The Roger Clemens Trial

[Molinaro]

Roger's turn!

It would seem that the evidence against Clemens is more concrete than what the prosecution had against Bonds. I expect a different outcome in this trial.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6765143/roger-clemens-trial-prosecution-makes-opening-statement


The main piece of physical evidence against him is cotton swabs and needles that test positive for Roger's DNA and steroids. They were saved by Brian McNamee who says he used them when injecting Roger with steroids in 2001. He said he saved them in case the steroid issue ever came to light and Roger decided to 'throw him under the bus'.

The defense counters that it was manufactured. That Brian did inject him with B-12 and cordisone. And that he added the steroids to it after the fact. They suggest that Brian did this in case he needed to blackmail the team into letting him keep his job, since he was at the time under a criminal investigation for rape. He was never charged.

The judge pointed out during pre-trial arguments that wouldn't it make a lot more sense to blackmail the 3 players on the team who openly admit having Brian inject him with steroids instead of having to make up evidence against someone that he did not inject?

I'm with the judge on that point.

 

[Aoidoi]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/14/judge-declares-mistrial-in-roger-clemens-case/?hpt=hp_t1

Mistrial. Dunno what happens next. I guess they have to refile.

 

[pgwenthold]

They have to abandon this farce.

It took them forever to find a jury that cared in the first place, and then the prosecution bungles the evidence and taints the jury they have?

Give it up, clueless.

 

[NoahFence]

Yea, I'd say give it up. Steroids are yesterday's news anyway. We got Casey Anthony to keep us occupied for now.

 

[TheNooch]

The main piece of physical evidence against him is cotton swabs and needles that test positive for Roger's DNA and steroids.

How nice they have a little sciency sounding medical trash, the real question remains, "Just how many cartwheels can he do"?

 

[Travis]

I think it's stupid to be prosecuting people for lying about doing something that should be legal anyways.

I'll be pissed if all this keeps Clemens out of the Hall of Fame.

 

[Molinaro]

I think it's stupid to be prosecuting people for lying about doing something that should be legal anyways.

I'll be pissed if all this keeps Clemens out of the Hall of Fame.

It better keep the lying, cheating scumbag out of the Hall.

 

[Travis]

And that's another thing. It pisses me off that people consider steroids "cheating." I'm sorry but that argument doesn't wash. More muscle does not give you pin point control in pitching. Nor does it allow you to see the ball better as a hitter.

Of course baseball thinks marijuana is a "performance enhancing drug" as well so that shows how retarded they are. I don't care if you mainline puppy blood while off the field I think whether you are in the Hall or not should be decided entirely by what you do on the field.

 

[pgwenthold]

Mike Golic always likes to point out, when someone in baseball gets caught with steroids, there is this huge moral outrage and people treat him like he is satan incarnate. When someone in football gets caught with steroids, the response is, "OK, when will he get back, and which games is he going to miss? Oh, he doesn't miss the game against the big rival? Whew, that's a relief!"

 

[LukeB]

And that's another thing. It pisses me off that people consider steroids "cheating."

Yeah it fills me with fury when people think doing something that's against the rules is somehow "cheating", what a crazy world we live in.

 

[Oystein]

And that's another thing. It pisses me off that people consider steroids "cheating." I'm sorry but that argument doesn't wash. More muscle does not give you pin point control in pitching. Nor does it allow you to see the ball better as a hitter.
...

I could disagree (I do in fact: Adding muscle DOES improve your control, as it easier to control fine co-ordination at 90% of muscle capacity than it is at 99%).

But I think I shall rather ask you: Why do baseballers, pitchers as well as batters, take steroids, if it doesn't improve their game?

 

[eeyore1954]

I haven't really paid much attention but why did congress have the hearings in the first place. Weren't there more important things for them to do.

 

[Molinaro]

And that's another thing. It pisses me off that people consider steroids "cheating." I'm sorry but that argument doesn't wash. More muscle does not give you pin point control in pitching. Nor does it allow you to see the ball better as a hitter.

It allows faster muscle recovery after exercise. That allows you to train more than is naturally possible and means than you will not feel as worn down as someone who does not take steroids who trains just as hard.

Although to be blunt, the people who deny that steroids are helpful, while so many athletes go to such great lengths to obtain and hide their use, strike me as completely irrational.

 

[TheJim]

It allows faster muscle recovery after exercise. That allows you to train more than is naturally possible and means than you will not feel as worn down as someone who does not take steroids who trains just as hard.

