Going green can earn you your neighbor's wrath

[Dymanic]

I really, really doubt there's "poorly insulated" new homes being built in Texas or anywhere else in the US for that matter.

And what is the basis for that doubt, other than it happening to be compatible with your ideological viewpoint on this issue? Do you dispute that at least some builders are motivated to produce homes that can be cheaply sold rather than to build homes that can be cheaply climate-controlled?

Maybe 50 years ago, before A/C was common and when heating costs were low.

By your own logic, the incentive to build well insulated homes should have been even greater before A/C was common, since your focus has been on cooling costs rather than heating costs. Are you now going to switch to arguing that it's colder in Texas than in California?

 

[rwguinn]

And what is the basis for that doubt, other than it happening to be compatible with your ideological viewpoint on this issue? Do you dispute that at least some builders are motivated to produce homes that can be cheaply sold rather than to build homes that can be cheaply climate-controlled?

By your own logic, the incentive to build well insulated homes should have been even greater before A/C was common, since your focus has been on cooling costs rather than heating costs. Are you now going to switch to arguing that it's colder in Texas than in California?

Ah, yes--back 50 years ago we had all these wonderful insulation options that we have now- blow-in, spray foam, rigid foam,Tyvec wrap, double and triple pane windows with barriers plus all the knowledge accumulated since then, as well as building codes that stress minimum insulation.
When we re-did our house in Denver (built in the 1950's/early 1960's) we found 2" of batt insulation in the ceiling (R5), and the wall insulation was a stack-up of 3/8" drywall, 3/8" "homosote board", and 1 layer of brick. All windows were single-pane. That was to code-then.
My grandmother's house in Texas (Graham) had even less--but had huge windows that opened up for cross-flow, and we ate cold food to keep it from overheating.
Things have changed. My house is built to code (2004). It has 6" batt in the walls, and 18" blow-in in the attic. All exterior doors are insulated and windows triple pane.

 

[WildCat]

And what is the basis for that doubt, other than it happening to be compatible with your ideological viewpoint on this issue?

Because I am in the construction business, and while I don't build new homes I get to tear apart lots of older homes. And in homes built prior to WWII you often see no insulation at all in homes, but by the time you get to the late 1970s everything is insulated up the wazoo. Homeowners don't like to spend $600/month to heat a home whereas it would cost $150 if it were insulated. They also don't like to sweat in the summer because the A/C can't keep up with the heat gain.

Do you dispute that at least some builders are motivated to produce homes that can be cheaply sold rather than to build homes that can be cheaply climate-controlled?

Who are these people who would buy a new home that is poorly insulated? People buy new homes in part because they're well insulated, unlike older homes which often have no insulation at all.

By your own logic, the incentive to build well insulated homes should have been even greater before A/C was common,

No, before A/C was common windows were carefully placed to ensure air flow through the house. Insulation does not help at all if you don't have A/C, in fact it can make it much worse as it locks in heat from hot water heaters, ovens, stoves, televisions, light bulbs, etc.

since your focus has been on cooling costs rather than heating costs. Are you now going to switch to arguing that it's colder in Texas than in California?

Cooling and heating both factor in the equation. In which case you have to look at the whole picture, from summer highs to winter lows and weigh that against the typical 72-75^oF comfort zone. The further away you are from that on any given day the more energy you will use for heating/cooling.

I concentrated on cooling in Texas because I'd guess Texans use far more energy cooling than they do heating.

 

[rwguinn]

Because I am in the construction business, and while I don't build new homes I get to tear apart lots of older homes. And in homes built prior to WWII you often see no insulation at all in homes, but by the time you get to the late 1970s everything is insulated up the wazoo. Homeowners don't like to spend $600/month to heat a home whereas it would cost $150 if it were insulated. They also don't like to sweat in the summer because the A/C can't keep up with the heat gain.


Who are these people who would buy a new home that is poorly insulated? People buy new homes in part because they're well insulated, unlike older homes which often have no insulation at all.


No, before A/C was common windows were carefully placed to ensure air flow through the house. Insulation does not help at all if you don't have A/C, in fact it can make it much worse as it locks in heat from hot water heaters, ovens, stoves, televisions, light bulbs, etc.


Cooling and heating both factor in the equation. In which case you have to look at the whole picture, from summer highs to winter lows and weigh that against the typical 72-75^oF comfort zone. The further away you are from that on any given day the more energy you will use for heating/cooling.

I concentrated on cooling in Texas because I'd guess Texans use far more energy cooling than they do heating.

