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Evolution a hoax?

I find it very hard to believe the Earth has just enough gravity to keep me comfortably attached to the ground - without either crushing me into meatloaf or sending me wildly sailing through the air with every step I take - without the intervention of some higher intelligence.
It's worse than that: Gravity actually varies from place to place. Each level of gravity must have been designed to fit with whatever life forms are going to exist in that spot!

We even think gravity is different on different planets! How do we know there is supposed to be only one, single law of gravity to account for all of that?

I don't think so!!

;)
 
I find it very hard to believe the Earth has just enough gravity to keep me comfortably attached to the ground - without either crushing me into meatloaf or sending me wildly sailing through the air with every step I take - without the intervention of some higher intelligence.

That's why I believe "gravos" (as I like to call them) have it all wrong when it comes down to NeoNewtonism (which they call their "Theory of gravity").

No, it's obvious to me that Intelligent Falling is the truth!
 
That's why I believe "gravos" (as I like to call them) have it all wrong when it comes down to NeoNewtonism (which they call their "Theory of gravity").

No, it's obvious to me that Intelligent Falling is the truth!

Heretic! It is clearly intelligent holding things down!

Except for birds. They're cunning and slippery and escape though the holders fingers.

And airplanes. The IH likes to run around holding them up while making engine noises.
 
Masses of comments of yours have marked you as someone who really is just clinging to some form of Creationism. The only benefit I see from people like Wowbagger continuing this discussion is that it is public; others can see the arguments and judge for themselves what makes sense.
The commentary and debunking of randman's silliness is interesting and educational, this in itself is a worthy purpose even beyond exposing IDiocy for what it is.
 
Of course they are. You've already made up your mind, and aren't gonna let a little thing like actual scientific evidence sway you.
The more I see believers repeating unthinkingly, mantra-like, the long disproved tenets of their faith the more I'm convinced it's done as a form of protective spell to stop themselves from thinking about that faith, to quell the inner voices of sanity and doubt.
 
So genetic and morphological homologous structures DO NOT necessarily indicate common ancestry. When evos say, well look here, chimps and humans for example share a common homolog and so "we know" they shared a common ancestor, they are actually wrong.

They don't know any such thing.

They know there is a similar structure or genetic sequence. They don't know it got there and no matter how much they say they know, they are just distorting what the data does and does not say.

You could suggest shared ancestry, but you cannot know if that's the case. Could be similar function and design. Could be a predisposition of certain chemical sequences to result in the same mutation or error. Could be similar environmental contamination. Could be a lot of things.

What we do know is that homologous genetic sequences can be present in different species and the evidence suggests that can be WITHOUT a shared ancestor passing those sequences down, right?
 
I won't argue your facts, but I will respectfully point out that we are not in a bar, or at a conference, and most of us are not scientists. You can frame or justify it any way you want, but we are on a discussion forum. Whether you look docile compared to someone who gets in a screaming match in a bar somewhere is immaterial.
Fair enough.

Calling someone a liar based on personal incredulity alone not only breaks both of those rules, it is bad logic as well.
A fair point, and please let me clarify: I did not call randman a liar based on personal incredulity, mine or his. I called him a liar based on his repeated refusal to acknowledge that other people have addressed his arguments, and his continued use of arguments which have been thoroughly disproven. It speaks to how reliable a source randman is, which is pertanent information--many of the links he's provided as evidence have been shown to be flawed, outdated, or frauds, thus the evidence he presents should be viewed far more critically than is normal. I'll admit that just because someone stole a car once, it doesn't follow that the car they're selling you is stolen--I'm just saying that if a known car theif is selling you a car, checking with the police is a good idea before you buy it. (To be frank, I'm using your post as a means to explain my point--you gave me an opening, and demonstrated that I may not have been as clear as I should have been.)
 
