Gaydar: real or woo?

[Puppycow]

There's currently an argument about whether Michele Bachmann's husband Marcus is a closeted gay man based on his lisp and his mannerisms.

Read My Lisp: Is Michele Bachmann's husband gay? Don't trust gaydar to settle the question.

Now Marcus Bachmann, husband of Republican presidential candidate Rep. Michele Bachmann, is setting off gaydar alarms. It started as a subtle joke among bloggers. Then it progressed to parody and overt insinuation. On Tuesday, Dan Savage said the Bachmanns' marriage was frigid because Mr. Bachmann may have "tiptoed down" the road to homosexuality "just a couple of inches … maybe six, maybe seven." As evidence, Savage cited Bachmann's "mincing" in a YouTube clip, plus "the sound of his voice." He concluded that Bachmann "appears to be a lying closet case." On Wednesday, Jon Stewart said Bachmann, who counsels homosexuals to overcome their urges, seems to be doing this "so he can hoard all the gayness for himself." Stewart said Bachmann "dances and sounds not only gay, but center-square gay."

There's nothing new about calling somebody gay based on a lisp or a girlish gait. We all saw, did, or suffered it in grade school. What's unusual is seeing grown-up gays and liberals do it in 2011 with such open ridicule. But don't worry: The new queer-hunters are progressive. They detect homosexuality based on science, not stereotypes. Savage cites a series of studies, written up two years ago in Scientific American, in which college students correctly distinguished gay from straight men based on facial features. He concludes: "Gaydar is for real."

The article goes on to talk about those studies, which seem to indicate some evidence for gaydar working at least a little bit for out of the closet gay men, although not with anywhere near 100% accuracy. We don't know whether it works for closeted gay men because, well, they are closeted so we don't know.

Personally, I think we should lay off the insinuations and stereotyping based on a lisp or a mannerism. It really seems like a kind of bullying to me. It doesn't raise the level of conversation, but lowers it. It's also confirmation bias. You assume that gaydar works because it seems to work most of the time, and so you assume that it works all of the time, and if a straight-identified man sets off your gaydar, you assume that he's a closet case. So it's not falsifiable anyway.

 

[Caper]

I've seen very manly looking & acting gay guys. The British rugby player comes to mind. But I never known an ultra effeminate guy and known them not to have been gay. I want to cite Richard Simmons as an example.... but I can't confirm that he is gay.............. but there is no way you can act that gay and not be gay right?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

There's currently an argument about whether Michele Bachmann's husband Marcus is a closeted gay man based on his lisp and his mannerisms.

Read My Lisp: Is Michele Bachmann's husband gay? Don't trust gaydar to settle the question.



The article goes on to talk about those studies, which seem to indicate some evidence for gaydar working at least a little bit for out of the closet gay men, although not with anywhere near 100% accuracy. We don't know whether it works for closeted gay men because, well, they are closeted so we don't know.

Personally, I think we should lay off the insinuations and stereotyping based on a lisp or a mannerism. It really seems like a kind of bullying to me. It doesn't raise the level of conversation, but lowers it. It's also confirmation bias. You assume that gaydar works because it seems to work most of the time, and so you assume that it works all of the time, and if a straight-identified man sets off your gaydar, you assume that he's a closet case. So it's not falsifiable anyway.

Of course, in California, if he or his wife go on to do anything historically significant, future textbooks in this state will almost certainly assert that he was gay, in order to use him as an example according to the new “gay history” law.

What they have on him is surely at least as much evidence as they will have on any extant historical figures that will be alleged to have been homosexuals.

 

[Puppycow]

I've seen very manly looking & acting gay guys. The British rugby player comes to mind. But I never known an ultra effeminate guy and known them not to have been gay. I want to cite Richard Simmons as an example.... but I can't confirm that he is gay.............. but there is no way you can act that gay and not be gay right?

Again, it's an unfalsifiable tautology.

Here's what Wikipedia says about Richard Simmons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Simmons#Personality

Simmons claims to have few friends, saying "I don't have a lot to offer one person. I have a lot to offer to a lot of people." Aside from his three Dalmatians and two maids, Simmons lives alone in the Hollywood Hills.[22] Although there has been frequent speculation about his sexual orientation due to his campy personality, Simmons has never publicly discussed his sexuality.[23][24][25][26][27]

Is he gay? I think so, but he's not saying and so, we are left to wonder.

 

[The Don]

Mrs Don has Gaydar calibrated to United States operation. In the UK she often has difficulty discriminating between gay and posh.

In any case, Gaydar (if it exists - which it probably doesn't IMO) is self fulfilling:

• Gaydar says gay - person says they are gay - Gaydar is working
• Gaydar says gay - person says not gay - person is in denial - Gaydar is working
• Gaydar says not gay - person says not gay - gaydar is working
• Gaydar says not gay - person says gay - Gaydar is still basically working but in need of a little recalibration

When someone like Marcus Bachmann is so anti-homosexual, I think it is valid to question their motives.

 

[Rasmus]

I've seen very manly looking & acting gay guys. The British rugby player comes to mind. But I never known an ultra effeminate guy and known them not to have been gay. I want to cite Richard Simmons as an example.... but I can't confirm that he is gay.............. but there is no way you can act that gay and not be gay right?

Wrong.

