and trust that on Saturday we will be able to clarify in court the fact that they did not follow the original investigation and therefore did not follow the profound exchange of dialogue between various consultants and once again we will remind of the principal factors in this case," he said.

I can't wait to know what are those principal factors. It's not the DNA, it's not Curatolo. What is it then?

Gots to be the large bag, imo. Maybe the pizza.

Mixed blood: They will act like this has been proven when in fact it is just silly.

Bathmat print: Same as above. Maybe the judge could select some 3rd graders to make a guess as to a match

Staged Break-in: They will again act like this is proven when the truth of the matter is they did not even disprove the defense theory much less prove theirs. The elephant in the room is the glass splatter pattern.

Luminol blobs, footprints, and shoe-prints: No proof when they were made, who made them, and with what they were made of.

Mr Memory and the Miracle Ear lady: It is to laugh.

The only real thing left is the contradictory statements which is the only legit evidence against RS and AK, imo.

The defense, OTOH, is still left with the computer evidence that may yet prove an alibi.

 

[RoseMontague]

Frank's post on the hearing is up and is a must read for what C&V covered in court. I have to tell you Frank makes this understandable even for me.


http://perugiashock.com/2011/07/25/scientists-conti-and-vecchiotti-attack-the-police/

Stefano Conti showed the movements inside the house, from the video of November 2. He pointed out that while the biologists were collecting the evidence, any sort of non scientific people –in a sweater, in a coat– were walking around, passing from room to room. People who looked not to really have a function, a purpose, a discipline.

Conti was particularly struck by one person who was using his foot to indicate something beside the body. Or by another person who at one point said ‘it’s all absurd… disorganization beyond belief’ (and if they say that…). Or by the notorious opening of the door downstairs with kicks, ending up with the explosion of the glass.

The forensic people, then: suits half opened; evidence grabbed with the hands, even when they had tweezers in their other hand; gloves not changed; up to three stains (even if close to each other) collected with one buffer; evidence stored into plastic bags; blood traces completely removed; gloves and shoe covers not changed; a garment shacked in the air by Stefanoni. For December 18, then, even the re-appearing piece of bra, the main evidence, was collected with dirty gloves.

 

[RoseMontague]

Time for a Sarah Scazzi update and for me a rant on the connection that I see between the Kercher and Scazzi cases. This is just a fantastic article:

http://albatros-volandocontrovento.blogspot.com/2011/07/sarah-scazzi-nessuno-vuole-difendere.html

The main premise is how Michele Misseri can't find a lawyer to represent him. He has had a few that are either under investigation or went screaming for the hills. It seems nobody wants to represent a man who is free and has served the time for what he has only been charged with even if found guilty simply because he still insists he committed the murder rather than what he is charged with (cover up/hiding the body). What if some judge somewhere decides to believe this guy and he ends up serving 30 years. What lawyer wants on his resume a case where a man is free and only charged with a small crime goes to jail for 30 years? Even now Michele writes confessions that the judge will not read that are called waste paper. Unbelievable.

The article talks about a precedent but I think the real precedent is missed in the article and is the real connection to the Kercher case. The Italian people, and cops by way of the media don't want a man to be guilty of such a crime, it is much more interesting and believable and good theater if it is really a female that is at the center of these things. Who can blame poor old Michele, he was just trying to protect his wife and daughter, he was deceived by them. Sabrina was not really best friends with Sarah, there had to be some female jealously and scorn there. And Sabrina's Mom helped, of course she did. No evidence, doesn't matter, invent something out of thin air.

In the Kercher case, Rudy just wanted a little sex and wanted to have a good time. It is Amanda's fault for dragging that kitchen utensil into the situation and manipulating foolish Raffi into helping. Amanda is the evil one, the manipulator, the cause of all the troubles.
The men are just silly, foolish children deceived by the terrible female. Of course, men are blameless, we all know the true cause of things. It's those Females.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Frank's post on the hearing is up and is a must read for what C&V covered in court. I have to tell you Frank makes this understandable even for me.


http://perugiashock.com/2011/07/25/scientists-conti-and-vecchiotti-attack-the-police/

Great writing!

Interesting that Stefanoni did another quantification of the knife samples on December 17. I wonder if the date is significant? And why did she suddenly repeat the test at all, after more then a month?

 

[RoseMontague]

Latest from TJMK

Might Today’s Testimony Give Sollecito More Of An Advantage Than Knox?

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Jose H. Crisco
Sounds like they are now OK with letting the man walk as long as they get to keep the evil female. Is this going to be the prosecution strategy as well?

 

[Matthew Best]

Was it Kevin who called it "cargo cult" evidence collecting? It seems they've seen it done somewhere so they know you have to wear white suits and put things in bags, but that's about it.

What a joke.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no such animal

Latest from TJMK

Might Today’s Testimony Give Sollecito More Of An Advantage Than Knox?

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Jose H. Crisco
Sounds like they are now OK with letting the man walk as long as they get to keep the evil female. Is this going to be the prosecution strategy as well?

RoseMontague,

Well the evil fox was the one with the "mixed blood," according to TJfMK: ". Those mixed-blood traces in the bathroom and corridor and Filomena’s room are of Knox’s blood mixed with Meredith’s, not Sollecito’s, and those appear to be her footprints revealed with luminol on the floor." There is no mixed blood in this case. Period. End of Story.

 

[RoseMontague]

I saw on IIP where there is mention that the Knox family is understanding that after Saturday then the break just comes closing arguments and a decision by the end of September. It is hard for me to comprehend that the computer alibi evidence in the appeal will not be examined by an independent expert.

Unless the court feels that the reasonable doubt threshold has already been exceeded?

 

[Onofarar]

Newsweek has hardly a clue

Here is the Daily Beast article (No Barbie Nadeau mention?)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats...t/cheat-sheet+(The+Daily+Beast+-+Cheat+Sheet)

In the quoted article Newsweek refers to a statement they attribute to the DEFENSE attorneys. Anyone with any understanding of the case would realize the statement was from Maresca.
The statement was as follows: "The Kercher family is very worried over this inquisitorial atmosphere around the serious job done during the investigation."

 

[Diocletus]

I saw on IIP where there is mention that the Knox family is understanding that after Saturday then the break just comes closing arguments and a decision by the end of September. It is hard for me to comprehend that the computer alibi evidence in the appeal will not be examined by an independent expert.

Unless the court feels that the reasonable doubt threshold has already been exceeded?

The court must decide "not guilty" at this point. The court cannot decide to re-examine just three pieces of evidence, have them all blow up in most spectacular fashion, and then go against the advice of its own experts in returning a guilty verdict. Otherwise, the whole exercise would appear farcical and Hellmann would be the joke. Won't happen.

It is curious that the court has not examined computers and TOD, which in combination would create an alibi amounting to a finding of "actual innocence" as opposed to "not guilty." With Curatalo out of the way, I believe that the record does contain enough information to push TOD back to the 9:00 to 10:00 range (phones, Skype, food). This is certainly enough to establish a partial alibi, which, given that someone else has already been convicted of the murder, should be enough to acquit.

I would like to see the full computer evidence examined though, because it has the possibility to eliminate any suggestion of the "they could have done it but got away on a technicality" line that I'm sure the haters will adopt.

One problem, I think, is that it would be highly embarrassing for Italy if it turns out that not only are their forensics police complete nincompoops, but their IT technicians are idiots who almost destroyed proof-positive of actual innocence. The first group performed passive acts of negligence, but the second acted affirmatively by destroying exculpatory evidence. Maybe Hellmann wants to let the defendants go without doing too much damage to too many reputations.