So genetic and morphological homologous structures DO NOT necessarily indicate common ancestry. When evos say, well look here, chimps and humans for example share a common homolog and so "we know" they shared a common ancestor, they are actually wrong.
Wrong: genetic and morphological homologous structures DO indicate common ancestry.
It is just that they do not mandate common ancestry.
When biologists say that chimps and humans for example share a common homology and so "we know" they shared a common ancestor, they are actually right because a common homology is one of the properties of having a common ancestor.
There is other evidence that humans and chimpanzee share a common ancestry. The most convincing evidence to me is common defects (ERVs) between humans and chimpanzee.
 
Wrong: genetic and morphological homologous structures DO indicate common ancestry.
It is just that they do not mandate common ancestry.
This leads into a serious flaw in cladistics--it assumes, in essence, that evolution is hard. A "good" cladistic tree is robust (can stand up to bootstrapping and jack knifing, among other statistical tests) and has the minimum number of mutations/changes. This is a good starting point, but it's not necessarily true that evolution does this. A cladogram, it must be remembered, is a hypothesis, based on very specific assumptions, and all hypotheses need to be tested prior to acceptance.

The other major issue, as I see it, is that of collapsed clades. A cladistics program such as PAST assumes that each node has two branches. However, that's not always what happens in nature. Sometimes one population simultaniously gives rise to multiple sub-populations, a few of which form new species. A cladistics program would try to show which species among the daughter species gave rise to which other daughter species, ignoring the fact that they all arose at the roughly the same time from the same species. It's one of a number of things ammonite specialists are arguing about.

This is what kills me about pseudoscientists in general--they ignore the real debates and the real concerns within scientific diciplines, preferring fantasy debates and made-up concerns. If randman could use his ideas to resolve these issues with cladistics I'd be extatic--but he doesn't seem to want to help with these concerns. He's stuck on problems that any mammologist or herpitologist could resoulve in five minutes (and which were resolved within ten posts here).
 
So genetic and morphological homologous structures DO NOT necessarily indicate common ancestry. When evos say, well look here, chimps and humans for example share a common homolog and so "we know" they shared a common ancestor, they are actually wrong.

They don't know any such thing.

They know there is a similar structure or genetic sequence. They don't know it got there and no matter how much they say they know, they are just distorting what the data does and does not say.

Just as with your nonsense about the molecular clock, what you think are devastating, fatal criticisms are only so in your head due to your own ignorance about the subject. And, just as with the molecular clock, the "fatal flaws" in functional divergence detection and phylogenetic inference are no such thing, and in fact are not only known to evolutionary scientists, they're so well understood that those "flaws" in themselves are useful elements in applying those methodologies. The supplemental pdf in the Prestin paper contains references to a ton of papers about this, in fact, such as Bayesian inference in phylogeny.

And even all that is setting aside the fact that, often, multiple analytical methods are used, such as in this paper that uses both paleontological data and molecular data to reconstruct echolocation evolution in bats.

You could suggest shared ancestry, but you cannot know if that's the case. Could be similar function and design. Could be a predisposition of certain chemical sequences to result in the same mutation or error. Could be similar environmental contamination. Could be a lot of things.

As I said above, scientists have plenty of methods at their disposal to figure out what is what. To the point that scientists have been able to robustly examine various phylogenetic relationships in the bat family, including relating those to echolocation evolution and the family's biogeographical history, as well as being able to study the evolution of particular echolocation calls in the various bat species (with the indication that echolocation, in addition to evolving separately in bats and cetaceans, actually evolved separately in certain bat species as well).

What we do know is that homologous genetic sequences can be present in different species and the evidence suggests that can be WITHOUT a shared ancestor passing those sequences down, right?

Reality Check already addressed this.
 
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So genetic and morphological homologous structures DO NOT necessarily indicate common ancestry. When evos say, well look here, chimps and humans for example share a common homolog and so "we know" they shared a common ancestor, they are actually wrong.

They don't know any such thing.

They know there is a similar structure or genetic sequence. They don't know it got there and no matter how much they say they know, they are just distorting what the data does and does not say.

You could suggest shared ancestry, but you cannot know if that's the case. Could be similar function and design. Could be a predisposition of certain chemical sequences to result in the same mutation or error. Could be similar environmental contamination. Could be a lot of things.

