Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Gene Alley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Alley
I would prefer having the contents of this 3500 page diary made public rather than taking Posner's, Ware's or Panagopulos' synopsis. I would also like to see the earlier writings of Mengele which were written between 1945 and 1960. I wonder where they are and why they haven't been released to the public and made a part of the extensive holocaust record?

Off the record?
The FBI warehouse for important stuff the public can't find out about.

Or perhaps the double secret holocaust storage facility.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p--5_Faurisson.html

Fear of Revealing the Documents


"In 1986 Gerald L. Posner, a Jewish lawyer from the United States, published a book entitled Mengele: The Complete Story (in collaboration with John Ware, New York, McGraw-Hill). The title is misleading because the author obviously conceals what Mengele happened to write, after the war, about Auschwitz. On page 48, it is said that, according to his son Rolf, Mengele appeared to be "quite unrepentant and felt no shame" about the years he spent at Auschwitz. As far as I arn concerned, I am inclined to believe that Mengele felt neither repentance nor shame since he had nothing to repent or feel shame about.

I am convinced that his personal papers fully confirm the Revisionist position and that, for that reason, the Exterminationists, who were able to get hold of his papers with the help of Mengele's son Rolf, refuse to divulge their contents ("In Rolf's apartment were two bags filled with more than thirty pounds of Mengele's personal writings," page 302). I am thinking in particular about one piece entitled "Fiat Lux" (mentioned on page 316); the title leads me to think that in it Mengele shed some light on what really happened at Auschwitz. I am not alone in thinking that Posner, Rolf Mengele and the whole group of supposed experts or researchers are hiding some documents from us. We read in Holocaust and Genocide Studies (Vol. 2, No. 1, 1987, page 9):

Had [Mengele], who did not repent a thing, really not written anything about these decisive years? And, if he has written about these years, who has destroyed or hidden these notes?"

 

[Ignorantbystander]

And everybody with a basic knowledge of chemistry knows that methane burns very slowly.

so...?

Methane production from decomposition must be one of the reasons rotting corpses burn so easily.

I think rather dehydration.

It's probably the reason why spontaneous human combustion occurs.

???

(That's sarcasm in case you missed it)

Yeah I missed it, since I don't see any relevance to the subject we're discussing.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

That's about as ridiculous as the description I remember.

Yes, because everybody knows that it's impossible to burn large quantities of bodies the way he describes it.

You say they burned animals in a similar way in the UK?
yeah, but you can't compare human corpses with animals now, can you?

ok, maybe you can, but for some vague reason you'd still have a problem with the timespan and space. And of course there should be traces.

oh they found traces. So? burning bodies like that is impossible to begin with.
and so on, and so on....

 

[MG1962]

I would prefer having the contents of this 3500 page diary made public rather than taking Posner's, Ware's or Panagopulos' synopsis. I would also like to see the earlier writings of Mengele which were written between 1945 and 1960. I wonder where they are and why they haven't been released to the public and made a part of the extensive holocaust record?

From my understanding the family put the writings up for auction. The buyer apparently represented a museum, so chances are high we will see something eventually.

I believe the family has been restricting access to the documents to try and drive up the price, even Panagopulos admits most of the diart is very hum drum

 

[LemmyCaution]

History of the hoaxing? Where is it? You can even stick in the bit about Mengele's diaries being in an FBI vault or Gene's double secret holocaust storage facility. But let's get to summing up that hoaxing narrative.

I find it only a little funny that neither Kues (his typical footnoted speculations) nor Fauri knows what is Mengele's diaries, but as Fauri puts it both are

convinced that his personal papers fully confirm the Revisionist position.

That's how things are done, denier-style: conclude first, find out later.

 

[Dogzilla]

Which was not the question. Of course. The request was for someone to produce a description of corpse burning caused "where somebody tosses a match on the carcass . . . and the carcass burst into flames and quickly burned completely to ash." To put the question another way, was your example a strawman, which you made up to make Nazi cremation practices sound ridiculous, or was it taken from somewhere?

