This Whole Debt Limit Thing

[BenBurch]

Faith is not rational.

And we just saw proof of that.

 

[NoScotsman]

In the past, I would've said that Republicans only act selfishly and in the interest in corporations; but here they prove me wrong ...by acting in absolutely no one's best interest.

 

[BenBurch]

In the past, I would've said that Republicans only act selfishly and in the interest in corporations; but here they prove me wrong ...by acting in absolutely no one's best interest.

They are looking at how they plan to spin this;

1. We default; "Obama leads nation to ruin, news at 11."
2. Obama blinks and they get exactly what they want in terms of cuts without additional revenue; "Republicans save country, Obama is a loser, news at 11."
3. They finally compromise; "Obama uses extortion to take more of YOUR MONEY, news at 11."

As they see it, it's a win-win situation.

 

[PGH]

I really want to give the republicans some credit. The debt is important. It's not something that should just be ignored as we continue to run up the greatest bar tab in history. Either we start to be responsible and pay this down or we really will face potential ruin.

But they aren't serious about it. It's just a political football to them. That much is clear. Much of it can be laid at their own feet but they constantly try to pin decades of financial irresponsibility on Obama.

They were far more serious about creating the problem than they are about solving it.

 

[NoScotsman]

They are looking at how they plan to spin this;

1. We default; "Obama leads nation to ruin, news at 11."
2. Obama blinks and they get exactly what they want in terms of cuts without additional revenue; "Republicans save country, Obama is a loser, news at 11."
3. They finally compromise; "Obama uses extortion to take more of YOUR MONEY, news at 11."

As they see it, it's a win-win situation.

I'm surprised that the recent example of Clinton vs. Gingrich (Gov't shutdown) isn't cautioning their approach on this issue. The Armageddon approach to politics isn't "winning politics" ... but Republicans pursue it nonetheless.

 

[BenBurch]

I'm surprised that the recent example of Clinton vs. Gingrich (Gov't shutdown) isn't cautioning their approach on this issue. The Armageddon approach to politics isn't "winning politics" ... but Republicans pursue it nonetheless.

They think they learned how not to do it. What they should have learned is to NOT DO IT.

 

[jnelso99]

Obama knows HOW to play nuclear hardball, the question is whether he has the spine to do it, knowing how it will be falsely spun by the nattering nabobs of negativity in the media.

I seriously don't get this. It's been demonstrated that the media will criticize Obama for literally anything, so why should he care what they think now? I mean, they criticized him for taking a few minutes to fill out NCAA basketball tournament picks, for crying out loud.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

I really want to give the republicans some credit. The debt is important. It's not something that should just be ignored as we continue to run up the greatest bar tab in history. Either we start to be responsible and pay this down or we really will face potential ruin.

While I'll grant that the debt is something that needs to be addressed, the debt ceiling is not where you should be leveraging that. The debt exists already. There's money we are going to have to owe. The debt we owe is going to go up whether we raise the debt ceiling or not. If we don't we just won't be able to issue bonds to pay for what we already owe.

 

[PGH]

While I'll grant that the debt is something that needs to be addressed, the debt ceiling is not where you should be leveraging that. The debt exists already. There's money we are going to have to owe. The debt we owe is going to go up whether we raise the debt ceiling or not. If we don't we just won't be able to issue bonds to pay for what we already owe.

I would gladly take political advice from either zombies or kitties but I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to an unholy combination of the two!!

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
So you don't think Obama was being deliberately deceptive? Because the facts suggest he surely should know that all the government's expenses are currently being exceeded by revenues.

Yes the key word is currently. Perhaps you are unaware that it is not currently august.

NOTE:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/12/eveningnews/main20078928.shtml?tag=strip

July 12, 2011

(CBS News) WASHINGTON - It was a striking thing today to see the President of the United States say that he cannot guarantee the 27 million Social Security checks that are due to be mailed on August 3rd.

So let me get this straight, geni.

You are claiming that Obama and his administration can't even look into the future THREE WEEKS and know that revenues will exceed spending on the key items that were mentioned above? And yet they could promise that the Stimulus, nearly a trillion dollars in added debt that they forced through Congress over the objections of republicans, would prevent unemployment from exceeding 8%? Time to

 

[Upchurch]

You are claiming that Obama and his administration can't even look into the future THREE WEEKS and know that revenues will exceed spending on the key items that were mentioned above?

You don't really know what this thread is about, do you?

 

[leftysergeant]

The Armageddon approach to politics isn't "winning politics" ... but Republicans pursue it nonetheless.

Isn't that a symptom of mental illness?

 

[johnny karate]

You are claiming that Obama and his administration can't even look into the future THREE WEEKS and know that revenues will exceed spending on the key items that were mentioned above?

We're dealing with an unprecedented and potentially catastrophic scenario. You can read about it in detail here, where Politifact rates Obama's statement "Half True" in acknowledgment of the inherent uncertainty.

