General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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bikerdruid said:
wrong...see above.
as for the 800 children, everyone claims that that claim is inflated...ok.
so are 400 dead children more acceptable?
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Are you going to continue to cut your number in half until we hit the right number?

they are only palestinians, after all.
we all know that killing palestinians is just fine.
(i'm learning skeptic's rhetorial technique.)
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Your use of hyperbole is quite disgusting, actually, especially since you believe your exaggerations until the truth is pointed out to you. Shame on you.
 
IDB87 said:
Are you going to continue to cut your number in half until we hit the right number?
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how many ded palestinian children is an acceptable number to you?
are you going to dodge the question too?

as for hyperbole....i merely substituted 'palestinians' for 'jews', from skeptic's rhetoric.
do you criticise him too?
 
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bikerdruid said:
how many ded palestinian children is an acceptable number to you?
are you going to dodge the question too?
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Perhaps you don't think it's rude to answer a question with a question..

When you're ready to answer mine (and many others), perhaps I'll consider entertaining your loaded question.
 
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bikerdruid said:
dodge of the question duly noted.
how many dead children is acceptable to you?
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Tell us all what Israel is allowed to do when the rulers of Gaza, Hamas, continuously launch missiles at Israeli towns.

There would be 0 dead children on either side if Hamas didn't decide to wage war on Israel. And Hamas goes out of their way to boost the numbers of dead children, operating out of schools, hospitals, and even in UN safe houses!

Israel conducted a necessary military operation in a densely populated urban area, and did it with such care that the numbers of non-combatants killed were at unprecedented low levels.

I challenge you to find any comparable operation in any other war ever that killed fewer non-combatants. You won't, of course. Nor will you place any blame at all on your beloved "freedom fighters", who deliberately launch attacks from civilian areas in order to have dead babies to parade in front of TV cameras to tug at the heartstrings of well-meaning but clueless useful idiots the world over.

I know bikerdruid won't see this video because he's on dialup, but others might.



And this classic...

 
bikerdruid said:
how many ded palestinian children is an acceptable number to you?
are you going to dodge the question too?

as for hyperbole....i merely substituted 'palestinians' for 'jews', from skeptic's rhetoric.
do you criticise him too?
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You weren't engaging in hyperbole when you claimed 800 dead children from Operation Cast Lead.

You were lying. And you refuse to even own up to it. You must know that your characterizaton of Israel beig a "treacherous, murderous, oppressive" country has no rational basis when you resort to lies to support it.
 
Skeptic said:
Bikerdruid:

First of all, the Nazis and the KKK most definitely DO consider themselves fighters against the evil opressive folks who are destroying the Aryan race. Somehow you don't believe them, but you DO believe Hamas. Besides, if Hamas is such a fighter against opression, why is Gaza a one-party theocratic dictatorship?

Second, you missed the point of my analogy. The point is that when you call Hamas "freedom fighters" this is support for them -- just like calling the KKK "freedom fighters" or the Nazis "freedom fighters" would be support for them. So why do you keep saying you don't support Hamas? You openly do. You don't support the KKK or the Nazis, but who said you do?
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Virus said:
History's dirty little secret that the anti-Israel left don't want you to know:

Palestinians were better off under Israeli occupation.

They were three times richer.

Life expectancy went up.

They were ruled by a less corrupt civil administration.

They had more freedom than under the Arafat gangsters.

Israel brought in millions in investments. They built roads, water treatment plants, TV stations and other infrastructure. Tourism flourished.

Palestinians could cross the border and work in Israel. Earning good wages.

The Palestinians gave it all up in the Intifada.

A Palestinian state would be a corrupt Arab dictatorship. Everyone knows this. But we're told to want one anyway.
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WildCat said:
Tell us all what Israel is allowed to do when the rulers of Gaza, Hamas, continuously launch missiles at Israeli towns.

There would be 0 dead children on either side if Hamas didn't decide to wage war on Israel. And Hamas goes out of their way to boost the numbers of dead children, operating out of schools, hospitals, and even in UN safe houses!

Israel conducted a necessary military operation in a densely populated urban area, and did it with such care that the numbers of non-combatants killed were at unprecedented low levels.

I challenge you to find any comparable operation in any other war ever that killed fewer non-combatants. You won't, of course. Nor will you place any blame at all on your beloved "freedom fighters", who deliberately launch attacks from civilian areas in order to have dead babies to parade in front of TV cameras to tug at the heartstrings of well-meaning but clueless useful idiots the world over.

I know bikerdruid won't see this video because he's on dialup, but others might.