That was a hypothetical--IF the carcass of a non-human animal could be shown to burn easily, I would not be so quick to dismiss those who believe humans burn easily as gullible. I wasn't suggesting that a survivor or perpetrator had described the incineration process as simply tossing a match on top of a big pile of bodies.

Although, the quote you earlier attributed to Wiernik describes the mechanics of the incineration process as thus:

This is the way in which he got the inferno started: He put into operation an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time. A fire grate made of railroad tracks was placed on concrete foundations 100 to 150 meters in length. The workers piled the corpses on the grate and set them on fire.

That sure makes it sound like lighting a pile of bodies on fire is pretty easy. Maybe not as easy as tossing a match on top of the pile, but pretty easy, eh?

And, BTW, I like the part about male corpses not burning easily, even when soaked in gasoline but female corpses are flammable enough to be used like kindling.

And the part about work stopping and the camouflage efforts against aerial observation is a little light on details.

 

[LemmyCaution]

That was a hypothetical-- . . .

Thank you, a hyperbolic hypothetical, I know the gambit well. I thought so.

 

[Dogzilla]

So finally we're there... yes it's possible to burn large quantities of corpses on pyres in the way described by survivors. But now you move the goalposts to time, space and traces.

Moving the goalposts? I'm sorry if I blindsided you by bringing up the various physical parameters that effect the task at hand. Yes, you do need to consider the amount of space that was available. Yes, the length of time determines how much can be accomplished as well. I gather you have no project management experience?

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . I gather you have no project management experience?

I hope we are not about to learn about life from a PMP . . .

 

[LemmyCaution]

Although, the quote you earlier attributed to Wiernik describes the mechanics of the incineration process as thus:


That sure makes it sound like lighting a pile of bodies on fire is pretty easy. Maybe not as easy as tossing a match on top of the pile, but pretty easy, eh?

No, the description doesn't make it sound easy. For one thing, Wiernik mentions a lot of work, enough that Clayton Moore would doubt it was possible, involving excavators and the stacking of RR ties into tall structures and the piling of many corpses on these grates. By inference, large numbers of people would have had to have had expended a great deal of effort to do these things on a large scale.

As to how the ignition was accomplished, Wiernik was silent, from which we can safely conclude not much.

"Attributed"? Are you doubting that the quotation is from Wiernik?

 

[Saggy]

Eliahu Rosenberg - In his testimony in Jerusalem, at the Demjanjuk trial, he also persisted in his convictions:

"In Treblinka we learned that little children burn better than grown men. All it takes is a match to light them. That's why the Germans, damn them, ordered us to put the children in the pit first."(77)

http://www.codoh.com/found/fndtreb.html

 

[LemmyCaution]

Eliahu Rosenberg - In his testimony in Jerusalem, at the Demjanjuk trial, he also persisted in his convictions:

"In Treblinka we learned that little children burn better than grown men. All it takes is a match to light them. That's why the Germans, damn them, ordered us to put the children in the pit first."(77)

http://www.codoh.com/found/fndtreb.html

You didn't quote this further from Mr Rosenberg:

After Himmler inspected the camp he ordered the burning of all the bodies lying in the pit [...] For this purpose, two iron rails were placed on the ground parallel to each other, and the bodies that were dug out of the pit with excavators were stacked on top of each other like fire logs. It frequently happened that the corpses, especially those just freshly killed, didn't burn well, and so we had to pour gasoline over them [...] At that time we had only one burning site, and of course that wasn't enough, since we couldn't burn more than a hundred bodies a day. An SS-Oberscharfhrer, Herbert Floss by name, was brought in from the neighboring camp [...] He set up five or six burning sites and also introduced a new way to layer the bodies

An SS guard at Treblinka described matters this way: SS guard Heinrich Matthes said also

The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol.

