Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[ddt]

That would be like

825,688,433 people living in NYC without apartment buildings.

correction
101 X 3 million = 303,000,000 people living in NYC without apartment buildings.

The "without apartment buildings" is a non-sequitur, for the rest, it's pitiful some people apparently flunk their basic reading skills as well as their basic math skills.

Your incredulity about the population density - 400,000 people on 3 sq.m. - of the Warsaw ghetto is noted. That must indeed look very dense for a brave internet warrior working out of his mom's garage in American suburbia. Your sheer ignorance of history is noted too.

First of all, you're forgetting the Nazis jammed those Jews in into the ghetto - they didn't go there voluntary.

Secondly, such high population densities had not been unheard of. The Manchester district of Hulme - area 0.85 sq.m. - had a population of 80,000 in the second half of the 19th Century. Marx and Engels, in "The Condition of the Working Class in England", quote a pastor from Bethnal Green, a London borough, on his parish:

It contains 1,400 houses, inhabited by 2,795 families, comprising a population of 12,000. The space within which this large amount of population are living is less than 400 yards square (1,200 feet), and it is no uncommon thing for a man and his wife, with four or five children, and sometimes the grandfather and grandmother, to be found living in a room from ten to twelve feet square, and which serves them for eating and working in.

I'll leave the math what population density that is as an exercise to the reader.

It's about twice that of the Warsaw ghetto or of Hulme. Bloody Imperial measures.

The essential difference, of course, is that the British government during the Industrial Revolution did not erect fences around those overcrowded neighborhoods to pen in the proletariat and didn't forcefully limit their diet to one tenth of normal calorie intake.

 

[ddt]

I'm trying to not respond until I catch up with the thread

I'll help you. Can you name a single survivor? Here are the rules. Just one name, Dogzilla, one name.

 

[Dogzilla]

I'll help you. Can you name a single survivor? Here are the rules. Just one name, Dogzilla, one name.

That particular tangent doesn't interest me. If there's no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were ever buried where they are suppose to have been buried, the standard historiography is wrong. What happened to them doesn't change the fact that the standard historiography is wrong.

I'm more interested in that evidently dead tangent about real actual honest-to-Dog eyewitnesses to the gas chambers.

 

[Wroclaw]

Your refusal to recognize hard evidence when it is repeatedly presented to you is not the same thing as there being no evidence.

Please learn to distinguish.

 

[uke2se]

If there's no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were ever buried where they are suppose to have been buried, the standard historiography is wrong.

Good thing there is such evidence then.

 

[ddt]

That particular tangent doesn't interest me. If there's no evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were ever buried where they are suppose to have been buried, the standard historiography is wrong. What happened to them doesn't change the fact that the standard historiography is wrong.

Evasion noted. Your emphasis on "buried" seems a dishonest attempt to leave a way to weasel yourself out of this.

Tell us, what then happened to those 34,313 Dutch Jews who were transported to Sobibor? How many were alive on 1/1/1946? If Sobibor were not an extermination camp, it would actually be a breeze for you to name just one who survived the war. Of course, you can't, because your claims are utterly false.

 

[MG1962]

Secondly, such high population densities had not been unheard of. The Manchester district of Hulme - area 0.85 sq.m. - had a population of 80,000 in the second half of the 19th Century. Marx and Engels, in "The Condition of the Working Class in England", quote a pastor from Bethnal Green, a London borough, on his parish:

Well at the same time the burrow of Stephney held 285,000 people in 4.1 square miles as compared to Warsaw 400,000 3.5 square miles.

I would suggest some parts of Mexico city had unofficial density approaching those of pre war East End. And a number of Indian cities are definately closing in - but they might have apartments, so I guess they dont count.

Umm point of order - Didn't most of the ghetto in Warsaw have apartments. I am sure three story multi dwelling buildings was the standard. But hey what do I know

 

[LemmyCaution]

Umm point of order - Didn't most of the ghetto in Warsaw have apartments.

Yes. Nearly all accommodations were in apartments, many of these in buildings arranged around courtyards, which were central to the residents' social lives. These buildings were not, as you state, high rises, but they were multi-story dwellings.

 

[Saggy]

I'm more interested in that evidently dead tangent about real actual honest-to-Dog eyewitnesses to the gas chambers.

According to Yehuda Bauer, director of Yad Vashem, there is only one. In the preface to Filip Meuler's book on his three years in the gas chambers there Bauer writes "Filip Meuller's book is a unique document indeed. It is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw".

And, all you need to do to realize that the holohoax is a complete fraud is to read the book ! Honest to Dog.

 

[LemmyCaution]

According to Yehuda Bauer, director of Yad Vashem, there is only one. In the preface to Filip Meuler's book on his three years in the gas chambers there Bauer writes "Filip Meuller's book is a unique document indeed. It is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw".

And, all you need to do to realize that the holohoax is a complete fraud is to read the book ! Honest to Dog.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0481.shtml

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ip...EwAA#v=onepage&q=gideon greif we wept&f=false

How utterly strange.