What we do know is that homologous genetic sequences can be present in different species and the evidence suggests that can be WITHOUT a shared ancestor passing those sequences down, right?

Similar genetic sequences, alone, might not clinch the case. But...

...there is a convergence of evidence from other lines of investigation, that help strengthen the case:

1. Morphology (which is also dismissed by creationsts, though it does match the genetic data, for the most part, and the few spots where it doesn't we can account for it in other ways)

2. Immunology (which follows the same branching tree relationships as everything else, and in fact this was studied very closely, for evolutionary clues, before technology allowed genetics to be the principle source of study)

3. Embriology (which has moved on waaay past Haeckel)

4. evolutionary trends that have been recorded since the first of such studies were done,

Etc. I am sure some of my friends can name other things.

ALL of these things, and more, point to the same story. If Intelligent Design can show us a new line of investigation that breaks from this trend, that would be interesting.

But, in a sense you are right: One line of evidence might not cut it. Good thing we have more than one!
 
I'm bored, and randman insulted my skills in the area, so I'm going to look more closely at his "aquatic lizards evolved into whales" link.

link said:
The word whale, in biological discussion, refers not only to the large marine mammals commonly designated by that name, but also to other, smaller members of the order Cetacea such as dolphins, porpoises, belugas, and narwhals. In the discussion that follows, whales is used in this broader sense.
This is a bad sign right from the start: they don't go into ANY depth in terms of taxonomy. They redefine a common name, when in fact they wish to talk about a specific, and named, clade. It suggests--it doesn't prove, but it strongly suggests--that they haven't done their due diligence. No, to be fair, scientists often use common names. However, not when they're dealing with the intricacies of taxonomy. Later on say whales--here you need to show the specific taxa you're talking about, who named what, and why.

The accepted account of the evolution of whales is poorly documented in terms of fossils. Relatively few marine fossils of any kind are known from the Paleocene, the first epoch of the Cenozoic Era, the so-called Age of Mammals.
This one just made my head spin. It's a complete non-sequitor. Sure, there may be valid reasons for discussing the Paleocene in an article about Cetacean evolution--but the authors don't give us any. And this is a serious problem. There's simply not that much rock exposed from the Paleocene (compared to other periods), which means that we're naturally not going to find much there. Worse, it's a recovery fauna, one of two classic recovery faunas (the other being the Early Triassic). Pointing out that there's not many fossils from any but a handful of invertebrate taxa is akin to say "There's not much left after a forest fire".

The earliest fossil forms normally classified as whales date from the ensuing epoch, the Eocene (~54–34 mya).1
Okay....The author is trying to suggest that we need to explain an ecological vacuum. "There wasn't enough food in the sea during the recovery from the K/Pg event to sustain large predators, much less warm-blooded ones." Done.

Oh wait, it keeps going...

The usual story about the evolution of whales says that they, and all the other placental mammals (as has already been explained, evolved from a "small, primitive, generalized" terrestrial placental mammal living in the late Cretaceous Period (approx. 70 mya). Many even take it for granted that whale ancestors first evolved into ungulates and only later became whales.
Let's leave aside the VERY casual language here (it's another bad sign" and go with the meat: The author is dismissing the commonly accepted view. There's one citation here--ONE--and the rest is mere hand-waving.

The creatures usually proposed as whale precursors are the mesonychid ungulates of the middle and lower Paleocene. But writers who assert this radical transformation actually occurred rarely mention that late Paleocene fossils documenting the transition between mesonychids and the earliest recognized whales are entirely lacking.3
The highlighted part is pure sensationalism which has no place in science. Leaving that aside, this is the old "There are no transitional fossils" argument.

