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Huge academic cheating scandal in Atlanta

Wrong.

Ever heard of a lab practicum?

Appropriate in some settings (Chemistry, Biology, etc).

The point is still the same: checking to see that the student has assimilated the required body of information for the topic in an objective manner.

The only people who don't like this are the Educrats in the teachers' unions who don't want people to look at the class rolls and be able to quickly and fairly determine whether or not Ms Carruthers (the most popular teacher in the school with the kids, and who holds all the right political positions with the union) can actually impart knowledge of her topic to the class.
 
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Tests are a tool. Like any tool, there are good ones and bad ones. But more importantly, there good uses and bad uses. Using a student evaluation tool to evaluate teachers is a bad use of the tool. Not really a reflection on the tool itself.


Well said.

Utter nonsense.

Scoring teachers based on student proficiency is the ONLY objective way to rate teacher performance.

Do the kids know the prescribed body of information or don't they?

Only the teachers' unions fight this, because they don't want bad teachers held to account.
 
This scandal reminds me of a thread I started about Michelle Rhee a few months ago.

I'm not surprised to see more examples of this cropping up.
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OTOH, I'm not too happy with the teacher's union's position that seniority is everything and no teacher with seniority should ever be let go, no matter how bad their kids do.
 
Utter nonsense.

Scoring teachers based on student proficiency is the ONLY objective way to rate teacher performance.

Do the kids know the prescribed body of information or don't they?

Only the teachers' unions fight this, because they don't want bad teachers held to account.

When you say that student proficiency is an objective measure of teacher performance, do you think that adjustments should be made for student demographics? IOW, does it matter if it's a class of mostly white and Asian suburban middle class students or a class of mostly black and Latino inner-city students?
 
The EM (initials for the girl) is wherein 5 of us boys cheated off of a girl on 7th grade math exam - she cooperated. On a division problem, I worked it on my own, noticed she had it wrong and let her know - carefully. She - operating on the "who is cheating off of who" theory did not do so, nor did the other four boys. I made a B, the rest, including EM made Cs and looked like they were copying me and missed one. Lesson A) don't cheat. Lesson B: but, if you do, make sure the person you are cheating off of really is better than you on evrything. .

The easiest way to detect cheating on problem sets is when the students make the same simple math error. I've seen students hand in problems where they set up the problem correctly, and then make a mistake putting the numbers in their calculator, getting the wrong answer. Then, the student that copies from them has the exact same answer, including the exact same typo.

Cheating is a lot easier to detect when students get the answer wrong. It's harder to prove cheating when they get the right answer, or when they make a common mistake. But when you see bizarre wrong answers, and then come across the same answer again from their friend, it's pretty obvious.
 
The DD story is a 9th grade student I had. They were assigned to choose an animal and do a media center research paper (short) on that animal. DD's paper was turned in neatly tied in a purple string on notebook paper and with a lovely drawing in pencil of an earthworm. It was titled "Worms". (I am now leaving out fun details involving other teachers and a guidance councilor who said he was pretty sure she did copy it directly from an encyclopedia with no other thoughts on it.). First line of the report:
WORMS
An industrial city located on located on the Rhine river in Germany.


after a page and a half describing this, she went to the specific topic clearly meant to be "what worms eat" as it went on:

The Diet of Worms

As Phil Plait would put it... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!
 
Do the kids know the prescribed body of information or don't they?

How often do they come to school? Do some research on the effects of absenteism, transisence, poverty and limited English ability on education before you spout such utter nonsense.
 
My issues with testing are myriad but I think it boils down to the fact that everyone was looking for a silver bullet, one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter solution to some schools (and students) not doing so well.

I disagree.

I think the idea behind the creation of the standardized tests, and an idea I there's nothing wrong with in my opinion, was that at each grade level, there's a certain set of skills that students should have learned at the very least. They can go beyond, of course; but every second grader at the very least should know how to add and subtract single digit numbers and be able to recite the entire alphabet (by way of example, realistic or not). Increase these "very least" requirements as the grade gets higher. I would say that a second grader who doesn't know the alphabet needs some immediate and focused attention, wouldn't you?

So if you've got a school which consistently passes large numbers of kids to the second grade who do not know the alphabet, I would say there's some kind of problem there that needs to be worked on. If "teaching the test" means that school starts focusing on making it so that every second grader does in fact know the alphabet by the time they take the test, I would say "teaching the test" is perfectly fine.