You have arbitrarily assigned some characteristic with gayness.

Got any evidence?

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Unless you have some personal interest in dating the person in question, why do you care?

 

[Caper]

Again, it's an unfalsifiable tautology.

Here's what Wikipedia says about Richard Simmons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Simmons#Personality

Is he gay? I think so, but he's not saying and so, we are left to wonder.

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously. There are guys where I was stunned to learn they were gay. I don't think anyone would have been able to tell. I don't think there is a a gaydar for that.

I was more wondering if I would ever come across the opposite..... where I was stunned someone was straight. I suppose I do know guys that are effeminate and in straight relationships (though I just assume they are gay)..... But not that Richard Simmons/ flamboyant/ effeminate personality, I'd be surprised to ever come across that.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I was also extremely disappointed in Jon and many others for taking this tactic (I already loathe and expect this of Savage). If this was anyone else, we would be shouting homophobia.

 

[Caper]

Wrong.

You have arbitrarily assigned some characteristic with gayness.

Got any evidence?

Spare me the PC garbage.

Here is my evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvZeJSUDPM&feature=relmfu

 

[Caper]

Unless you have some personal interest in dating the person in question, why do you care

General human intrest.... Have a problem with that?

 

[Hokulele]

Of course, in California, if he or his wife go on to do anything historically significant, future textbooks in this state will almost certainly assert that he was gay, in order to use him as an example according to the new “gay history” law.

What they have on him is surely at least as much evidence as they will have on any extant historical figures that will be alleged to have been homosexuals.

Wrong.

SIEGEL: Let's focus on gay and lesbian for a moment. Do you mean openly gay and lesbian, or is this a discussion of people in history who are now believed to have been homosexual, to use the old word.

State Sen. LENO: I get that question asked often. In fact, this is not about outing historical figures. It's really about addressing and making sure that we don't further censor a very important chapter of civil rights history.

Source:

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/18/138484226/calif-public-schools-to-teach-gay-history

 

[Floyt]

Mine's broken with dudes. Unless there are dwarf pinschers and hair extensions involved. At which point the guy probably still turns out to be a fashion victim with high resistance to nervous yipping and a pouty girlfriend. I've learned not to guess until there's actual snogging on display.

 

[arthwollipot]

Gaydar works perfectly... on some gay people who are obvious about their gayness. There have been a few people that I strongly suspected of being gay even though they'd never mentioned it, and finally I confirmed it. I'm sure there are other people who are gay and I'd never know.

Incidentally, there was one person I had pegged as evangelical Christian before I found out that he was an atheist and a skeptic.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Personally, I think we should lay off the insinuations and stereotyping based on a lisp or a mannerism. It really seems like a kind of bullying to me. It doesn't raise the level of conversation, but lowers it. It's also confirmation bias. You assume that gaydar works because it seems to work most of the time, and so you assume that it works all of the time, and if a straight-identified man sets off your gaydar, you assume that he's a closet case. So it's not falsifiable anyway.

Absolutely - now if they had evidence that he is gay whilst he (presumably) claims he isn't and he also "..counsels homosexuals.." then I think an argument can be made to support "outing" him but otherwise it is nothing but bullying.

To the question of your opening post, I do think there is something in "gaydar" but only in the sense that we can all read each other's body language and so on to a certain degree.

 

[Bikewer]

Anyone who's been around the gay community knows there's a continuum; a spectrum of appearance and mannerism and other more subtle characteristics.
Some gay males are quite effeminate. Voice, mannerisms....Others are not at all.
For a straight person, "gaydar" would likely be fairly accurate in detecting overtly effeminate types; not so much with the "bears".
With women, there are obviously those which present a highly masculine appearance and mannerisms as well...And those who don't.

 

[sgtbaker]

If gaydar is accurate or not accurate, confirmation biased or self fulfilling, it doesn't matter because sexual preference seems to be becoming so muddled, as time passes that don't know how much longer the either/or question can maintain relevance. I know more people that fit into the bisexual or heteroflexible group than I do, people who identify as homosexual and heterosexual.

I do agree that calling Marcus Bachman out on his homophobia is necessary. As funny/ironic as accusing him of being a closeted homosexual may sound, it's dishonest, unless there is some kind of study linking speech impediments with sexual preference, that I am unaware of.

 

[Rasmus]

Spare me the PC garbage.

Nothing PC about it.

Here is my evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvZeJSUDPM&feature=relmfu

I can't open the video right now.

How much should I bet that it shows a person that is stereotypically gay?

What would that tell us?

There is a stereotype about effeminate gay people. Some people are gay, some are effeminate. There probably is a cross-section of those two groups as well. But that does very little to tell us that being effeminate is a good indicator for homosexuality.

You simply need evidence for that, and all you have are a few anecdotes at best.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I find that most gays have a very good sense of Gaydar, particularly - as mentioned already - uncloseted gays who spent years passing.

Meh? Mine sucks. If I was sipping a drink with Liberace and Harvey Milk I'd probably ask them if they wanted to go check out the chicks at the New Makati with me.

 

[rustypouch]

So a conservative, religious, 'family-values' type in the public eye?

Yeah, sounds pretty gay to me.

With respect to gaydar, I find it interesting that straight guys often ask if I'm gay, but gay guys don't...