Robert L. Carroll said:
It is not possible to identify a sequence of mesonychids leading directly to whales, although some teeth now recognized as belonging to primitive whales were originally described as from mesonychids. All adequately known mesonychids were terrestrial in most aspects of the skeleton, and some show specializations for cursorial [i.e., running] locomotion.
Interesting note:

Wiki said:
Robert Lynn Carroll (born May 5, 1938, Kalamazoo, Michigan) is a vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians and reptiles.[1]
So this guy isn't exactly an expert. Probably still good, but he's a bit out of his field. And the (undoubtably cherry-picked) quote doesn't even say what the author of randman's article thinks it says. What this is saying is that there's a gap, yes--but then he give evidence that the gap isn't really that big. There's clear morphological similarities between cetaceans and mesonychids. This isn't uncommon in the fossil record--we can only work with the rock we have, and the stratigraphic record is more akin to a tree after it's gone through a wood chipper than it is to a layercake.

Then the author flagrantly insults the status quo:

If you think in terms of divergence and phylogenies, you
cannot hope to fully understand the comments concerning
the evolution of whales on this page, nor the arguments
concerning the Mesozoic origins of mammals on the other
pages of this section.
Enough said.

But an examination of the currently accepted reconstruction of Pakicetus (Figure 9.3) will convince most readers that Pakicetus, as a whole, is more like a dog than a whale.
This is an appeal to the average man. The problem is, taxonomists aren't the average man--they're experts.

On the same web page,4 maintained by the laboratory of Hans Thewissen, a widely recognized authority on early fossil cetaceans, where Figure 9.3 originally appeared, another illustration shows the skulls of two pakicetids (Ichthyolestes and Pakicetus) are comparable to that of a modern coyote (Canis latrans). Saying that the evolution of whales started with this doglike animal is sheer nonsense when fossils that long predate it are actually very similar to whales (see figures 9.4 and 9.5 below).
This one just hurts. Hans Thewissen is discussing functional morphology in comparing the skulls of those pakicetids, NOT taxonomy. Those are two very different fields. In functional morphology you find whatever you can that looks like the thing you're looking at, and you compare the way they move and what the thing that has the structure does with it. I forget the taxa off-hand, but I remember reading a paper where grad students welded steel cones with holes drilled into them together to simulate how a certain organism looks in the fossil record, and found out that this created a vortex which they hypothesized the animal used to feed. Does that mean that this animal is related to sheets of steel with holes drilled in them?! This type of cherry-picking only comes from an agenda.

But those who make such claims also embrace the notion that whales (and all other placental mammals) evolved from a tiny late Cretaceous shrewlike insectivore. They fail to mention, or perhaps do not realize, that whalelike, whale-sized creatures existed already in the Cretaceous, prior to the Paleocene.5
More insults. I have yet to meet a paleontologist that wasn't aware of the Mesozoic megafauna. I've talked with experts on the Vendian fauna who knew about marine Mesozoic megafauna, and you can't get much further apart than that.

The teeth of Mosasaurus hoffmanni, as pictured by Lingham-Soliar (1995: 160) are quite similar to those of late Miocene Zygophyseter varolai, an early sperm whale (Bianucci and Landini 2006). The teeth of mosasaurs such as Mosasaurus8 and Hainosaurus9 are similar, also, in both size, and in crown and root morphology, to those of large, living toothed whales, such as those of Orcinus, Physeter, and Pseudorca (Hillson 2005: 72, fig. 1.47).10,11
The teeth of ceritopsian dinosaurs were similar to those of mammoths. That's not because ceritopsian dinosaurs evolved into mammoths--it's because they ate the same food. Same with some of the pterosaurs and some predatory fish. This is a functional constriction: If you eat certain foods, you require certain teeth. If you do not have them, or have tools to compensate, you starve. Pretty strong selection pressure, that.

The backbone thing has the same explanation.

Like modern whales, mosasaurs were deep divers — their remains show signs of avascular necrosis (Rothschild and Martin 1988, Martin and Rothschild 2005; Martin and Rothschild 1989), a condition resulting when nitrogen forms bubbles in body tissues after a dive. A recent study has shown deep-diving sperm whales are also affected by this condition (Moore and Early 2004). Moreover, the remains of giant squid, prey taken by large extant toothed whales during deep dives, have been found in the gut contents of ancient mosasaurs (Martin and Rothschild 2005: 343).
Similar ecological niche. Cool. Not surprising.

