NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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You heard it here folks. If you don't believe in his kooky religion you are mentally ill.
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Moderated MLM Crap :(
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You heard it here folks. If you don't believe in his kooky religion you are mentally ill.
OF COURSE the Amway corporation is succesful. It has:
1). A captive market.
2). Salesmen who work for free and PAY to join.
Who wouldn't be successful in such circumstances?
But that's like saying that McDonald's or Nike's being successful is a reason to get a minimum-wage job there or work in a sweatshop. Scratch that: for many people that IS a rational decision, given their alternatives.
1). A captive market.
2). Salesmen who work for free and PAY to join.
Who wouldn't be successful in such circumstances?
But that's like saying that McDonald's or Nike's being successful is a reason to get a minimum-wage job there or work in a sweatshop. Scratch that: for many people that IS a rational decision, given their alternatives.
Do you find it ironic that he is saying he wants to sue me because I posted links to other people's opinions that Icerate claims they are false and damaging (without identifying what is false), yet here he states that I am clearly mentally ill because I think Amway is a bad idea, along with most of the rest of the civilized world.
Icerat goes so far to defend Amway that he extolls the virtues of the quality of Amway's toilet paper and calls Amway products "prestigious". Who's the cultist here?
The reason why I spend time blogging and exposing facts about Amway is because after I got out, I later found out about the lies told by upline and these lies were costing innocent people tons of money. I could not sit still with the same old leaders scamming their groups.
I decided to blog and expose the scam to people. In doing so, I have received threats. Icerat claims I made them up but due to a statcounter device I did pinpoint someone from Ontario Canada who did indeed make a threat to my family and Icerat wrote a liberal editorial from his blog claiming I made the whole thing up because he (Icerat) did not get a copy of the threat email. Kinda makes me think Icerat is orchestrating some of these efforts. Icerat also claimed that I blamed Amway IBOs for the threat which is 100% false.
Seriously, who does more harm? Someone providing real life data about an opportunity where you are likely to lose money, or someone who is constantly promoting a system/opportunity where you are nearly assured to lose money? The reality is you join Amway and participate in the functions, etc, you are almost assured to lose money. That is a fact that I will hang my hat on.
Icerat is fully indoctrinated. He's not even actively building the business in the last dozen years. If the business is so great, why hasn't he made it a priority to accomplish the Amway dream?
I saw first hand the damage it can cause when unethical leaders teach their garbage. I saw crossline go bankrupt, I saw two crossline lose their homes. Upline advised them on how long they could skip mortgage payments so they could attend the next big function. While the IBOs are somewhat culpable as well, they were doing what they believed was "in their best interest".
BTW, Icerat was labeled a "cyberbully" by an Amway employee on an Amway corporate forum because he wrote disparaging articles which were mostly false about me. Yet Icerat thinks I'm the one who needs help and is mentally ill?
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I find this typical of indoctrinated Amway defenders. They claim you are lying but do not state what was false or a lie.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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You don't think it's captive?
Tell me, why do you suppose this energy drink is so popular among Amway people, but virtually unheard of outside of Amway circles?
MLM may not be the best way to market merchandise, but it's very good at locking in the sales force as a consumer base. The program almost seems designed to circumvent the normal consumer purchasing decisions. Energy drinks are all the same. We tell you ours is better and cite some mumbo-jumbo to rationalize it, but that's just marketing. The others say they're the best too. You will buy our drink not because it's better or less expensive, but because you're already invested a bunch of your time and money with Amway, and you're feeling like a loser for not building up your business. You're going to be buying energy drinks anyway, so if you buy this one you will at least build up some PVP (or whatever it's called) and inch your upline a little bit closer to his $10 bonus. You're gonna buy this energy drink for the same reason you buy all this other crap, motor oil, cosmetics, vitamins, soaps...all because it's stuff you'd buy anyway, and you gotta show your faith in the system.
They may or may not have been proselytizing religion or politics, but they were certainly proselytizing. I heard a lot of talk about private jets and the lifestyle made possible by huge incomes. Nothing so crass as to talk very much about material possessions, they would couch it in terms that emphasize family and "living life on your terms".
That brings us back to what is being taught in these seminars. We saw in Mr. Duncan's bankruptcy papers that his path to riches was creating a company called Sharshela to produce energy drinks to be marketed through Amway. Do you think there was any part of that seminar that told the IBO's of that path to success?
