Merged Is ufology a pseudoscience?

[Correa Neto]

Well, the "studies" I remember from back then claimed cigar-shaped craft were the motherships.

 

[MG1962]

Well, the "studies" I remember from back then claimed cigar-shaped craft were the motherships.

Sorry I am not claiming there were no cigar shapes - but there were a lot other shapes associated with UFO motherships.

It's the same with the aliens themselves. Reports of 'greys' we not all that common before Close Encounters - but they absolutely dominate after the film's release

 

[Astrophotographer]

Actually some of the USAF people on the original project concluded UFOs are probably alien spacecraft. The lack of empirical proof, like giving the commanding general and a host of scientists a ride in one to a far away planet and back hasn't happened ( that we know of ), and that would be the only way to provide conclusive proof ( some people still wouldn't believe it ). So we all know that the word UFO is nothing more than a USAF euphemism.

Not necessarily. A crashed spaceship, an alien body, fragment from a crashed spaceship, or, "gasp", an alien ray gun would have done it. Either of those would have been "extraordinary" in my book and sealed the deal. I guess that means none of these things have been found.

 

[ufology]

Not necessarily. A crashed spaceship, an alien body, fragment from a crashed spaceship, or, "gasp", an alien ray gun would have done it. Either of those would have been "extraordinary" in my book and sealed the deal. I guess that means none of these things have been found.

There have been claims of recovered alien technology. But if it exists the public has no access to it. I'm a bit surprised that you would accept such spurious evidence as ship fragments and ray guns as "proof". Humans can build ray guns and space ships. An alien body is still beyond our means to create, but we have no material eveidence in the public domain that any alien bodies have ever been recovered. So again there is no "proof". We don't even have IMHO enough reasonable information to believe alien bodies were recovered. The Roswell case is interesting, but only to the extent that something unusual happened. The whole case is better than Kecksburg, but in the end amounts to the same thing regarding what should be believed. But if we want to get into the evidence on that one, we should move it over to the Evidence thread.

j.r.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

So should we apply this poor criteria of critical thinking to all anecdotes, or just the UFO anecdotes?

Cause yesterday I saw a Dragon at Central Park. It was real and spitting fire and I took a sword and stuck it in its heart and it cried in agony. And then the Green Lantern came flying and said "Come on kid, lets get out of here. There's some serious **** about to happen here" and we flew up the sky and then we landed here in Astoria and we smoked some weed but then Dr Evil came in a flying machine of some sort and stole the weed.

 

[RoboTimbo]

There have been claims of recovered alien technology.

Which someone thinking skeptically would not credit.

But if it exists the public has no access to it.

If pigs had wings they couldn't fly.

I'm a bit surprised that you would accept such spurious evidence as ship fragments and ray guns as "proof".

Amusing, perhaps that someone who wants so badly for pseudoaliens to exist that they believe unfalsifiable anecdotes would call material evidence that can be examined and tested "spurious". Your false indignation was wasted.

Humans can build ray guns and space ships. An alien body is still beyond our means to create, but we have no material eveidence in the public domain that any alien bodies have ever been recovered. So again there is no "proof". We don't even have IMHO enough reasonable information to believe alien bodies were recovered. The Roswell case is interesting, but only to the extent that something unusual happened. The whole case is better than Kecksburg, but in the end amounts to the same thing regarding what should be believed. If we want to get into that one we should move it over to the Evidence thread.

j.r.

The Roswell case would go even better in a thread about the cultural significance of UFOlogy. Yes it would be better than Kecksburg since nobody has yet conflated parachute dummies with pseudoaliens at Kecksburg like they did Roswell. Much better material for studying the psychology of how myth and legend are born.

 

[Stray Cat]

Re: Motherships
Thanks Correa Neto and MG1962, if anyone can give me a link that would be great.

Re: Cigar shaped
I've never really understood if this was supposed to represent blimp shaped or simply a disc viewed from the side and below.

 

[John Albert]

There have been claims of recovered alien technology. But if it exists the public has no access to it.

Well there you go. In other words, we're still stuck in storybook land.

I'm a bit surprised that you would accept such spurious evidence as ship fragments and ray guns as "proof".

I too would accept any of those things as reasonable proof of ET. Of course, the raygun or spaceship parts would need to have characteristics that defy any possible explanation of Earthly or human origin. For example, the use of materials and other engineering previously unknown to science.

Humans can build ray guns

Really?

An alien body is still beyond our means to create, but we have no material eveidence in the public domain that any alien bodies have ever been recovered. So again there is no "proof". We don't even have IMHO enough reasonable information to believe alien bodies were recovered.

Unfortunately, this is true.

The Roswell case is interesting, but only to the extent that something unusual happened.

There are plenty of worldly explanations for most of the verifiable details of Roswell, without jumping to the ET conclusion.

Who among you wouldn't be excited to have concrete, material proof of ET? I know I certainly would.

 

[Stray Cat]

The Roswell case would go even better in a thread about the cultural significance of UFOlogy. Yes it would be better than Kecksburg since nobody has yet conflated parachute dummies with pseudoaliens at Kecksburg like they did Roswell. Much better material for studying the psychology of how myth and legend are born.

Yup, it would be no good in Ramjet's 'Evidence' thread anyway, because it's not mentioned in Blue Book and IIRC, he said it wasn't a particularly good case anyway (which is why it's not on his list or something).