But it should be mentioned that, even earlier, a widely respected comparative anatomist asserted that mosasaurs were whales.
The age of an idea has no bearing on the accuracy. In fact, if anything it's a mark AGAINST the accuracy of a scientific idea. How much evidence have we found to date that contradicts it?

The first mosasaur jaws were found in 1766 in St. Pieter's Mountain in the Dutch city of Maastricht.14 But a second specimen, a huge partial skull discovered nearby in 1780, received far more attention.
Two partial skulls. THAT was his sample size. Back before we knew enough about dinosaur anatomy to put them in the right positions. Sorry, not convincing.

Camper pointed out that the teeth of the unknown animal were embedded in deep sockets within the bone of the jaw, a fact confirmed by modern investigators (Lingham-Soliar 1995: 169). Such a condition is characteristic of neither snakes nor of varanid lizards (King and Green 1998). Indeed, such ("thecodont") teeth are generally characteristic of mammals (Smith 1958: 223).15
This is just FLAGRANT misdirection. Thecodont teeth are a characteristic of an entire group of organisms, of which mammals make a part. Therapod dinosaurs, for example, all have tehcodont teeth. Something like 2/3 of a T. rex tooth is under the gum line. I doubt that the author is unaware of this--it's hard to be--so I can only assume that they don't want the reader to remember that reptiles do, in fact, show thecodont teeth.

In particular, the form of the Maastricht animal's teeth, as Camper pointed out, and has already been mentioned, are like those of large extant toothed whales.
They're also remarkably similar to therapod dinosaur teeth, suggesting that it's a diet thing, and not, as the author suggests, a shared derived trait.

I strongly suggest that anyone interested in learning more about the role of teeth in evolution look into horse teeth. There's something of a debate in paleontology right now about how effective dental morphology is in tracing lineages. At the very least, the dishonesty shown in this article should cause the reader to seriously question the validity of these conclusions.

Cuvier, who originated the idea that the Mesozoic was dominated by reptiles, readily embraced the idea that mosasaurs were huge lizards (though mosasaur fossils are always found in association with fossils of known marine origin).
First, most of the fossil record is marine. I first went away from vertebrate paleontology because of that fact. Second, marine reptiles are not unknown, and flying reptiles such as pteranodons ARE today. The aside here, slipped in to prevent anyone from questioning it, is implying something that's contrary to all the available evidence. Also, there's the pleseosaurs and ictheosaurs to deal with. These are obviously lizards--and they're marine.

With the weight of his great reputation, he established the younger Camper's theory as one of the standard hypotheses usually considered in discussions of mosasaur origins.16
Nice implication here: the big, powerful establishment is suppressing the truth! Only, they forgot that geology back then was hardly the calm, civilized dicipline we have now (remember my comment about explosives and fist-fights when you read that). This was back when geology was just starting--there were several competing theories floating around for just about everything, with ardent supporters on all sides. You couldn't simply railroad something into orthodoxy--there WAS NO orthodoxy!

However, a glance at figures 9.4 and 9.5, will convince most readers that mosasaurs have much in common with early whales.
Two problems here. First, again, the "average man" is not who this article should be trying to convince. They should be talking to experts. Second, those pictures are no where NEAR clear enough to show, well, anything in morphology. Fossil photography is hard, and line diagrams are even more tricky. You pick the scale to show what you want to show. A scale that size is showing gross morphology--meaning FUNCTIONAL morphology. Just about the only thing you can see in 9.4 and 9.5 is that it's a vertebrate and the arangement of the limbs. This isn't nearly enough. I've got a book with two pages on the knuckle bones of each taxa in the book, each bone drawn bigger than the critters in those figures.

