Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Nick Terry]

I bet the above post, (shameless brown nosed butt licking that it is) will gain you some much deserved "brownie points" here with the heavy hitters in holocaust central. You are a real up and comer!! However I am not here to garner any of these coveted brownie points.

This is fascinating. What is 'holocaust central' and how does it dispense brownie points? What can you earn with those brownie points? And most importantly, what evidence do you have to support your answers to these questions, or did you just make all of this up and decide to blow smoke out of your ass?

I personally reject many of these buzz/weasel word like "holocaust denier", "birther", "truther", anti-semite, "war on terror", "conspiracy theorist" Islamofascist and other crappy little manufactured perjoratives which are commonly used in propaganda campaigns to marginilize and condemn those who disagree with a set position.

How wonderful for you. Unfortunately, your personal rejection of terms in everyday use - and which often derive from the self-identification of the group in question* - does not actually matter very much when the rest of society uses them quite routinely, on both sides of the political aisle. Except maybe 'Islamofascist'. The 'war on terror' was the Bush administration's official designation for fighting terrorism after 9/11, and thus doesn't sit very comfortably with the other terms, none of which were originated by governments.


*antisemites coined the term antisemitism, many in the self-styled 9/11 Truth Movement called themselves Truthers, birthers have registered a website using the term, the premiere site for Holocaust denial videos is called, er, holocaustdenialvideos.com, one of the biggest websites for conspiracy theories uses the term in its marketing, etc etc...

 

[Gene Alley]

You would, wouldn't you? Me? I call it as I see it.

Why do you hate Jews?

I'm sitting here watching the Pirates vs Astros with the most Jewish guy in the neighborhood. I don't hate Jews. We are both laughing at what a drama queen you are, right now. Just keep calling it as you see it, but try not to hurt yourself little buddy.

 

[Nick Terry]

To save myself further time, perhaps I might ask Gene Alley whether

a) he doubts that Obama is a US citizen
b) he doubts the conventionally and internationally accepted explanation for 9/11
c) he disagrees with any other "set positions" and if so, are any of these disagreements often referred to as conspiracy theories (whether he likes it or not)

 

[Gene Alley]

This is fascinating. What is 'holocaust central' and how does it dispense brownie points? What can you earn with those brownie points? And most importantly, what evidence do you have to support your answers to these questions, or did you just make all of this up and decide to blow smoke out of your ass?

I was informed earlier in this thread by one of your supporters that I would not gain any "brownie points" here regarding my semantic sophistry. I found that kind of amusing and replied that I was not after any of these coveted brownie points. The last time I checked, there was no smoke coming from my ass, but thanks for your concern.

How wonderful for you. Unfortunately, your personal rejection of terms in everyday use - and which often derive from the self-identification of the group in question* - does not actually matter very much when the rest of society uses them quite routinely, on both sides of the political aisle. Except maybe 'Islamofascist'. The 'war on terror' was the Bush administration's official designation for fighting terrorism after 9/11, and thus doesn't sit very comfortably with the other terms, none of which were originated by governments.


*antisemites coined the term antisemitism, many in the self-styled 9/11 Truth Movement called themselves Truthers, birthers have registered a website using the term, the premiere site for Holocaust denial videos is called, er, holocaustdenialvideos.com, one of the biggest websites for conspiracy theories uses the term in its marketing, etc etc...

Thank you professor. You are a real fountain of information as befits a man of your stature. Perhaps I have not yet been properly socialized. I'll take all of your words of wisdom into consideration and deal with them as I see fit.

 

[uke2se]

I'm sitting here watching the Pirates vs Astros with the most Jewish guy in the neighborhood. I don't hate Jews. We are both laughing at what a drama queen you are, right now. Just keep calling it as you see it, but try not to hurt yourself little buddy.

Ah, the "Some of my best friends are Jews"-defense. Why don't you tell your Jewish friend you don't think his relatives/family friends really died in the holocaust? I'm sure he'll join you in a guffaw over the hilarity of it all.

 

[Gene Alley]

To save myself further time, perhaps I might ask Gene Alley whether

a) he doubts that Obama is a US citizen
b) he doubts the conventionally and internationally accepted explanation for 9/11
c) he disagrees with any other "set positions" and if so, are any of these disagreements often referred to as conspiracy theories (whether he likes it or not)

a) I'm satisfied that Obama is a US citizen, nor would I give a damn if he were born in Africa and brought here as an infant.

b)I have no doubt that the U.S. government has lied to it's citizens and the world regarding many aspects of the 911 attacks and the subsequent endless wars that have followed.

c)I believe that in world politics and international business affairs conspiratorial criminal behavior by the ruling class is the rule rather than the exception, and has been for quite some time.