 

[ddt]

According to Yehuda Bauer, director of Yad Vashem, there is only one. In the preface to Filip Meuler's book on his three years in the gas chambers there Bauer writes "Filip Meuller's book is a unique document indeed. It is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw".

And, all you need to do to realize that the holohoax is a complete fraud is to read the book ! Honest to Dog.

Don't you get tired of rehashing the same arguments? You forwarded that argument over half a year ago, and couldn't provide the exact quote.

 

[Wroclaw]

I'm more interested in that evidently dead tangent about real actual honest-to-Dog eyewitnesses to the gas chambers.

With whom would you like to begin?

 

[A'isha]

Don't you get tired of rehashing the same arguments? You forwarded that argument over half a year ago, and couldn't provide the exact quote.

Much as it pains me to admit it, the quote is real. You can read the Foreword for yourself at amazon.com, using the Look Inside feature.

Of course, Saggy is making quite the bizarre leap when he thinks the quote says or even implies what he thinks it does. But the quote itself, at least in the English version of the book, exists.

EDIT: The last line of the Foreword makes me think, as Meadmaker did (who first pointed out the above), that there's some translation issue that doesn't get across what Bauer meant, which was not that Mueller was the only person to witness the murders at Auschwitz period, but the only person to have been involved in the genocide process during virtually the entire period the death camp operated, and still survived. The first line, after all, describes Muller not as someone who saw Jews die and lived to tell the tale, but saw "the Jewish people", die, and later in the Foreword he talks about how "He saw the families, the townships and the cities of the Jewish people come, enter the house of death, and burn to ashes."

Unless Saggy wants to claim that Bauer thinks Jewish buildings were put into the gas chambers and crematoria, it's obvious that he's talking about something far more metaphorical than simply witnessing a few gassings and living to tell the tale.

 

[Saggy]

Much as it pains me to admit it, the quote is real. You can read the Foreword for yourself at amazon.com, using the Look Inside feature.

Of course, Saggy is making quite the bizarre leap when he thinks the quote says or even implies what he thinks it does. But the quote itself, at least in the English version of the book, exists.

The quote is perfectly explicit, it says that Filip Meuller is the only person who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw. And, the beauty of it is that the book by Meuller is a grotesque piece of trash, you only have to read it to know it. Anyone interested in the hoax should buy this book, or check it out from the library as I did.

It was a rare moment of partial candor for Bauer.

And, it shows that he the most 'serious' of the holohoax liars think that they can say absolutely anything without the faintest regard for its truth.

Incidentally, in the early, say 1979 (I don't know the exact date), editions of the book Bauer claims that 3.5 million died at Auschwitz. They revised that number in later editions.

 

[A'isha]

The quote is perfectly explicit, it says that Filip Meuller is the only person who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw.

No, it's not "perfectly explicit" at all. See above.

And, the beauty of it is that the book by Meuller is a grotesque piece of trash, you only have to read it to know it.

I'm sure it doesn't match the poetic and literary majesty of Mein Kampf, for you.

 

[LemmyCaution]

It was a rare moment of partial candor for Bauer.

The quotation is authentic, but it is a bad moment of poetic license from someone who should know better. Bauer's hyperbolic statement was wrong. So what? Check out the links I posted, or better yet answer Wroclaw's question. Unless you would rather repeat one erroneous statement to boredom.

 

[Saggy]

Bauer's hyperbolic statement was wrong. So what?

Of course Bauer's statement was wrong. Meuller's book is a collection of absurd lies, starting with the title 'Three Years in the Gas Chambers'. The holohoax liars have absolutely no regard for plausibility or consistency. If Meuller had taken the trouble to read Hoess's hoax 'confession' he would have known that the Nazis killed the Jews working in the gas chambers every two weeks or so.

So what? The fact that the director of Yad Vashem would endorse such an obvious pack of absurd lies tells you all you need to know about the holohoax.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Of course Bauer's statement was wrong. Meuller's book is a collection of absurd lies, starting with the title 'Three Years in the Gas Chambers'. The holohoax liars have absolutely no regard for plausibility or consistency. If Meuller had taken the trouble to read Hoess's hoax 'confession' he would have known that the Nazis killed the Jews working in the gas chambers every two weeks or so.

So what? The fact that the director of Yad Vashem would endorse such an obvious pack of absurd lies tells you all you need to know about the holohoax.

Are you going to keep avoiding Wroclaw's question?

And no, a mistake, a poor choice of words, hyperbole: these things are not the same as lies.

I suggest, as well, you read the book in the second link I posted for a reconstruction of the various SK's at Birkenau, how many existed, the number of times the squad was liquidated.

 

[Wroclaw]

The last line of the Foreword makes me think, as Meadmaker did (who first pointed out the above), that there's some translation issue that doesn't get across what Bauer meant

Any of you Jewish folks out there know your Shema Yisrael?

Does the last part of it ("Adonai echad") mean "God alone" or "one God"?

Why am I asking this?

Because Bauer's first language is Hebrew.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

... Filip Meuller ...

17 minutes. That's the amount of time between ANTPogo's "Much as it pains me to admit it, ..." to DDT and "No, it's not "perfectly explicit" at all. See above." [edit] to you.

For whose benefit, Saggy? Seriously.