As for the in-depth analysis of the skull, we get this:

Note that the while the
nasal openings are in approximately the same position in both skulls,
there is a single, fused opening in the more recent Dorudon.
The nostrils are in a similar place. What about those holes in the skull of the one on the left? You know, those holes that are distinctly reptilian? Postorbital fenestras, I believe they're called (not up on my Cretaceous herpetology). To focus on the nose, which is pretty mobile, and ignore something as major as holes in the skull, is rediculous.

Lingham-Soliar (1995: 178) says the disappearance of mosasaurs at the end of the Cretaceous "is an enigma," "sudden and unexpected."
I strongly suspect more quote mining. I have little doubt that later in the paragraph this author goes into the various causes of extinction. So, dishonesty. Again.

There is only another case of the now familiar tendency (we have seen repeated examples in the previous pages of this section) of paleontologists to identify as reptiles forms of Mesozoic age — even when those forms are highly similar to younger forms known to be mammals
A tendency. This implies that this is something paleontologists take lightly. Which is, frankly, deeply insulting. Paleontologists don't just throw out theories, and we certainly don't throw out whatever taxonomic affinities come to mind! Taxa have definitions, particularly before the rise of phylogeny and cladistics. If the thing didn't fit the definition, it didn't go into the taxa. Grab a copy of The Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology sometime--every volume, every FAMILY (it only goes down to genus) practically, has a clade labeled "Problematica" or the like--a place to put things which fit the definition of the higher clade, but don't fit anywhere else (and usually exhibit some other problematic trait--it's more than just "Oh, it's a new subclade).

And this is a SERIOUS flaw in this article: the author never gives his criteria for evaluating the taxonomic affinities of these animals. The author simply points out a few superficial similarities, says that some dead scientist once said something that sounds like what the author is saying, and leaves it at that. To put it bluntly, this article is too easy to read.

Here's what a good taxonomic description should sound like:

The Dinosauria said:
The sauropod manus displays a trend towards phalangeal reduction. The manual phalangeal formula is 2-2-2-2-1 in basal forms such as Shunosaurus and 2-1-1-1-1 in many neosuaropods, such as Apatosaurus and Camarasaurus, and there is some indication that titanosaruians lacked any phalanges whatsoever (SAlgado et al. 1997a).
The paragraph goes downhill, in terms of keeping the reader's attention, from there. The author of the article randman linked to does not, fundamentally give a taxonomic description--they merely gloss over the morphology with generic terms, and move on to the sexy part of the paper, the conclusions (in fact, that's another flaw: The author can't help mixing the conclusions with the data).

So yeah, it wasn't a hard article to read. Wasn't hard to comprehend. The author doesn't provide adequate support for anything they say, and draws a conclusion by ignoring glaringly obvious morphological facts, all the while slipping in their conclusion as if it were already accepted and insulting those who disagree. This wouldn't get published in the most disreputable scientific journal.

All in all, I can see why randman likes it.
 
So yeah, it wasn't a hard article to read. Wasn't hard to comprehend. The author doesn't provide adequate support for anything they say, and draws a conclusion by ignoring glaringly obvious morphological facts, all the while slipping in their conclusion as if it were already accepted and insulting those who disagree.
It's worse than that: The paper is not building up a case for an alternative theory that can better explain all the "flaws" they are pointing out.

Without that the commentary is just plain useless to anyone interested in productive science.
 
On ERVs and how a design inference is more useful than an evolutionary hypothesis in this area:

Dr Sean Pitman discusses the problems with using ERV's as proof of neo-Darwinism. One problem is the presence of other ERV's in the chimp and gorilla genome which are NOT Present in the human genome. If ERV's can be used to prove a common ancestor, then they can also be used to DISprove a common ancestor. It turns out that many of the basic assumptions underlying the ERV thinking has been found to be incorrect. Insertions are not random, but are related to HOT SPOTS. And rather than being non-functional, they seem to be involved in highly important regulatory functions.

Bottom line is that neo-Darwinism has actually been retarding progress in molecular biology research by either making false predictions, or preventing research into fertile areas. One of these impediments was the 25 year insistance on non-coding JUNK DNA which we now know was a false prediction by neo-Darwinism and impediment to research.