 

[Saggy]

You didn't quote this further from Mr Rosenberg:

I didn't quote the best part, where Rosenberg identified Demjanuk as Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. What makes this stand out amongst the totality of absurd holohoax testimony is that Rosenberg had testified in a previous investigation that he was present when Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka was killed in the camp uprising ! He had returned from the dead ! Moreover, the Israeli court knew of Rosenberg's earlier testimony but didn't see any problem with it. The holohoax is the world's worst joke.

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, the description doesn't make it sound easy. For one thing, Wiernik mentions a lot of work, enough that Clayton Moore would doubt it was possible, involving excavators and the stacking of RR ties into tall structures and the piling of many corpses on these grates. By inference, large numbers of people would have had to have had expended a great deal of effort to do these things on a large scale.

As to how the ignition was accomplished, Wiernik was silent, from which we can safely conclude not much.

"Attributed"? Are you doubting that the quotation is from Wiernik?

Not unlike the set of a SYFY movie.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I didn't quote the best part, where Rosenberg identified Demjanuk as Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. What makes this stand out amongst the totality of absurd holohoax testimony is that Rosenberg had testified in a previous investigation that he was present when Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka was killed in the camp uprising ! He had returned from the dead ! Moreover, the Israeli court knew of Rosenberg's earlier testimony but didn't see any problem with it. The holohoax is the world's worst joke.

Still sticking up for the matchless liars, Lemmy?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Not unlike the set of a SYFY movie.

You need to get out more, or read, or something: people are capable of amazing things, they innovate, they come up with novel and unanticipated solutions to problems.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Still sticking up for the matchless liars, Lemmy?

Uh no, simply setting the record straight, as, on the topic of igniting fires, the witness had more to say than was quoted. Which doesn't make him right on every point. Just that quoting him selectively doesn't do the testimony he gave justice.

You haven't ever sat through a trial, have you? Or read the transcript of a court proceeding?

 

[Gene Alley]

History of the hoaxing? Where is it? You can even stick in the bit about Mengele's diaries being in an FBI vault or Gene's double secret holocaust storage facility. But let's get to summing up that hoaxing narrative.

I find it only a little funny that neither Kues (his typical footnoted speculations) nor Fauri knows what is Mengele's diaries, but as Fauri puts it both are That's how things are done, denier-style: conclude first, find out later.

One would certainly think that there would be an effort to study, authenticate, and publish Mengele's diaries in any real historical search for the truth regarding what actully happened at Auchwitz. After all, Dr. Mengele was allegedly one of the main players in the mass extermination. If it turnes out that he was a victim of multiple 'Zisblattings' in his absence regarding the legendary cruelty and madness, that would change the whole picture.

Now, two days ago, we find out that these papers were for sale at auction and no official historical agency buys them, but rather an anonymous private collector. It certainly looks as if,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIv7W7rhx4

 

[MG1962]

One would certainly think that there would be an effort to study, authenticate, and publish Mengele's diaries in any real historical search for the truth regarding what actully happened at Auchwitz. After all, Dr. Mengele was allegedly one of the main players in the mass extermination. If it turnes out that he was a victim of multiple 'Zisblattings' in his absence regarding the legendary cruelty and madness, that would change the whole picture.

Now, two days ago, we find out that these papers were for sale at auction and no official historical agency buys them, but rather an anonymous private collector. It certainly looks as if,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIv7W7rhx4

You are starting to argue like a 4 year old - Who decided to dispose of the documents this way - His family! What make Mengeles thoughts from 1960 to 1975 to important any museum or library to want to shell out 300,00 on documents literally sight unseen?

And who really cares about his opinion anyway - We have his medical records and films of his experiments to tell us about the reality he lived in

 

[Hans]

...but wait if we did have a copy of Mengele diary and it said things that supported the existence of the Holocaust - wouldn't you then state it was a forgery?