 

[uke2se]

Thank you professor. You are a real fountain of information as befits a man of your stature. Perhaps I have not yet been properly socialized. I'll take all of your words of wisdom into consideration and deal with them as I see fit.

So you're just here to troll us "holohoaxers" then?

When are you going to get on with listing the valid arguments made by deniers in this thread? Perhaps if you posted less crap you could find the time?

Maybe you could ask your Jewish friend to help you?

 

[uke2se]

b)I have no doubt that the U.S. government has lied to it's citizens and the world regarding many aspects of the 911 attacks and the subsequent endless wars that have followed.

Do you believe the US government and or Israelis had anything to do with the attacks on 911?

c)I believe that in world politics and international business affairs conspiratorial criminal behavior by the ruling class is the rule rather than the exception, and has been for quite some time.

Would you say that the "ruling class" is mostly Jewish in denomination?

 

[ddt]

I bet the above post, (shameless brown nosed butt licking that it is) will gain you some much deserved "brownie points" here with the heavy hitters in holocaust central. You are a real up and comer!! However I am not here to garner any of these coveted brownie points.

I personally reject many of these buzz/weasel word like "holocaust denier", "birther", "truther", anti-semite, "war on terror", "conspiracy theorist" Islamofascist and other crappy little manufactured perjoratives which are commonly used in propaganda campaigns to marginilize and condemn those who disagree with a set position.

The term "Holocaust denial" is not a weasel word: it's the concisest term in English to describe the position of people like Saggy, Clayton Moore, LGR and others. And it's not pejorative, as Nick noted the term is even used by the deniers themselves. There's also a wiki page with that title - and wiki has a neutral POV.

The term "holocaust central" you used, OTOH, is clearly pejorative and cannot be construed in any way to be neutral. While your opening gambit of "the deniers made some cogent points" might, just might have been born out of naïveté, your use of such an obvious pejorative term shows your colours.

And are you going to actually address the subject matter of the thread, and answer the various questions posed to you, instead of making failed attempts at swipes at other forumites?

 

[Nick Terry]

a) I'm satisfied that Obama is a US citizen, nor would I give a damn if he were born in Africa and brought here as an infant.

Score one for sanity.

b)I have no doubt that the U.S. government has lied to it's citizens and the world regarding many aspects of the 911 attacks and the subsequent endless wars that have followed.

This doesn't answer my question. I specified the conventionally and internationally accepted explanation for 9/11. What most people think happened on 9/11 is not the product of the US government alone.

c)I believe that in world politics and international business affairs conspiratorial criminal behavior by the ruling class is the rule rather than the exception, and has been for quite some time.

and this distinguishes you from a Marxist how, precisely?

 

[Gene Alley]

Ah, the "Some of my best friends are Jews"-defense. Why don't you tell your Jewish friend you don't think his relatives/family friends really died in the holocaust? I'm sure he'll join you in a guffaw over the hilarity of it all.

He doesn't know of any family members who were killed during WWII except his dad's brother who was killed at Omaha Beach in '44 along with my dad's brother. Neither of us are "holocaust deniers", "anti-semites" or "Hitler Huggers".

 

[uke2se]

He doesn't know of any family members who were killed during WWII except his dad's brother who was killed at Omaha Beach in '44 along with my dad's brother. Neither of us are "holocaust deniers", "anti-semites" or "Hitler Huggers".

So you believe that there was a systematic murder of European Jewry by Nazis during World War II, involving mass shootings and the use of gas chambers?

A yes or no will suffice.

 

[ddt]

Score one for sanity.

Actually, Gene ducked the question. The US Constitution requires the president to be a natural born citizen, not just a citizen - who may be naturalized at later date - but born on US soil.

and this distinguishes you from a Marxist how, precisely?

That Gene used the word "criminal" which is the legal concept of trespassing the law. A Marxist would argue that the laws are written to favour the rich. To quote the English translation of the Internationale:

The State oppresses and the law cheats
Tax bleeds the unfortunate
No duty is imposed on the rich
The rights of the poor is an empty phrase

 

[Gene Alley]

Score one for sanity.

Oh boy!

This doesn't answer my question. I specified the conventionally and internationally accepted explanation for 9/11. What most people think happened on 9/11 is not the product of the US government alone.

I do not subscribe to the "conventionally and internationally accepted explaination for 9/11". Im one of the large percentage world wide who believe that this attack was staged in order to facilitate the mass invasion of the middle east by the US and the UK for financial and political reasons.

Quote:
c)I believe that in world politics and international business affairs conspiratorial criminal behavior by the ruling class is the rule rather than the exception, and has been for quite some time.

and this distinguishes you from a Marxist how, precisely?