Problems:

1. There seems to be a culture in America where teachers are immune from criticism; like veterans, they're supposed to be honored all the time. A teacher's "love/passion for teaching" is considered sufficient justification for keeping them in the classroom never mind how many illiterate students they pass on. So when the minimum tests suggest faulty methodology in the classroom, the teachers insist that the test is poorly administered, and the public is more likely to believe them over the state.

2. Given the opportunity to relax standards, most schools have proven ready and willing to dumb down their programs to the point that those "at the very least" requirements are all that actually get taught. So rather than the median of the bell curve being well ahead of the state's minimum requirements and the minimum skills test catching and bringing teachers' attention to the struggling few, the median now straddles the minimum requirements line and fully half the students are now below minimum standards.

3. From the school's standpoint, cutting accelerated and G/T programs becomes a good idea because students consistently scoring well above median deforms the bell so that most of the school's students are below average, making the school look bad.
 
There seems to be a culture in America where teachers are immune from criticism; like veterans, they're supposed to be honored all the time.

Are you kidding? Are you totally unaware of all the teacher bashing the past year?
 
You mean those three or four incidents that were such rare occurrences that they became national news? Yes.
 
How often do they come to school? Do some research on the effects of absenteism, transisence, poverty and limited English ability on education before you spout such utter nonsense.
Well, yes, you understand the problem.

What is the solution? Sixth grade level is sixth grade level. How many 20 year olds do you want in a class before they're deemed 'unteachable'? And then what?
 
This may just be the start. After this story broke they are now carefully looking at schools in my area and they listed dozens as being suspected of academic cheating.

It would make sense that this Atlanta school wouldn't be the only case of such a thing going on. Now I guess we'll find out just how wide spread it is.
 
Given a classroom of unteachables -- welcome to many Altlanta and inner city schools -- what should be done?
 
This may just be the start. After this story broke they are now carefully looking at schools in my area and they listed dozens as being suspected of academic cheating.

It would make sense that this Atlanta school wouldn't be the only case of such a thing going on. Now I guess we'll find out just how wide spread it is.

I think you misunderstand - it isn't just one school, this has been going on all across Atlanta Public Schools.
 
I think you misunderstand - it isn't just one school, this has been going on all across Atlanta Public Schools.

I see. I really hadn't paid much attention since it was so far outside of the schools near me. But now it looks like schools in my area may have an even larger scandal on their hands, as Pittsburgh Public Schools are just one in a long list of districts they're looking at.

Here's the story.

35 entire districts and 10 charter schools have been flagged.

"The report doesn't detail Pittsburgh Public Schools' irregularity, but spokeswoman Ebony Pugh said the state told the district that Sterrett Classical Academy in Point Breeze showed a 27 percent jump in participation by economically disadvantaged students."

"In March 2005, a teacher from Uniontown surrendered her certification to avoid disciplinary action after district officials accused her of providing answers for the reading section of the previous year's PSSA."

And this:

"Cynthia Chelen, superintendent in the Monessen School District, attributed Monessen Elementary School's irregularities to the fickle minds of young children.

"If you ever watched an elementary student, sometimes they change their answers three or four times," she said."

sets off every skeptical alarm in my head.
 
Utter nonsense.

Scoring teachers based on student proficiency is the ONLY objective way to rate teacher performance.

Do the kids know the prescribed body of information or don't they?

Only the teachers' unions fight this, because they don't want bad teachers held to account.

At what level does a student come into the classroom. If they can't do the things they should have been able to do in the prior grades, how can I catch them up? In many states, the parent, not the school, gets to decide if a child is passed on or not through the elementary (K-6 grades). How is that fair to the teacher?. The situation is far more complex than anyone of your ilk is willing to admit or even fathom. The question isn't whether or not the students are learning the material, it's whether or not the teacher is teaching the material. If the student isn't learning, it very well may be their own fault (or that of a learning disability, for example). What the layperson fails to understand or appreciate is that teaching and learning are not necessarily connected.

I can teach a student new techniques and effective methods of practice, give them access to resources, work with them one-on-one, help them create a practice routine, etc. but if they don't do the work, how is that my fault? How do you determine who is at fault on a case-by-case basis? I'm willing to bet most people aren't willing to commit the resources necessary to implement a review process that is that in-depth. To tie a teachers job or pay to a single standardized test is folly and illogical. Without an in-depth review of each failing student, it is utterly unethical to say, unequivocally, "That is a teacher that failed to do their job."
 
Scoring teachers based on student proficiency is the ONLY objective way to rate teacher performance.

No, you will find that often when you use the word "only" you are wrong. I agree that an objective evaluation of a teacher may include testing information, but should not be solely based on that limited factor. Do we really want teachers to only be concerned with the test scores? (See the OP before you answer this one.)