As pointed out by Stephen Meyer, using a design engineering approach to research is much more useful at making valid predictions and uncoverung new discoveries in molecular biology.

http://open.salon.com/blog/jeffrey_...dogenes_ervs_evolution_and_intelligent_design

Evolutionist predictions were wrong when it came to ERVs, and IDers and creationist predictions were correct. Many do have a function are not merely errors. They are also not necessarily similar germline insertions and are not entirely random and it may even be exogenous retroviruses were originally derived from ERVs - - not necessarily the other way around.

Also, note:

interesting aspect of ERVs is that they do not always show the expected evolutionary pattern of "inheritance". According to the proposed phylogenetic tree (shown to the right) chimps are closer to humans than to gorillas. Given this scenario, gorillas and chimps would only be expected to share an ERV if this same ERV were also present in humans. However there are some ERVs that don't seem to fit this pattern. For example, the K family of ERVs (HERV-K provirus) is present in chimps and gorillas, but not in humans.40
http://www.detectingdesign.com/pseudogenes.html#Endogenous
 
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Fair enough.

A fair point, and please let me clarify: I did not call randman a liar based on personal incredulity, mine or his. I called him a liar based on his repeated refusal to acknowledge that other people have addressed his arguments, and his continued use of arguments which have been thoroughly disproven. It speaks to how reliable a source randman is, which is pertanent information--many of the links he's provided as evidence have been shown to be flawed, outdated, or frauds, thus the evidence he presents should be viewed far more critically than is normal. I'll admit that just because someone stole a car once, it doesn't follow that the car they're selling you is stolen--I'm just saying that if a known car theif is selling you a car, checking with the police is a good idea before you buy it. (To be frank, I'm using your post as a means to explain my point--you gave me an opening, and demonstrated that I may not have been as clear as I should have been.)

Hey, thanks very much for the further explanation, and also for not going all "docile" on me. Ok, I am making a friendly joke on the last part. Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

You also make some fair points here, and I agree with you on all points. What you have said here does raise a couple questions in my mind, though.

Can it be demonstrated that Randman does understand that his arguments have been previously adrresses & refuted? Being mistaken or unreliable or misinformed is not the same as being a liar.

I agree that if someone is shown to be presenting flawed evidence, that it is right to give that evidence a higher degree of critical scrutiny. How does calling someone a name or making other personal comments about the presenter adress the evidence?

Thanks & regards, Canis
 
I'm bored, and randman insulted my skills in the area, so I'm going to look more closely at his "aquatic lizards evolved into whales" link.

[snip]

All in all, I can see why randman likes it.

WOW! Except for the snide personal attack at the end, this is an absolutely superb post.

I am not just blowing smoke or trying to reinforce my points about civility when I say that I actually learned a lot from this post. I sincerely thank you for taking the time to make it. This is why I come here.

You obviousy have a very indepth knowledge that is well beyond the hobbyiest level of evolutionary study that I am at.

This part for instance:
The accepted account of the evolution of whales is poorly documented in terms of fossils. Relatively few marine fossils of any kind are known from the Paleocene, the first epoch of the Cenozoic Era, the so-called Age of Mammals.
You smoked that claim with:
This one just made my head spin. It's a complete non-sequitor. Sure, there may be valid reasons for discussing the Paleocene in an article about Cetacean evolution--but the authors don't give us any. And this is a serious problem. There's simply not that much rock exposed from the Paleocene (compared to other periods), which means that we're naturally not going to find much there. Worse, it's a recovery fauna, one of two classic recovery faunas (the other being the Early Triassic). Pointing out that there's not many fossils from any but a handful of invertebrate taxa is akin to say "There's not much left after a forest fire".

Myself, I would have read that claim and reread it, cogitating & googling for hours trying to figure out the basic truth of it. Chances are I might never have come to the grasp of it that you have, and it would have perhaps hurt my understanding of the facts. I am so glad & grateful that you swooped in and gave your critique. I can now do some reading based on what you have posted and form a more educated opinion on it.