 

[RoboTimbo]

Yup, it would be no good in Ramjet's 'Evidence' thread anyway, because it's not mentioned in Blue Book and IIRC, he said it wasn't a particularly good case anyway (which is why it's not on his list or something).

Not that I'm anxious for another UFO thread, but that would be a good one to have in its own dedicated thread.

 

[Stray Cat]

Actually some of the USAF people on the original project concluded UFOs are probably alien spacecraft.

Hearsay

You cited a specific document to define UFOs, that document didn't mention alien space ships.

... [snip]... So we all know that the word UFO is nothing more than a USAF euphemism.

Or an 'abbreviation' as non UFOlogists call it, it stands for UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object... Even according to the definition you yourself provided.

As for "coloring" the USAF definition. It is a direct quote from microfilmed USAF documents.

Yes, and the "direct quote" doesn't mention alien space ships, so why do you colour it with your wishful interpretation?

 

[GeeMack]

Amusing, perhaps that someone who wants so badly for pseudoaliens to exist that they believe unfalsifiable anecdotes would call material evidence that can be examined and tested "spurious". Your false indignation was wasted.

And adds to the ever increasing body of evidence that "ufologists" will go to any desperate extreme to contort reality to suit their preconceived belief in aliens. Dishonest? Yes. But as for critical thinking, we haven't seen much of that yet.

 

[John Albert]

the PsuedoScience Hypothesis

In ufology, the acronym "PSH" actually stands for "psycho-social hypothesis," but I kind of like this interpretation better.

 

[Astrophotographer]

There have been claims of recovered alien technology. But if it exists the public has no access to it.

My point was that if the USAF had access to it, it would have been used as evidence for the then TOP SECRET EOTS. Instead, the real Top Secret report makes no mention of any crashed objects being recovered (as well as numerous other documents of various classifications). Acck...we are off topic again. Don't get me started.....

 

[ufology]

Is the stylised flying saucer on your organisation's logo meant to symbolise a predisposition to a particular mindset or a commitment to critical thinking?

Thanks for asking, and BTW, the Akenaten cartouche you use is pretty cool. The Egyptians had a lot of supernatural beliefs. Akhenaten is especially noted for abandoning traditional Egyptian polytheism and introducing worship centered on the Aten ... usually interpreted as a solar diety, but in more detailed translations as a "disk of the Sun", which was not the Sun itself, but a disk, globe, orb or sphere like the sun which carried their God within it. Quite interesting really.

On the USI emblem:

Star: Independence, illumination, navigation, serendipity, a star in the sky
White Ring: Continuity, preservation, eternal path of light
Gold Text: Value, truth, trust
Indigo Background: Sky, honesty, depth
UFO: The broken outline of an ambiguous object which is the core of the subject matter

There are other issues to reflect on in the colors and symbolism and shapes as well, not they all represent what the emblem is meant to emulate, but are interesting consider in the overall context ( e.g. eternity, the sea, the divine ... and so on ).


j.r.

 

[ufology]

My point was that if the USAF had access to it, it would have been used as evidence for the then TOP SECRET EOTS. Instead, the real Top Secret report makes no mention of any crashed objects being recovered (as well as numerous other documents of various classifications). Acck...we are off topic again. Don't get me started.....

Yes it's more than curious why the Roswell incident isn't mentioned in the sighting reports of the day. There was this "silence from topside" and a conspicuous lack of any mention or involvement by the UFO project, even though they had to have known about it. None of it makes any sense unless there was something that was recovered that they didn't want the UFO project to know about. But that still isn't enough information to base a belief in a crashed alien ship on.

I know what you mean ( don't get me started on Roswell ) ... that would be for the evidence thread anyway.

j.r.

 

[R.A.F.]

On the USI emblem...snip...

UFO: The broken outline of an ambiguous object which is the core of the subject matter.

Ambiguous??? A flying saucer shaped "outline" is ambiguous??

Sorry, but no...we understand and recognize your bias. There's no reason to hide it.

 

[ufology]

In ufology, the acronym "PSH" actually stands for "psycho-social hypothesis," but I kind of like this interpretation better.

Cute ... but it could lose its zing pretty fast if you slap it around indisciminantly.

j.r.

 

[ufology]

Ambiguous??? A flying saucer shaped object is ambiguous??

Sorry, but no...

It could be the profile of an unusual aircraft seen head-on. It could be just lines like contrails that coincidentally form a shape, or maybe the trace of a laser light show, maybe a hot air balloon ... maybe even ... dare I say ... swamp gas.

j.r.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yes it's more than curious why the Roswell incident isn't mentioned in the sighting reports of the day. There was this "silence from topside" and a conspicuous lack of any mention or involvement by the UFO project, even though they had to have known about it. None of it makes any sense unless there was something that was recovered that they didn't want the UFO project to know about. But that still isn't enough information to base a belief in a crashed alien ship on.

There you go out into the Wild Blue Yonder.

Maybe it wasn't included in the sightings reports of the day because the debris found were quickly identified as purely mundane parts of a balloon? It was only later the story grew by confabulation and the stretchers of tall tales.

I know what you mean ( don't get me started on Roswell ) ... that would be for the evidence thread anyway.

j.r.

OK. If you say so.