Although to be blunt, the people who deny that steroids are helpful, while so many athletes go to such great lengths to obtain and hide their use, strike me as completely irrational.

How is this different from Tylenol use, cortisone shots, surgery, or any of the hundreds of other pain killers and techniques that are perfectly legal in sports. Not only are they perfectly legal in sports not using them to recover faster a player would be killed by the very fans and media that complain about steroids and possibly be in violation of his contract if they did not use them.

I am with Travies on this. Its been what a decade now and I still do not even understand the argument against so called PED's. I am not being cute either I just don't get it. I have seen no one that is against PED's actually have a consistent view on the subject and want to ban other medical intervention including Tommy John's and Lysik. I have yet to find someone that can explain the difference between PED's and the steroids that are allowed like cortisone or for that matter between some of the advanced diets and supplements.

 

[mysteronyx]

Considering the arguments presented in this thread, the only solid ground an anti-juicer has is the fact that steroids were officially banned from baseball in 1991. A letter was sent out to all teams indicating that such substances are against the rules. While this policy wasn't really enforced in the 1990s, it's still a violation to have used them. There is no policy against medicine, surgery, etc.

source: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroids&num=3

Therefore, Clemens technically broke the rules (assuming he did take them), which arguably is justification for keeping him out of the Hall of Fame. Of course, there are several Hall of Famers who have broke the rules or cheated (think spitballers such as Gaylord Perry). So, is the violation of the steroid policy a good enough reason to ban people from the Hall of Fame? It seems contradictory to allow some cheaters and not others.

I'm entirely against asterisks because every era is different and has its own culture and climate. It's best to acknowledge the past 20 years as the steroid era and move on. Put everyone in the Hall of Fame - the infamy will live on with the names.

Speaking to the OP, if Clemens lied under oath, then the charge should be dealt with. Seems simple enough.

 

[Molinaro]

How is this different from Tylenol use, cortisone shots, surgery, or any of the hundreds of other pain killers and techniques that are perfectly legal in sports. Not only are they perfectly legal in sports not using them to recover faster a player would be killed by the very fans and media that complain about steroids and possibly be in violation of his contract if they did not use them.

When you exercise a muscle you cause damage to it a the scale of small groups of muscle fibers. Pain killers will ease the pain felt by that damage, it will not heal it. When your body heals that damage naturally, it reinforces the muscle, causing growth.

Steroids speed the healing of that damage, making the muscle ready for new growth faster.

They are not even remotely the same thing.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I think it's stupid to be prosecuting people for lying about doing something that should be legal anyways.

I'll be pissed if all this keeps Clemens out of the Hall of Fame.

If they all do steroids, the playing field is level. If none do, the playing field is level. If some abide by the rules, and some don't...

 

[Beerina]

Keep in mind he was supposedly lying to Congress -- The United States Congress, charged with spending almost $4 trillion a year, engaged in two wars around the world, or five, depending on how you count.

Wut? Drugs in baseball? Say it ain't so! Drop everything and let's hold hearings for the cameras!



I don't know if he used them or not, but I know Congress was wasting time posturing for the cameras so as to get re-elected, looking like they're "doing something". It's completely outrageous for someone to face jail because some of these buggers needed to preen in front of the cameras.

Beware the Pharisees standing on street corners, praying where people can see them.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Keep in mind he was supposedly lying to Congress -- The United States Congress, charged with spending almost $4 trillion a year, engaged in two wars around the world, or five, depending on how you count.

Wut? Drugs in baseball? Say it ain't so! Drop everything and let's hold hearings for the cameras!



I don't know if he used them or not, but I know Congress was wasting time posturing for the cameras so as to get re-elected, looking like they're "doing something". It's completely outrageous for someone to face jail because some of these buggers needed to preen in front of the cameras.

Beware the Pharisees standing on street corners, praying where people can see them.

Well yeah, the utter hypocrisy of it all.

This has probably been talked about before here but I couldn't care less if some "open" sports leagues were permitted. Sheesh. Let these guys turn themselves into gorillas if they want. So what. Not my business.

So I don't mean an intention to force it on them. States should be in charge of sports. There's no enumerated powers here for congress and they have an historic budget deficit in the midst of a worldwide debt crisis, rampant money creation by the Federal Reserve, Wars, an out-of-control security state tyranny rapidly developing...

And they want to take down some baseball players.

 

[Resume]

If they all do steroids, the playing field is level. If none do, the playing field is level. If some abide by the rules, and some don't...

This is the issue: them that did, them that didn't. What this era did to me was kill my love for baseball. Thanks Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, et al.

Assclowns.