In 2007 when Mr. Duncan was involved in bankruptcy (financial acumen?), it may very well be true that diamonds made less money from tools than from Amway, but not by choice. When I was an IBO in later 1990's, I was told in large audiences, that there was "ZERO" profit from the tools. When the internet exposed the lies, the upline adjusted their claims and all was forgotten. Whether it's tools or XS drinks, Mr. Duncan is likely telling his group they can get rich from Amway whch is not very honest. More likely you can get rich selling your downline tools and XS drinks. Do you really believe an up and coming downline IBO will ever exceed Mr. Duncan's earnings? If you believe that, I have Florida swamp land to sell.
By the way, if Mr. Duncan had so many assets, why didn't he liquidate and avoid chapter 7? Like usual, Icerat will have an off the wall explanation that nobody else undertsands.
icerat
Philosopher
How about because it doesn't fit any part of the definition?
Definition
Potential customers who are constrained to purchase a good or service from a particular supplier because of (1) shortages, (2) competitors' high prices, (3) lack of competition, (4) unique feature or benefit of the item, or (5) the seller owning the buying entity.
Lack of mass-market advertising, which is where most brand recognition comes from. Go down to your local store and look at all the energy drinks on sale. Unless you're a real energy drink aficionado I'll bet there's a whole bunch of them you've never really heard of.
Loyalty programs aren't exactly limited to MLM companies. And yes, they are effective. As already pointed out several times, the majority of the products are not purchased by end users who are promoting the business.
Do you actually do any research before you make supposed statements of fact like this? Things have changed (a little) now, but when it was launched XS was the only low calorie energy drink. You may have noticed, there's quite a demand for low cal drinks. XS also is the only one that has a wide range of flavours. Heck, Red Bull is illegal in same places due to it's ingredients, XS is not.
How do you reconcile this "theory" of yours with the fact that the majority of people who use Amway products aren't participating in the business model? I buy Amway products because I like them and think they're good value. Some I don't. I don't buy them.
There's no doubt some groups have pushed the "loyalty" aspect to unhealthy extremes. Indeed it was one reason a very large organisation got kicked out of Amway a few years ago. There's no evidence to support the idea that it is the norm or universal though.
As Quixtar data produced in Team vs Quixtar showed (by the plaintiff note), even ignoring retail customor volume, 75% of people buying Amway products were not participating in the compensation scheme.
I've listened to half of it now and haven't heard any of that yet, so can't really have been "a lot" now, can it? Or is the entire second half about that? I do love the way you have to reinterpret for the listener what they were actually talking about though, just to make sure you don't think they actually meant what they said! Of all the Diamonds I know, virtually all of them talk about "time freedom" is being the primary benefit, rather than material possessions.
So that $30+ million is assets outside Sharsela doesn't count as "rich". You set tough standards.
How do you think he could afford to set up Sarshela? He and the other owners were successful IBOs already when they set it up. Even so, if I have no money, but I build an Amway business and then use those profits to invest in other projects that make more money, isn't it ultimately my Amway business that lead to the success? Greg Norman is a multi-multi-millionaire more thanks to his various business ventures than golf. But if he hadn't been a successful golfer he never would have had them.
When I was showing the business plan one of the things we explained to people was a thing called "the cashflow quadrant" -
E|B
-+-
S|I
E=Employee
S=Self-employed/Small business
B=Business Owner (defined as a business that doesn't require their daily input)
I=Investor
I'd explain (amongst other stuff) how most of the truly wealthy are in the I quadrant - the are investors in a number of companies, either directly or through the share market. Most of them got that way by developing a B quadrant business and using the profits to move to I.
With Amway you can move from E to S (if you're not already in S), then to B, then use that extra time and money income to move to I.
I've a number of times heard "higher pins" talk about how the majority of their income comes these days comes from investments.
icerat
Philosopher
Oh yeah, right. That's like totally what I said
You don't "believe" in it, and I explicitly said I didn't think you were mentally ill. Do I need to reevaluate?
My diagnosis of those guys is based on their behaviour. (and don't forget, I was orginally a psychologist, so I'm not just "lay" diagnosing)
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Oh yeah, right. That's like totally what I said
You don't "believe" in it, and I explicitly said I didn't think you were mentally ill. Do I need to reevaluate?
Of course you never said belief. You still think you're involved in a business and not a cult masquerading as a business. This is my entire point, you don't understand what it is you are dealing with.
Icerat,
I don't know if I ever told you I've written some pieces about MLM (I'm a freelance writer). These were under contract and pro-MLM. I remember struggling to find some clear benefit I could write about. Since you haven't mentioned it, I thought I'd bring one up so you could add it to your armory.
What I came up with was Amway as business training. Undergoing the process teaches a great deal about sales, motivation and the work it takes to build a business. This comes as practical lessons in the real world -- as opposed to formal, abstract business school training. The experience itself has a value -- beyond the likely failure of any single IBO.
