Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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One would certainly think that there would be an effort to study, authenticate, and publish Mengele's diaries in any real historical search for the truth regarding what actully happened at Auchwitz. After all, Dr. Mengele was allegedly one of the main players in the mass extermination. If it turnes out that he was a victim of multiple 'Zisblattings' in his absence regarding the legendary cruelty and madness, that would change the whole picture.

Now, two days ago, we find out that these papers were for sale at auction and no official historical agency buys them, but rather an anonymous private collector. It certainly looks as if,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIv7W7rhx4

So, the Mengele diary is to be believed (so long as it fits your view of what it should say -- and it was in control and sold by his family for $300K), but we should question the memories, views, writings of survivors as inherently suspect? See any consistency problem here?
 
No, the description doesn't make it sound easy. For one thing, Wiernik mentions a lot of work, enough that Clayton Moore would doubt it was possible, involving excavators and the stacking of RR ties into tall structures and the piling of many corpses on these grates. By inference, large numbers of people would have had to have had expended a great deal of effort to do these things on a large scale.

As to how the ignition was accomplished, Wiernik was silent, from which we can safely conclude not much.

"Attributed"? Are you doubting that the quotation is from Wiernik?

We can safely conclude from Wiernik's description of male vs female body burning that he doesn't know what he's talking about. His silence on the specifics of ignition would be consistent with somebody who never tried to set a pile of bodies on fire. It could also mean that he simply didn't provide an elaborate explanation here. It doesn't mean he never explained ignition in detail.

I don't doubt that the quote is Wiernik. It sounds like his style. But I didn't verify the quote myself. I am trusting that you quoted him accurately.
 
You need to get out more, or read, or something: people are capable of amazing things, they innovate, they come up with novel and unanticipated solutions to problems.

Then they should have no trouble explaining the details of how they accomplished these amazing things.
 
Then they should have no trouble explaining the details of how they accomplished these amazing things.

What is it that you are having trouble understanding, Dogzilla? Are you going to be satisfied some time prior to taking the experiment full scale and lighting fire to a pile of corpses just to prove to you that, yes, one can indeed burn people?
 
Now, two days ago, we find out that these papers were for sale at auction and no official historical agency buys them, but rather an anonymous private collector. It certainly looks as if
capitalism allows mostly free markets. Yes, that's what it looks like, in market economies, individual buyers and sellers are free to make deals and exchange items according to the terms of those deals.

Now, of course, my post had nothing to do with Gene's oddball interpretation of this free exchange of the diaries--his post going so far as to imply that the exchange was part of a suppression campaign. This strange suggestion of Gene's, which seems made in forgetfulness of how market exchange works, was made in response to a post of mine (that post on a different matter, a reiteration of my request that deniers offer at least something explaining the history of the hoaxing); by responding in this way, Gene implies that, in some manner, I approve of keeping this document from authentication and suppressing its widespread examination.

It is hard to know why Gene would make this point about suppression in reply to my post and think it okay to come off implying that I condone the suppression of the diary.

In any event, let me explain here that unlike Kues and Fauri, who have intuited and mind-read the diaries and somehow know what is in them, I do not know their contents. Nor would what I think they contain influence my opinion on whether they should be available or not. Nor am I about to speculate on the diaries' contents, nor to join Gene in declaring victory. As with any other document--the British decodes come to mind--I would hope that these do become available to the wider public. Lord knows, the research has been assisted tremendously by the opening of eastern archives in the wake of the Cold War, although it is hard to imagine Mengele's after-the-fact thoughts having remotely the importance. In any event, I am more interested in contemporary than in retrospective written materials, treading very carefully with victims' memoirs, for example. For this reason, I am at the very most mildly curious about these diaries, I have to admit. But by all means, recognizing the constraints imposed by private ownership, it would be good for interested people to be able to read them.
 
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Then they should have no trouble explaining the details of how they accomplished these amazing things.
They do, if we only listen to them and give them a fair hearing. Try, for starters, the NMT courtroom testimony of the Einsatzgruppen leaders, first of all Otto Ohlendorf (come to think of it, with Ohlendorf reading from his interrogations and both his IMT and NMT testimony is illuminating). Invigorating material. But you have to be open minded for it to make any sense. When someone like Clayton Moore sets out with all sorts of mental barriers about what can and can't be done, he shows that he isn't receptive, for example, to Ohlendorf's narration of his accomplishments and he goes nowhere, learns nothing, doesn't grow as a person. Goebbels, in his diaries, and Himmler, in his Posen and Sontfhofen speeches for example, also have very interesting things to day, as did Speer, even if he weaseled a great deal, about Nazi innovations and accomplishments. There are many more, but these guys give a nice start. if you will listen to them, of course, and given them a chance to tell their story.
 
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We can safely conclude from Wiernik's description of male vs female body burning that he doesn't know what he's talking about. His silence on the specifics of ignition would be consistent with somebody who never tried to set a pile of bodies on fire. It could also mean that he simply didn't provide an elaborate explanation here. It doesn't mean he never explained ignition in detail.