And this classic...

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All of these posts are true.

Calling a group that promotes the genocidal extermination of another race "freedom fighters" is definitely supporting that group.

Israel and the rest of the world will have to deal with Hamas as representatives of some Palestinians, but that does not mean that they have to accept or allow Hamas's genocidal racism, or allow them to use children as human shields while launching terrorist attacks on civilians.

If people actually supported peace or rights for the Palestinians, than they would not support Hamas, or call them "freedom fighters."

There are solutions to this crisis, but that does not mean that we have to provide legitimacy to racist terrorist groups like Hamas.
 
bikerdruid said:
pardalis...how many dead palestinian children are acceptable to you?
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Acceptable? What does that mean, exactly?

I would put the number right around the number of children your "freedom fighter" Hamas heroes purposely put into the line of fire during their "freedom fighting" operations. Sound good?
 
bikerdruid said:
come on, guys......
what is an acceptable number of dead palestinian children.....verrrrry simple question.
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Zero. The number of acceptable dead children of any nation is zero.


Everyone on this board would feel that way, and almost everyone in the world would feel that way including the Israelis.

There is one group in partlicular that does not feel that way though, and that is Hamas.

Hamas would not have used Palestinian children as human shileds in order to attack Israeli civilians which included Israeli children if they were not aiming for dead children on both sides.

Unfortunately for their families, Hamas achieved their goal and got their wish of dead Palestinian children that they could use as political fodder to attack Israel with.

Most people would condem Hamas for that. You apparently have not.

I would hope that you would value the lives of Palestinian children and Israeli children more than to support a group that is actively trying to get as many of both groups killed for political ammunition as possible.

There is a way for the Palestinians to obtain more rights, there is a way for Palestinians to truly fight for freedom, but Hamas's tactics of terrorism and aggression towards people on both sides of this conflict couldn't be any farther from the powerful tools of peace needed for the Palestinians to really achieve true freedom.


These are true freedom fighters who are actually working for Palestinian rights and freedom: http://www.seedsofpeace.org/

When you actually look at the goals and actions of Hamas, there is nothing that promotes the rights and freedom of the Palestinians: Gaza Terrorists Resume Rocket Campaign Hamas says still seeks Israel's destruction
 
The Fool said:
OK...you want them to relinquish any claim on east Jerusalem and abandon any right of return claims.....Plus a potential list of other things that I would classify as simply obeying international laws......So I guess The jerusalem thing is ok for the Israelis to say is non negotiable but not the palestinians...
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Go ahead, build up that straw-man. I'm curious to see how huge it's gonna get before you valiantly take it down.

The Fool said:
I don't really want the palestinians particularly to have restrictions on free speech as you seem to want....how would that be enforced?
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Ooh, nice! The guy who normally argues that speech is restricted everywhere it's just a matter of to what degree, suddenly can't figure out how it can be done in this special circumstance.

The Fool said:
as for militarization....are they allowed a defence force??
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What do you think they need? And for what purpose?

The Fool said:
oh yes....any compromises you think the Israelis should do??
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Not so fast. Now that your memory has been jogged, can you think of any ways Palestinians could/should compromise? Or are you at about your limit?
 
The Fool said:
you forgot to tell me which foreign armies you would be content to live under if it produced a better economy.

Or is the requirement to be happy smiling people holding hands under foreign occupation only apply to Palestinians?
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Let's say Hamas were democratically elected to head the government of Australia, and they started doing all the same things in Australia that they've been doing in the Gaza Strip such as shooting political rivals, shooting up weddings where there was music and dancing, stomping on the rights of women and homosexuals, and so forth, then a couple years later was "liberated" and "occupied" by the armed forces of New Zealand... which would you prefer to live under?
 
Mycroft said:
Not so fast. Now that your memory has been jogged, can you think of any ways Palestinians could/should compromise? Or are you at about your limit?
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sorry son, not prepared to play this game. pointless debating anything with an opinion free zone.
 
Mycroft said:
Let's say Hamas were democratically elected to head the government of Australia, and they started doing all the same things in Australia that they've been doing in the Gaza Strip such as shooting political rivals, shooting up weddings where there was music and dancing, stomping on the rights of women and homosexuals, and so forth, then a couple years later was "liberated" and "occupied" by the armed forces of New Zealand... which would you prefer to live under?
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Thats a funny story :)
have you considered writing childrens books?

I'm going to tell you something reeeeely funny. As an Australian citizen I would prefer not to live under foreign occupation. Maybe you like the Idea....can I suggest China would be a good foreign power for you to be a minion of.
 
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