In the modern Internet environment, MLM's can also teach basic Internet marketing methods, SEO, website design and leveraging networks.
Looking at MLMs as instruction also sidesteps the failure issue. A failure, in this paradigm, is finding out that you are not good at this -- also something worth knowing.
I don't know if I ever told you I've written some pieces about MLM (I'm a freelance writer). These were under contract and pro-MLM. I remember struggling to find some clear benefit I could write about. Since you haven't mentioned it, I thought I'd bring one up so you could add it to your armory.
What I came up with was Amway as business training. Undergoing the process teaches a great deal about sales, motivation and the work it takes to build a business. This comes as practical lessons in the real world -- as opposed to formal, abstract business school training. The experience itself has a value -- beyond the likely failure of any single IBO.
In the modern Internet environment, MLM's can also teach basic Internet marketing methods, SEO, website design and leveraging networks.
Looking at MLMs as instruction also sidesteps the failure issue. A failure, in this paradigm, is finding out that you are not good at this -- also something worth knowing.
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I wonder if someone can become addicted to Amway? Icerat defends just about every aspect, even so far as to debate the quality of motor oil and toilet paper. Or to downplay the obvious fortune these folks make from the functions. I checked with a local hotel in Hawaii that can seat about 5000 guests. You can get the large ballroom, setup and cleanup for $25.00 per head, and that includes a dinner. You may pay more depending on the menu but the basics can be covered for $25.00 per person. Thus a Dream Nite function (or similar) can get you a lot of profit, minus what you pay someone to make the arrangements.
Is this really so hard to understand?
On a radio talk show (Bruce Williams), someone asked what he thought of MLM and Amway in particular. Mr. Williams talks about investing, money and business in general.
He said in nearly any MLM you can name, virtually all participants end up with less money than they start with. Therefore, he felt MLM was not a good way to make a buck.
He said in nearly any MLM you can name, virtually all participants end up with less money than they start with. Therefore, he felt MLM was not a good way to make a buck.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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(4) the unique feature or benefit of the item is that it provided PVP (or whatever it’s called) to the Amway IBO’s who buy it from themselves.
Don’t you think it’s a bit disingenuous to call the Amway commission structure a “loyalty program”?
Are you asserting that low calories and variety are the primary reasons Amway people buy XS and not because they get points for it?
You keep falling on this strategy of claiming that anything bad with Amway is just a small part of Amway or just from one group and doesn’t apply to the whole.
Isn’t that just saying 75% of these people don’t qualify for the compensation? Again, this seems like a bizarre way of taking a negative and presenting it as a positive.
Right. Like I said, talking too much about the material possessions is a bit crass, so only a little bit is spent on the private jets and other expensive toys. “Time freedom” is a good way to get people fired up about being rich without seeming too materialistic, as is anything that relates to family. So when the guy tears up about his dream of being able to offer his potential son-in-law double his best salary offer to come work for the family instead, or talks about teaching the kids foreign languages by taking month long to Spain or France for “immersion language programs”, it’s still selling the audience on Richie-Rich type wealth fantasies.
At the same time, fulfilling these fantasies still require a lot more than just putting the business plan in front of 15 new prospects each month. They require that you build side business that sell motivational materials and energy drinks to your Amway market.
That’s not at all what I said.
That’s a good question. You seem to be assuming without evidence that he financed it with his Amway earnings. I say if that were true, that if his Amway earnings were enough to finance a project like that, then it’s unlikely that he would have ended up in bankruptcy. A more likely scenario would be that he and his partners secured the marketing agreement with Amway first, and then used that agreement to secure the financing needed to get Sharshela started.
Which if true would result in a lot of retired pins. If they’re still working its because they have to.
icerat
Philosopher
blah blah blah. You're going on my ignore list now too. Your mindless ranting will not be missed.
icerat
Philosopher
You apparently forgot to read the start of the definition - "Potential customers who are constrained to purchase a good or service from a particular supplier because ..."
I get points when I shop at the supermarket over the road. Tonight I went to a different one further away. Apparently getting points isn't constraining.
It's the standard term for points/bonus systems throughout the retail industry. For people using Amway membership essentially as a buyers club, it's a perfectly legitimate description
No, probably because Red Bull tastes like ****. But throw in the health issues, yes, it's why I'd buy it, if I liked the taste and it was reasonable value. Points may or may not be an additional incentive depending on circumstances.
Nope, never said that either. All business models have strengths and weaknesses. I've pointed out weaknesses numerous times.
Having said that, when you look at the criticism of Amway, it virtually *all* originates from people who have had experience with one particular group and it's offshoots. All of it. All the distributor-related lawsuits. The anti-amway websites. The "negative" news expose. The handful of anti-amway books. The well known internet critics, including the likes of Newton Trino and JoeCool here, all of those critics that have had an actual experiences have been associated with this group and its offshoots.