Has nothing to do with Marxism. I don't do "isms". I simply believe that criminals tend towards conspiritorial behavior especially in matters concerning money and power.

 

[uke2se]

Has nothing to do with Marxism. I don't do "isms". I simply believe that criminals tend towards conspiritorial behavior especially in matters concerning money and power.

So you're a truther. Who do you believe was behind the attacks? Just a quick answer to end this derail, please.

 

[Gene Alley]

So you believe that there was a systematic murder of European Jewry by Nazis during World War II, involving mass shootings and the use of gas chambers?

A yes or no will suffice.

Have I been subpoened here? You pose your question like a sleazy prosecution lawyer.I believe that many Jews and others were murdered by the Nazis during the '30s and '40s. I'm not sure about the numbers involved or the systems invoked. At any rate, I believe that the Jews, the Gypsies and many others were treated abhorently during this time for which there is no excuse.

 

[Cyrix686]

In case you didn't understand it, ddt's short circuiting of the predictable self-indulgent, "Oh what shall we call ourselves, blah blah blah?" was spot on.

It's the "Name Game" (a cod oh favourite). Oh what shall we call ourselves? Who cares! Talk to Clayton if you are unhappy about being referred to as a Holocaust denier and about what you would rather we call you but please don't expect us to indulge you in your silly choices and delusions. Thank you. Now get to the denying and lets have less of the inferiority complex.

By the way Gene (as this is amateur night) NT is probably (certainly) worth 10 of you. In knowledge, in argumentation and in achievement. You are insecure. NT also has a fully formed personality and 802 JREF informative posts. If you do not believe me, ask the other JREFERS. You have what is it, 19 posts. OK?

One other thing, I always believe in giving a noob who is representing the finest in cutting edge noob Revisionism, slack but I am mainly here, it is true, to observe amateur "revisionists" getting disabused of their second-hand notions by some real pros.

 

[Gene Alley]

So you're a truther. Who do you believe was behind the attacks? Just a quick answer to end this derail, please.

Criminal elements within US, UK, Israeli, Pakistani, and Saudi intel.

 

[uke2se]

Have I been subpoened here? You pose your question like a sleazy prosecution lawyer.I believe that many Jews and others were murdered by the Nazis during the '30s and '40s. I'm not sure about the numbers involved or the systems invoked. At any rate, I believe that the Jews, the Gypsies and many others were treated abhorently during this time for which there is no excuse.

Do you usually make a habit of not answering questions? The reason I ask is that you have spouted denialist rhetoric earlier in the thread. If you accept the history of the holocaust, your behavior is mere trolling. If you don't accept the history of the holocaust (including the systematic killing) you are categorized as a holocaust denier because of simple ignorance or willful ignorance.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I bet the above post, (shameless brown nosed butt licking that it is) will gain you some much deserved "brownie points" here with the heavy hitters in holocaust central. You are a real up and comer!! However I am not here to garner any of these coveted brownie points.

I personally reject many of these buzz/weasel word like "holocaust denier", "birther", "truther", anti-semite, "war on terror", "conspiracy theorist" Islamofascist and other crappy little manufactured perjoratives which are commonly used in propaganda campaigns to marginilize and condemn those who disagree with a set position.

And I would bet you are wrong about butt licking and brownie points and so on. The question is whether some people argue that the Holocaust did not occur. If people do so argue, then the descriptive "Holocaust denier" is not a pejorative at all. I recognize that many people who maintain that there was no mass murder of the Jews, or only some incidental or collateral deaths in time of war, like to be called revisionists: but for them to earn that name, they would have to engage the history and revise it. See our earlier exchange on this topic: deniers have failed miserably on this score, mainly because they have not offered a coherent critique of the state of the scholarship nor offered a coherent alternative narrative.

Also read back through this thread and show me where the deniers posting in it have done this study and work of revisionism--or even cite the work of deniers ostensibly doing this kind of critique. At best, a few of them pick a handful of isolated topics and minor contradictions, the sort which are present in any broad set of sources on any period of history, and try debunking these isolated points: this is not the same as undertaking a revision of historical understanding of a period or summarizing such for us.

For my better understanding, and that of other members of this forum, could you please define "holocaust central"--what it is, who belongs, how it functions?

As to antisemite, the Nazis were proud to call themselves antisemites, until they realized this usage alienated potential allies in north Africa and the Middle East. The term is not a "buzz" or "weasel" word in discussion of National Socialist ideology and policy, nor is antisemitic such in describing the views of people who understand events in terms of hidden Jewish power, Jewish conspiracies, Jewish manipulation, and Jewish malevolence, as many deniers do. Do you deny that people harbor prejudice against or hatred of Jews?