I love this post so much, it honestly makes me a little irritated that you can produce this sort of work and choose to spend your time making personal attacks. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

You know that personal attacks can prove or disprove nothing. Don't waste your time on them. As you said, this post was a response to a personal attack against you. This is how it's done. It shows how weak and meaningless personal remarks are. You blew it out of the water with an interesting and educational post that was about the facts, not the person.

You have the ready knowledge to save people from the effects of poor evidence. Please use it!

Very sincerely, Canis
 
On ERVs and how a design inference is more useful than an evolutionary hypothesis in this area:



http://open.salon.com/blog/jeffrey_...dogenes_ervs_evolution_and_intelligent_design

Evolutionist predictions were wrong when it came to ERVs, and IDers and creationist predictions were correct. Many do have a function are not merely errors. They are also not necessarily similar germline insertions and are not entirely random and it may even be exogenous retroviruses were originally derived from ERVs - - not necessarily the other way around.

Also, note:

http://www.detectingdesign.com/pseudogenes.html#Endogenous

how does your ID brainfart explain Human Chromosome 2?
 
how does your ID brainfart explain Human Chromosome 2?

I take it you didn't read the links?

Edit to add: It's worth noting that only humans have this fusion indicating the opposite, in my view, of what evos claim since if the proposed common ancestor to people, chimps and apes had this, so presumably would chimps and apes but they do not. It is entirely within human populations.

So what's the big deal. Apparently there was a bottleneck whereby the most recent common ancestor, a person by the way, had this fusion and so it's been passed down.
 
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Typical lie and a smear. So the famous sedimentation experiments by the French scientist, Guy something or another, just didn't happen, as just one example?

Could you give a link for this study, please? I've searched the thread and can't find it.
Thanks!


For example, the link I provided shows an immense level of similarity beyond simply being vertebrates. Look at the skull comparisons as an example.

What link? The macroevolution.net link?

Because if so, that's a pretty blatant lie. It has only a single, small, comparative skull comparison, using drawings from 1898 and 1904!

That's rich, consideringthe Haekel non-controversy!

What fresh, new understanding can we obtain, about life, by invoking The Designer?

An excellent question and I'm looking forward to reading a reply from randman or any other proponent of ID.


...There's simply not that much rock exposed from the Paleocene (compared to other periods), which means that we're naturally not going to find much there. Worse, it's a recovery fauna, one of two classic recovery faunas (the other being the Early Triassic). Pointing out that there's not many fossils from any but a handful of invertebrate taxa is akin to say "There's not much left after a forest fire".
.... Hans Thewissen is discussing functional morphology in comparing the skulls of those pakicetids, NOT taxonomy. Those are two very different fields. In functional morphology you find whatever you can that looks like the thing you're looking at, and you compare the way they move and what the thing that has the structure does with it. I forget the taxa off-hand, but I remember reading a paper where grad students welded steel cones with holes drilled into them together to simulate how a certain organism looks in the fossil record, and found out that this created a vortex which they hypothesized the animal used to feed. Does that mean that this animal is related to sheets of steel with holes drilled in them?! This type of cherry-picking only comes from an agenda.
...First, most of the fossil record is marine. I first went away from vertebrate paleontology because of that fact. Second, marine reptiles are not unknown, and flying reptiles such as pteranodons ARE today. The aside here, slipped in to prevent anyone from questioning it, is implying something that's contrary to all the available evidence. Also, there's the pleseosaurs and ictheosaurs to deal with. These are obviously lizards--and they're marine. ...

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, Dinwar.
 
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I take it you didn't read the links?

Edit to add: It's worth noting that only humans have this fusion indicating the opposite, in my view, of what evos claim since if the proposed common ancestor to people, chimps and apes had this, so presumably would chimps and apes but they do not. It is entirely within human populations.

So what's the big deal. Apparently there was a bottleneck whereby the most recent common ancestor, a person by the way, had this fusion and so it's been passed down.

so i see your ID brainfart cannot explain Human Chromosome 2.
that was to be expected.
ID is useless in science. keep it in your churches.
 

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