Most cooling up until the late 1960's was evaporative, rather than refrigerated, air conditioning--which doesn't work so well in humid climates. the problem in hot, humid climates was getting heat out of the house. Since heating costs were low, and used only for a couple of months out of the year, the lack of insulation was a bonus that was paid for in the few cold months.
Evaporative A/C requires an open house--to make room for all that outside air you were blowing in, so housed had big, open-able windows, and were pretty leaky, overall.
Heating was generally by natural gas, and consisted of a floor furnace (when you had a basement or crawl space) or wall furnaces--open flame, hot grilles (my sister burned herself quite badly on a floor furnace). The rest of the house was cold, and you slept under many quilts and blankets...

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Does anyone have Dallas' yearly humidity levels to go with the temperature levels shown earlier?

I'm in Addison, and although it's only 99 degrees today I went outside and can barely breathe. Maybe it's the moisture level that makes the heat so unbearable here?

 

[rwguinn]

Does anyone have Dallas' yearly humidity levels to go with the temperature levels shown earlier?

I'm in Addison, and although it's only 99 degrees today I went outside and can barely breathe. Maybe it's the moisture level that makes the heat so unbearable here?

Source--Historic data through 2010--averages at 3:00PM
http://web2.iadfw.net/danb1/climate.htm
j f m a m j j a s o n d
52 41 48 50 53 47 42 41 46 47 49 51

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Source--Historic data through 2010--averages at 3:00PM
http://web2.iadfw.net/danb1/climate.htm
j f m a m j j a s o n d
52 41 48 50 53 47 42 41 46 47 49 51

That makes sense to me.

Until recently I was in a terrible old place out in the sticks, and with the window unit cranked up in the summer I would still be dripping with sweat during the summer. It feels like you're drowning in your own skin.

 

[rwguinn]

just for those of you curious--LA vs Dallas temp chart, average through 2010

 

[BenBurch]

I think the idea that California has this great mild climate is kinda weird. Sure, the Bay Area does but try selling that to the people in LA during an August heat wave.

Which is exactly the time when energyStar roofs, heat-rejecting glass, solar attic fans, and solar air conditioning makes most sense.

 

[Modified]

Does anyone have Dallas' yearly humidity levels to go with the temperature levels shown earlier?

I'm in Addison, and although it's only 99 degrees today I went outside and can barely breathe. Maybe it's the moisture level that makes the heat so unbearable here?

At this moment, Las Vegas is at 95 F with a heat index of 90 F, Miami is at 89 F with a heat index of 96 F. So Vegas is six degrees hotter but feels six degrees cooler.

 

[rwguinn]

Does anyone have Dallas' yearly humidity levels to go with the temperature levels shown earlier?

I'm in Addison, and although it's only 99 degrees today I went outside and can barely breathe. Maybe it's the moisture level that makes the heat so unbearable here?

At this moment, Las Vegas is at 95 F with a heat index of 90 F, Miami is at 89 F with a heat index of 96 F. So Vegas is six degrees hotter but feels six degrees cooler.

At 5:00 PM CDTk, addison was 99F, humidity of 35%, for a HI of 104.
Humidity increases density altitude, as does heat, so today you feel like you are at 3500 feet above sea level.

 

[Dymanic]

Ah, yes--back 50 years ago we had all these wonderful insulation options that we have now- blow-in, spray foam, rigid foam,Tyvec wrap, double and triple pane windows with barriers plus all the knowledge accumulated since then, as well as building codes that stress minimum insulation.

I can remember getting all itchy crawling around in an attic in Dallas filled with this stuff called "rock wool" about fifty years ago -- but I find the portion I've bolded to be the most pertinent here, because what we're trying to sort out is the relative impact of top-down policies like building codes on per capita consumption of electricity -- relative to the impact of climate.

 

[Dymanic]

Who are these people who would buy a new home that is poorly insulated?

Or poorly built in any respect? As a person in the construction business, are you going to try to tell me that your experience indicates that only well-built homes are ever sold?

On the 2010 census, 61.8% of the housing units in LA and 46% of those in Houston were occupied by renters. I would have to assume that among those renters are some who would prefer to own their own homes, and for whom the highest priorities would be selling price and financing terms, with R-value of the building's freaking insulation somewhere near the bottom of the list of criteria.

I concentrated on cooling in Texas because I'd guess Texans use far more energy cooling than they do heating.

They certainly use more electricity for cooling than for heating, just as is the case for most places in the US, so I think we can safely continue to focus on that, considering that what remains at issue is this argument Travis made on page one:

Arguably it is because of such laws that California uses less electricity (allegedly) than Texas despite having over ten million more people.

 

[rwguinn]

Or poorly built in any respect? As a person in the construction business, are you going to try to tell me that your experience indicates that only well-built homes are ever sold?