I don't doubt that the quote is Wiernik. It sounds like his style. But I didn't verify the quote myself. I am trusting that you quoted him accurately.
You are correct on two points: (1) I quoted Wiernik accurately, or as best I am able, in this case using copy/paste due to my proclivity to mistype. And (2) individuals like Wiernik can make poor witnesses for certain facets of what they witness, e.g., technical details, points which they consider unimportant at the time, actions which they do not focus on because of their focus on other actions. Their weak testimony in some regards does not, of course, mean that in other aspects their testimony is also weak. In fact, as noted upthread, historians use many witnesses, situated differently, partly for this very reason, that individuals have limits due to situation, perspective, focus, and prior knowledge. So historians use multiple sources and compare them (testimonies, documents, etc.) one with the other, and compare across types of evidence, to make judgments about witnesses, their strengths and weaknesses, as well as to draw conclusions about events. All this is so elementary it is hard to imagine its needing explanation or even repetition amongst literate adults. But here we are.
 
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Then they should have no trouble explaining the details of how they accomplished these amazing things.

The 1961 Civil Defense handbook describes the exact same process as used at Treblinka to do large scale removal of corpses after a nuclear attack. It also stresses the need to do this in a secluded area to avoid further damaging the moral of survivors.

For further details I refer you to the 1965 doco The War Game

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059894/
 
The history of the hoaxing. How the hoax developed and captured the minds of so many people. Who was involved. How the hoaxsters worked, exchanged ideas, altered documents, tarted up evidence, staged photographs. When and where major accomplishments took place. The full story. All the evidence--lies exposed, the Jews behind the hoaxing, meeting notes, receipts and orders, memoranda, confidential notes, all the secrets of the hoax. Who will write it--Saggy? LGR? Dogzilla? Gene Alley?
 
The history of the hoaxing. How the hoax developed and captured the minds of so many people. Who was involved. How the hoaxsters worked, exchanged ideas, altered documents, tarted up evidence, staged photographs. When and where major accomplishments took place. The full story. All the evidence--lies exposed, the Jews behind the hoaxing, meeting notes, receipts and orders, memoranda, confidential notes, all the secrets of the hoax. Who will write it--Saggy? LGR? Dogzilla? Gene Alley?

At last your're asking the right questions.

"The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of the European Jews", by NorthWestern University prof Arthur Butz. Butz gives the names of individuals and organizations that created the hoax, and how they did it.

Prime players - Rabbi Stephen Wise, involved in both the WW I hoax and the WW II hoax. In the US govt, Henry Morgenthau, who headed the War Refugee Board. Mickey Marcus, who headed the War Crimes Division at Nuremberg, etc, etc., etc. Nothing would have been possible without the active participation of the New York Times.

Pick a chapter, read it, ..... there it is.

As we've seen, the hoax goes back to 1906. And, hoax propaganda was more or less constant in the NYT throughout WW II, but if you want the turning point that marked the active public participation of the US govt in the hoax, that is the publication on Nov. 26, 1944, of a report generated by the World Jewish Congress and published by the War Refugee Board headed by Morgenthau. This document committed the US govt. to the hoax and many of its particulars, the gas chambers, the numbers, etc., and was based solely on 'eyewitness testimony' of unnamed 'escaped prisoners'.
 
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At last your're asking the right questions.

"The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of the European Jews", by NorthWestern University prof Arthur Butz. Butz gives the names of individuals and organizations that created the hoax, and how they did it.

Prime players - Rabbi Stephen Wise, involved in both the WW I hoax and the WW II hoax. In the US govt, Henry Morgenthau, who headed the War Refugee Board. Mickey Marcus, who headed the War Crimes Division at Nuremberg, etc, etc., etc. Nothing would have been possible without the active participation of the New York Times.

Pick a chapter, read it, ..... there it is.

As we've seen, the hoax goes back to 1906. And, hoax propaganda was more or less constant in the NYT throughout WW II, but if you want the turning point that marked the active public participation of the US govt in the hoax, that is the publication on Nov. 26, 1944, of a report generated by the World Jewish Congress and published by the War Refugee Board headed by Morgenthau. This document committed the US govt. to the hoax and many of its particulars, the gas chambers, the numbers, etc., and was based solely on 'eyewitness testimony' of unnamed 'escaped prisoners'.
Scroll back a page or two. This is not a proper history but an episodic collection of random points. We dealt with its inadequacies just a couple days ago. I want a proper historical narrative, not this collection of mistaken musings. Try again. And in your own words. Not a random point, but a narrative explaining the evolution of this historical phenomenon. Please.
 
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Read the book. It's about 500 pages. Take your time, you might learn something.
Scroll back. I've already read it; I was in a book club. The book was terrible--laughable even. And has been thoroughly shredded. Stop hiding: set down the history of hoaxing in your own words.
 
