General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Skeptic said:
For these two reasons I am skeptical of the motives of those who go on about the demographic threat. It seems to me that whatever the facts are, the reason they go on about it is to established their previously-held conclusion -- "Israel must give up land" -- which is what all "right (that is, left) thinking" people should believe, just like they should believe in the evil taking-over intentions of the disgusting orthodox Jews.
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you are skeptical of thier motives? But you go on about the demographic threat all the time. Referring to The Jewish state being "destroyed" demographically.

here...I will quote you
"Of course the "right of return" means the "Return" of millions of "refugees" to Israel to destroy it demographically"

going on about demographic threats? do you hold the previously held conclusion too?
 
The Fool said:
you are skeptical of thier motives? But you go on about the demographic threat all the time. Referring to The Jewish state being "destroyed" demographically.

here...I will quote you
"Of course the "right of return" means the "Return" of millions of "refugees" to Israel to destroy it demographically"

going on about demographic threats? do you hold the previously held conclusion too?
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The sudden influx of millions of Arabs raised on toxic propaganda would be a threat. Nobody in Israel supports that which makes it a useful thing for the Palestinians to demand as a deal-breaker. Keeps the conflict simmering. Keeps the foreign aid coming in. Keeps the offshore bank accounts full.
 
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Skeptic said:
I see your point, Praktik, but I disagree.

The reason I don't see BD as "confused" is the same reason that if if someone openly praises the KKK, and declares them to be "freedom fighters", it is extremely unlikely they are "confused" and really joined the KKK party because of their economic policy. It is virtually certain that they are knowingly racists.

What's more -- and what's even more damning -- is that Hamas is well-known, quite apart from its antisemitism, for being dictatorial and theocratic and murderously anti-gay, among other things. Yet all this is forgiven and ignored by BD. So theocratic gay-killer dictators are bad, except for the theocratic gay-killers who also want to murder Jews, who are "freedom fighters". Now, what does that tell you?
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I dunno, I think it tells me the following:

Step 1: Take input from someone's post.
Step 2: Reduce, simplify and characterize in such a way that it fits the Support for Evil Formula.
Step 3: State to this person - and the board generally - that they must therefore be active, conscious supporters of [insert evil here: murder, genocide, racists, baby molesters].

Inquiry: What is the general reaction of people to whom this formula is applied? I haven't seen one target yet that responded positively. So, if you never manage to convince the target of the veracity of these wild claims, what are you doing but engaging in philosophical masturbation?
 
Praktik said:
Inquiry: What is the general reaction of people to whom this formula is applied? I haven't seen one target yet that responded positively. So, if you never manage to convince the target of the veracity of these wild claims, what are you doing but engaging in philosophical masturbation?
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How often does anyone on this board change their mind about a really contentious issue?

Some folks like to call it how it is, rather than sugar coating their response into a "OK, so you support [KKK, Nazis, Hamas] but I'm sure that you are a good guy really, with overall reasonable beliefs and I shouldn't rush to judgment just because you always seem to trust the Waffen SS newsletters over what you read in the Stars and Stripes"
 
Actually I think assuming reasonableness as the default position would do wonders for discussion on this board...
 
Praktik said:
I dunno, I think it tells me the following:

Step 1: Take input from someone's post.
Step 2: Reduce, simplify and characterize in such a way that it fits the Support for Evil Formula.
Step 3: State to this person - and the board generally - that they must therefore be active, conscious supporters of [insert evil here: murder, genocide, racists, baby molesters].

Inquiry: What is the general reaction of people to whom this formula is applied? I haven't seen one target yet that responded positively. So, if you never manage to convince the target of the veracity of these wild claims, what are you doing but engaging in philosophical masturbation?
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It's all he knows.
 
Praktik said:
I dunno, I think it tells me the following:

Step 1: Take input from someone's post.
Step 2: Reduce, simplify and characterize in such a way that it fits the Support for Evil Formula.
Step 3: State to this person - and the board generally - that they must therefore be active, conscious supporters of [insert evil here: murder, genocide, racists, baby molesters].

Inquiry: What is the general reaction of people to whom this formula is applied? I haven't seen one target yet that responded positively. So, if you never manage to convince the target of the veracity of these wild claims, what are you doing but engaging in philosophical masturbation?
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BINGO!
this precisely correct.
 
WildCat said:
So you don't support Hamas?
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Typical running dog capitalist zionist lackey!

You are trying to reduce a complex situation to:

a) Expressing sympathy for civilian killing, religious-authoritarian, anti-semetic terrorists
+
b) Distrust and disdain for the experiences or sources of the only free press & democratic society in the area

= being objectively pro-fascist.

Well, it's not pro-fascist, it's a nuanced and complex (final) solution... ummm... understanding of the problem!
 
Praktik said:
I dunno, I think it tells me the following:

Step 1: Take input from someone's post.
Step 2: Reduce, simplify and characterize in such a way that it fits the Support for Evil Formula.
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BD's one-sentence post was "I think Hamas are freedom fighters".

Here is a one-sentence post: "I think the KKK are freedom fighters".

Here is another one-sentence post: "I think the Nazis are freedom fighters".

Please tell me how I am "oversimplifying" if I say I think #1 here shows support for Hamas, just like #2 and #3 show support for the KKK and the Nazi party.

Of course I'm being unfair to the KKK -- compared to Hamas and the Nazi party, they're practically pacifists.
 
Giz said:
Typical running dog capitalist zionist lackey!

You are trying to reduce a complex situation to:

a) Expressing sympathy for civilian killing, religious-authoritarian, anti-semetic terrorists
+
b) Distrust and disdain for the experiences or sources of the only free press & democratic society in the area

= being objectively pro-fascist.

Well, it's not pro-fascist, it's a nuanced and complex (final) solution... ummm... understanding of the problem!
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See step by step Giz, but we're getting there....;)
 
Skeptic said:
Of course I'm being unfair to the KKK -- compared to Hamas and the Nazi party, they're practically pacifists.
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No you're being unfair to bikerdruid, who has stated baldly in this thread he does not support the murder of innocents.
 
Praktik said:
No you're being unfair to bikerdruid, who has stated baldly in this thread he does not support the murder of innocents.
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If Bikerdruid states that he supports Hamas, that conflicts with him saying that he does not support the murder of innocents. Pointing that out is hardly unfair!
 
Praktik said:
See step by step Giz, but we're getting there....;)
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Hey, it's as simple as this - why do people equivocate and hedge around their support of Hamas when they would be embarressed to do the same about supporting the Nazis?
 
I don't support the nazis, but for a lot of Germans, Hitler was the answer to their problems at the time. He brought back self confidence, an economy, self respect, unity, freedom from the oppressive repayments for the loss of WWI. That didn't last long, and turned into a nightmare even worse than they had before he ruled. For a while, the fantasy lasted. I can say he did those 'good' things for Germany and still not support him. The reduction to a simple black/white yes/no is just bad history. Israel is not 'bad', the historical forces at play made the creation of Israel inevitable, but process of going from two people after self determination in the one place was also inevitably going to messy and bloody.
 
a_unique_person said:
Israel is not 'bad', the historical forces at play made the creation of Israel inevitable, but process of going from two people after self determination in the one place was also inevitably going to messy and bloody.
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They were offered a state. They preferred war.
 
"I support Hamas and not the murder of innocents" is like saying "I support the KKK and racial equality".
 
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