Only the teachers' unions fight this, because they don't want bad teachers held to account.

This is so nice to hear repeated as fact. It is so warm and fuzzy, like an old blanket. Let's never let it go. Hmmm.

Now, maybe you could find a room full of principals and ask them a few questions. Like: Have you ever fired a bad teacher? How did you know the teacher was bad? Was it hard to fire a teacher you felt was not doing a good job of teaching? How many bad teachers are currently teaching in your school?

Consider how their answers compare with those of a manager at your local bank, hardware store, hospital or restaurant. There are bad employees in all of these and all of these have found ways to weed them out and replace them. Why do you assume school can't do the same?

In the districts where I live and work bad teachers quickly become former teachers. It is a good job with good benefits and there are plenty of qualified people who would like to be teachers. Now, if we reduce salaries and cut benefits, that will likely change, but for now there is enough of a market attraction that many good teachers can't get jobs and bad teachers don't last long.

Personally, I'd like to see teachers paid more as I think it would attract even better candidates to the field, but that's just me. I have to admit that we have a pretty good group in there right now, so if we just don't screw them we should do fine.
 
I disagree.

I think the idea behind the creation of the standardized tests, and an idea I there's nothing wrong with in my opinion, was that at each grade level, there's a certain set of skills that students should have learned at the very least. They can go beyond, of course; but every second grader at the very least should know how to add and subtract single digit numbers and be able to recite the entire alphabet (by way of example, realistic or not). Increase these "very least" requirements as the grade gets higher. I would say that a second grader who doesn't know the alphabet needs some immediate and focused attention, wouldn't you?

So if you've got a school which consistently passes large numbers of kids to the second grade who do not know the alphabet, I would say there's some kind of problem there that needs to be worked on. If "teaching the test" means that school starts focusing on making it so that every second grader does in fact know the alphabet by the time they take the test, I would say "teaching the test" is perfectly fine.

Problems:

1. There seems to be a culture in America where teachers are immune from criticism; like veterans, they're supposed to be honored all the time. A teacher's "love/passion for teaching" is considered sufficient justification for keeping them in the classroom never mind how many illiterate students they pass on. So when the minimum tests suggest faulty methodology in the classroom, the teachers insist that the test is poorly administered, and the public is more likely to believe them over the state.

2. Given the opportunity to relax standards, most schools have proven ready and willing to dumb down their programs to the point that those "at the very least" requirements are all that actually get taught. So rather than the median of the bell curve being well ahead of the state's minimum requirements and the minimum skills test catching and bringing teachers' attention to the struggling few, the median now straddles the minimum requirements line and fully half the students are now below minimum standards.

3. From the school's standpoint, cutting accelerated and G/T programs becomes a good idea because students consistently scoring well above median deforms the bell so that most of the school's students are below average, making the school look bad.

Wow, that's a lot of thoughtless BS to cut through.

The problem isn't taking on criticism, it's the fact that nobody, nobody, want to commit the resources to a good education system for everyone. They will gladly heap the blame on teachers without thinking critically about the issues, be accountable themselves or ask tough questions about what tests mean and how they are used. Rather, they see them as the end-all-be-all of education. The fact is that our educational system and testing regimen is nothing like the educational systems and testing regimens in the nations we are constantly compared to. The results and comparisons are meaningless in light of this.

Tests are easy, hands-off, not-my-responsibility cop-outs used by politicians and "reformers" who couldn't give two craps about education. Criticize me all you want but criticize me for the work I do not the work my students do. When my students do well it's because they took the things I taught them and worked not because I have some magical ability. Will my students do better if I do good work? Sure. Is that guaranteed? Not in the least. My effectiveness is based of a hell of a lot more than just what I do and I will not have my abilities as a teacher reduced to one performance.

If you want to say that teachers are trying to protect themselves, can you blame them? They've been vilified, marginalized as professionals, called all sorts of names, second-guessed, underpaid and left twisting in the wind. Has anyone come their aid that could actually do something? Hell no. When asked the question "What's wrong with schools" the answer is always "It's those stupid teachers not doing their jobs and the unions that protect them." Really, that's the only significant problem? That's all you can see being an issue? If that's the case then you're beyond reasonable discussion.
 
But, assuming teacher A´s students are comparable to teacher B´s students (i.e. just as lazy or motivated, just as smart or dumb etc), which they ought to be within the same year at the same school, if A´s students score better than B´s students, wouldn´t that mean A is better than B?
 

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