The history of the hoaxing. How the hoax developed and captured the minds of so many people. Who was involved. How the hoaxsters worked, exchanged ideas, altered documents, tarted up evidence, staged photographs. When and where major accomplishments took place. The full story. All the evidence--lies exposed, the Jews behind the hoaxing, meeting notes, receipts and orders, memoranda, confidential notes, all the secrets of the hoax. Who will write it--Saggy? LGR? Dogzilla? Gene Alley?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Lets start with the indubitable physical evidence - the absence of underground flues at Krema II and III. Surely the most reasonable explanation for this absence that these meeting notes, orders, memoranda etc must have existed - even if they are collected in no publically available archive.

Why would Hoaxsters release the evidential trail that shows their dishonesty and their criminality?
 
At last your're asking the right questions.

"The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of the European Jews", by NorthWestern University prof Arthur Butz. Butz gives the names of individuals and organizations that created the hoax, and how they did it.

Prime players - Rabbi Stephen Wise, involved in both the WW I hoax and the WW II hoax. In the US govt, Henry Morgenthau, who headed the War Refugee Board. Mickey Marcus, who headed the War Crimes Division at Nuremberg, etc, etc., etc. Nothing would have been possible without the active participation of the New York Times.

Pick a chapter, read it, ..... there it is.

As we've seen, the hoax goes back to 1906. And, hoax propaganda was more or less constant in the NYT throughout WW II, but if you want the turning point that marked the active public participation of the US govt in the hoax, that is the publication on Nov. 26, 1944, of a report generated by the World Jewish Congress and published by the War Refugee Board headed by Morgenthau. This document committed the US govt. to the hoax and many of its particulars, the gas chambers, the numbers, etc., and was based solely on 'eyewitness testimony' of unnamed 'escaped prisoners'.


http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Nor is it evidence of evidence. Shall we take this as an admission that you have absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence of this huge plot to surpress the TruthTM?

Lets start with the indubitable physical evidence - the absence of underground flues at Krema II and III. Surely the most reasonable explanation for this absence that these meeting notes, orders, memoranda etc must have existed - even if they are collected in no publically available archive.

Do you have evidence that supports your claim of "no underground flues"? No, going there and not finding any doesn't count. Why? Because that would be taking your word for it, and I never take the word of a Nazi-apologist.

Why would Hoaxsters release the evidential trail that shows their dishonesty and their criminality?

Good question. Could it be that the evidential trail that "shows their dishonesty and their criminality" has been misinterpreted by a bunch of loud ideologues with little to no training in any relevant fields?

Surely not! :eye-poppi
 
Do you have evidence that supports your claim of "no underground flues"? No, going there and not finding any doesn't count. Why? Because that would be taking your word for it, and I never take the word of a Nazi-apologist.

Difficult to prove a negative. Can you prove that there isn't a giant purple italian speaking elephant resident in the Krema I gas chamber? No, going there and not finding her doesn't count.

Krema II is has been opened up and no one can point to underground flues. No one can point to underground flues in Krema V. Krema IV is less intact but no one can point to underground flues. Krema III is both more intact and less accessible, however underground flues should be detectable using remote sensing technology.

But no one will ever detect them because they don't exist.
 
But no one will ever detect them because they don't exist.

How do you know? Do you have evidence that they don't exist? And no, this isn't asking you to prove a negative. This is asking you to back up the crap you're spewing.

It's good to hear you admit that you have no evidence of any massive plot by anyone to cover up anything holocaust related.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Lets start with the indubitable physical evidence - the absence of underground flues at Krema II and III. Surely the most reasonable explanation for this absence that these meeting notes, orders, memoranda etc must have existed - even if they are collected in no publically available archive.

Why would Hoaxsters release the evidential trail that shows their dishonesty and their criminality?
I want the evidence for the hoaxing. Not another referral to a nitwit book. Or another supposed debunking of Rabbi Wise, as though the genocide is encapsulated in his exchanges or a list of names without explanation, as though the names themselves demonstrate a case. Something that explains how this thing developed and spread and shows how Hilberg, for example. and Angrick & Klein and Longerich and Engelking and both Freidlanders and so on tarted things up, spread lies, deceived their readers. And, again, not a one-off swipe at this or that point but a coherent narrative telling how this thing was spun up and made persuasive.

Surely the hoaxsters are not so good as to completely cover their tracks: for instance, they apparently forgot to forge up a Hitler order. Get cracking, and stop ducking this simple request.
 
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I want the evidence for the hoaxing. Not another referral to a nitwit book. Or another supposed debunking of Rabbi Wise, as though the genocide is encapsulated in his exchanges or a list of names without explanation, as though the names themselves demonstrate a case. Something that explains how this thing developed and spread and shows how Hilberg, for example. and Angrick & Klein and Longerich and Engelking and both Freidlanders and so on tarted things up, spread lies, deceived their readers. And, again, not a one-off swipe at this or that point but a coherent narrative telling how this thing was spun up and made persuasive.

Surely the hoaxsters are not so good as to completely cover their tracks: for instance, they apparently forgot to forge up a Hitler order. Get cracking, and stop ducking this simple request.


I wasn't aware that MIT handed out multiple degrees to nit wits.
 
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