On the 2010 census, 61.8% of the housing units in LA and 46% of those in Houston were occupied by renters. I would have to assume that among those renters are some who would prefer to own their own homes, and for whom the highest priorities would be selling price and financing terms, with R-value of the building's freaking insulation somewhere near the bottom of the list of criteria.

They certainly use more electricity for cooling than for heating, just as is the case for most places in the US, so I think we can safely continue to focus on that, considering that what remains at issue is this argument Travis made on page one:

Using less electricity and using less electricity per capita are 2 entirely different things...

 

[Modified]

They certainly use more electricity for cooling than for heating, just as is the case for most places in the US, so I think we can safely continue to focus on that, considering that what remains at issue is this argument Travis made on page one:

There probably isn't much non-electric heating in Texas.

 

[rwguinn]

There probably isn't much non-electric heating in Texas.

My housing development does not even have gas available. This is the case with pretty much all new development--we searched for a house for 6 months (Driving our Realtor crazy) over 3 counties--Tarrant, Hood, and Parker--and never saw gas at any house built after 2000.
With the sealed-up, highly insulated places, Heat Pumps make more sense--and only one set of ductwork is required.

 

[Arisia]

Does Texas have any energy efficiency programs for homeowners that are sponsored by utilities?

Living in Massachusetts, we mostly worry about insulation to keep the heat in during the winter, but it certainly helps to keep the cooled air (whether by a/c or opening the house overnight) in during the summer, too. We have an energy efficiency program that utility customers pay into on their bill each month (tiny fractions of a penny per kilowatt), and we're actually taking advantage of it this year; a home energy audit, followed by supplementing the insulation in our attic and sealing some of the leaks to the outside and up into the attic, and our house is only 11 years old. Actually, we're putting up solar PV, and to receive some of the state incentives, you do need to go through the home energy audit at the very least.

(Actually, have any of the Californians here dealt with Solar City? We're doing a pre-paid lease with them, and they seem to be still getting used to working with the Massachusetts rules/incentives.)

 

[Jeff Corey]

I would favor outlawing HOAs entirely. Any regulation requiring a lawn is a waste of water, which is a growing concern. There is not enough useable water to support the kind of landscaping that people seem to think they need in California or Nevada.

Sometimes, the choice has to be made between supplying munincipal water systems or supporting fish populations, in which case, logic would demand that the lawns be allowed to die.

But sometimes other people's money is allowed to over-rule most people's common sense.

It's not only the HOAs, local regulations make too many people who want native flora and no wasted water conform to lawn mowing laws. It's nobody's business if I want my lawn to go native and not waste drinking water or agricultural use. Like Thorstein Veblen said, this is fracking conspicuous consumption for bourgeoise to say "You peasant! Get your sheep off my lawn. "

 

[Dymanic]

Using less electricity and using less electricity per capita are 2 entirely different things...

Indeed they are. California, the most populous state in the country, uses considerably more electricity than all other states -- except Texas, which uses considerably more than California.

California's per capita use of electricity (6,721 kWh per) is the lowest in the nation -- and less than half of what Texans use (14,179 kWh per). Is the climate in Texas more than twice as harsh as California?

 

[rwguinn]

Does Texas have any energy efficiency programs for homeowners that are sponsored by utilities?

Living in Massachusetts, we mostly worry about insulation to keep the heat in during the winter, but it certainly helps to keep the cooled air (whether by a/c or opening the house overnight) in during the summer, too. We have an energy efficiency program that utility customers pay into on their bill each month (tiny fractions of a penny per kilowatt), and we're actually taking advantage of it this year; a home energy audit, followed by supplementing the insulation in our attic and sealing some of the leaks to the outside and up into the attic, and our house is only 11 years old. Actually, we're putting up solar PV, and to receive some of the state incentives, you do need to go through the home energy audit at the very least.

(Actually, have any of the Californians here dealt with Solar City? We're doing a pre-paid lease with them, and they seem to be still getting used to working with the Massachusetts rules/incentives.)

Texas "Deregulated" utility companies--still the same number of power plants--they just sell to the "Energy Companies" who compete for the lowest rates/most customers. ONCOR is the delivery company, taking care of all power-line maintenance. They'll do an energy audit, but its not free. Since Texas has no income tax, you don't get a break for upgrading, except what the Feds offer

It's not only the HOAs, local regulations make too many people who want native flora and no wasted water conform to lawn mowing laws. It's nobody's business if I want my lawn to go native and not waste drinking water or agricultural use. Like Thorstein Veblen said, this is fracking conspicuous consumption for bourgeoise to say "You peasant! Get your sheep off my lawn. "

HOA's in some states (including Texas) can have tremendous power--to the point of being able to foreclose on your property for transgressions, including failure to pay HOA dues.