And yet they could promise that the Stimulus, nearly a trillion dollars in added debt that they forced through Congress over the objections of republicans, would prevent unemployment from exceeding 8%? Time to

I look forward to the quotes you will provide from anyone in the Obama administration making a "promise" that the unemployment rate would not exceed 8% if the stimulus passed.

 

[BeAChooser]

We're dealing with an unprecedented and potentially catastrophic scenario.

Yeah, that was the same thing democrats claimed in 2008/2009 about the recession, insisting that we had to throw a HUGE pile of stimulus money at it and promising that if we did, unemployment would never exceed 8%.

Politifact rates

Politifact is not exactly an unbiased source.

I look forward to the quotes you will provide from anyone in the Obama administration making a "promise" that the unemployment rate would not exceed 8% if the stimulus passed.

LOL! This shows how totally uniformed you are, jk. Christina Romer, head of Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, the Vice President's top economic adviser, published a report in January of 2009, titled "The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" (http://www.thompson.com/images/thomp...onplanjan9.pdf ). Their report projected (see Figure 1) that without the stimulus, unemployment would hit 8.5 percent in 2009 and then rise to a peak of about 9 percent in 2010. But with the stimulus, they predicted the unemployment rate would peak at just under 8 percent. It's there in black and white.

Why even democrat Barney Frank showed he could read, unlike you:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...dumb-to-predict-no-higher-than-8-unemployment

Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, called into question the wisdom of projections issued by the Obama administration during the congressional fight over the stimulus bill that argued it would prevent higher levels of joblessness.

"President Obama, whom I greatly admire ... when the economic recovery bill — we're supposed to call it the 'recovery bill,' not the 'stimulus' bill; that's what the focus groups tell us — he predicted or his aides predicted at the time that if it passed, unemployment would get under 8 percent," Frank said Tuesday evening during an appearance on the Fox Business Network. "That was a dumb thing to do."

The administration famously released a chart during the fight over its signature $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) showing that, if that package were enacted, unemployment would not exceed 8 percent. The projection, authored by Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) Chairwoman Christina Romer, argued that without the stimulus, unemployment would reach a high of 9 percent in the third quarter of 2010.

Why even the leftist Time magazine got this one right (unlike you):

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1910208,00.html

Back in early January, when Barack Obama was still President-elect, two of his chief economic advisers — leading proponents of a stimulus bill — predicted that the passage of a large economic-aid package would boost the economy and keep the unemployment rate below 8%.

Even leftist NPR was listening (unlike you):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106397685

Obama is in a difficult position. He has to defend his $787 billion economic stimulus package at a time when there are few visible signs that it has had an effect. Unemployment is at 9.5 percent, even though the White House predicted in January that with the stimulus bill, it would rise to only about 8 percent.

Why even the leftist Washington Post said Christine Romer admitted that she said the jobless rate would stay below 8 percent:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080606271.html

Economist Christina Romer regrets saying jobless rate would stay below 8 percent

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

He has not a lot of choices under the law. ALL debts have to come before ALL benefits. Period.

Servicing "ALL debts" amounts to $189 billion or so, I think we can handle that. Before cutting SS I'd like to see military spending cuts, and actual medical system reform (price caps, force pharmacorps to charge us what they charge the rest of the world, etc).

 

[Mike!]

Which means nothing, really.

Even less than nothing here.

 

[Dymanic]

Yeah, that was the same thing democrats claimed in 2008/2009 about the recession, insisting that we had to throw a HUGE pile of stimulus money at it and promising that if we did, unemployment would never exceed 8%.

1.There is no definitive formulation of a wicked problem (defining wicked problems is itself a wicked problem).
2.Wicked problems have no stopping rule.
3.Solutions to wicked problems are not true-or-false, but better or worse.
4.There is no immediate and no ultimate test of a solution to a wicked problem.
5.Every solution to a wicked problem is a "one-shot operation"; because there is no opportunity to learn by trial and error, every attempt counts significantly.
6.Wicked problems do not have an enumerable (or an exhaustively describable) set of potential solutions, nor is there a well-described set of permissible operations that may be incorporated into the plan.
7.Every wicked problem is essentially unique.
8.Every wicked problem can be considered to be a symptom of another problem.
9.The existence of a discrepancy representing a wicked problem can be explained in numerous ways. The choice of explanation determines the nature of the problem's resolution.
10.The planner has no right to be wrong (planners are liable for the consequences of the actions they generate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem

 

[BeAChooser]

The socialists/communists now infesting all levels of our government, media and society are clearly a "wicked problem".

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Besides, the trust fund has enough in it to send out SS checks for several years with no debt limit increase. Obama was either lying or doesn't understand that SS bonds are already part of the debt.

 

[BeAChooser]

Obama was either lying or doesn't understand that SS bonds are already part of the debt.

No President could possibly be THAT stupid. So ....