Yet other groups, which in some cases are larger, have not attracted all of this criticism. There's an occasional comment here or there, but no lawsuits, no books, no dedicated blogs.
Even if you have only the most basic knowledge of statistics, that really should throw up a read flag?
So if you go to the shop and get a 30% discount, but you don't buy in volume and get a bigger discount, that should be considered a "negative"?
No, because (apart from giving the son-in-law a job) doesn't require great wealth. It requires mostly time and freedom of choice. I took the principles I learned from building Amway in to my other businesses and it's allowed me to do things like that. Heck, I got in to the whole fighting the anti-amway zealots crusade when I spent 4 months in Paris because someone asked if I'd house sit their cat. I could do it (and sit here arguing with folk on JREF) because I don't have a job and don't need one. Using the knowledge I learned from "the system" which is criticised as worthless motivation by some here, I've developed income streams that continue to come in with very little effort. That includes from Amway. I've done nothing serious in Amway for more than a decade, yet my sister-in-law back home in Oz still sends me regular messages "got a check from Amway for you, I'll put it in your account". I haven't even *been* in Australia since 2000. Principles I learned at seminars on CDs, and especially on the books I was encouraged to read have allowed me to apply similar principles to other businesses as well, two of which I've founded, built, and sold for a tidy profit. I'm involved in three other startups at the moment, one of which I was invited to join in with primarily because of my knowledge of the importance of duplicable business systems - knowledge I initially learned through my involvement with Amway.
Rubbish. I have plenty of friends who have neither created companies that sold stuff to Amway, nor built motivational side businesses, that enjoy great lives because of their Amway incomes. Think about a decent Platinum sized business making $50k/yr. Yes it'll take 15-20hrs a week on top of your other job to build it, but once you've built it maybe only 5 hours a week to maintain it. With a bit of planning you could spent a couple of months in Spain or France doing an immersion program with that, couldn't you?
It's the logical implication of what you said.
I know a bit about the history of Sharshela. A good friend of mine is friends with one of the founders (not one of the Duncans). The Duncan's didn't need money to get involved in XS. Greg Duncan's problems primarily seem to be much the same as happened to many other people. Over-extending (primarily property) and getting in trouble with cashflow.
Yeah, I watching Wimbledon a few months ago. Terrible the way John McEnroe has to keep playing on the Senior's tour because he needs the money. And that Bill Gates! He had to work all the way up until last year at Microsoft! Poor guy must be hard up. Not to mention Steve Jobs ... guys fighting cancer and he has to drag himself out of his hospital bed to earn a few bucks at an Apple conference. It's tough, but heck, if he'd actually made any money I'm sure he'd rather being staring at the ceiling doing nothing for the rest of his life
Still working because they have to, poor souls.
icerat
Philosopher
Funnily enough, just mentioned "business experience" in a reply above!
Robert Pagliarini, CBS columnist and author, also wrote an article a while back - Why You Should Join Amway that talks about these kind of benefits.
Personally I think the #1 benefit I got from Amway is product related. Coming from a medical research background I was skeptical of the whole "supplements" industyr. I took the time and effort to learn about nutrition and nutritional science, and the approach of Amway's Nutrilite brand, which is unique, and I have zero doubt that knowledge (combined with Nutrilite) has had an extremely beneficial influence on my families life, and will for generations to come. Did you know that nutritional status of the mother in pregnancy has now been shown to effect the ultimate health of *grandchildren*?
The whole epigenetics/neutrogenomics field is truly a fascinating one.
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Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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No, I read it.
When a dictionary lists multiple definitions of a word, the word applies if any of the definitions fit. It doesn't have to fit all of them.
I'll look at the rest of your post later. Right now I've got some errands to run.
icerat
Philosopher
I'll post the definition for you again, since you clearly did not read it. I'll even bold the relevant bits so you don't need to struggle with the multichoice part.
Potential customers who are constrained to purchase a good or service from a particular supplier because of (1) shortages, (2) competitors' high prices, (3) lack of competition, (4) unique feature or benefit of the item, or (5) the seller owning the buying entity.
Potential customers who are constrained to purchase a good or service from a particular supplier because of (1) shortages, (2) competitors' high prices, (3) lack of competition, (4) unique feature or benefit of the item, or (5) the seller owning the buying entity.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The unique feature or "benefit" of the item is that buying it from Amway gives you points. Was I not clear about that?
icerat
Philosopher
And that "constrains" you how exactly?
ETA: it's also not unique, lots of places offer "points" for buying from them