What do feminists want?

[TraneWreck]

Tranewrek- Don't believe the numbers. There are several problems with those numbers but I will start with the 1 out of 6 women in their lifetime number...

Sure, they're not perfect, but they're better attempts. The statistics clearly show an under-reporting of assault by men, but they also show an under-reporting by women.

And given the split, the error in the statics would have to be ENORMOUS to justify any attempted equivalency, and I have seen nothing to suggest that's the case.

The other problem is 65,000 men a year are raped in US prisions and almost never report and when reported never have a serious investagation. Of course these rapes are almost all men raping other men and because of a lack of investagation can not be sure of the true number. http://www.nij.gov/journals/259/prison-rape.htm

And if a gentleman expressed aprehension at being left alone in the showers with another convict, I would recognize the legitimacy of his fear.

 

[bookitty]

Even after reading this thread I still have no idea what Feminist want since the discussion seems to be taking play in theoretical world and not in the real world. If you want to use the broadest definition of feminist than its all but a fairly small number that would disagree but that is not how the major feminist groups in the US and most of the rest of the English speaking world believe at least based on their actions and writings. The problem to me is that these groups pretend to believe in equality when their actions are radical pro woman and many times anti man. To use but one example the boys crisis in schools the feminist group AAUW has repeatedly over the last 20 years misrepresented data to show such a problem in fact they used data that boys are disciplined more often than women to claim that boys get imply boys get more positive attention in school. Just a couple of years ago the released a paper that try to claim that there was no boy crisis by eliminating from their sample males from African American and Latino backgrounds and tried to compare all girls with middle class and rich white and Asian males. This type of example can be found on issue after issue from the major feminist groups and press another big one is the pay gap. These groups use the raw totals which does have a pay gap but ignores hours worked, job title, etc which taken together shows a gap less than 10 percent and of course ignores the damage done when a woman takes more than maternity leave off when having kids which explains about 8 percent of the total leaving a gap around 2 percent (which can be anything) and ignoring the new data showing under 35 women in cities are now making more than males.

We're also complete bastards about paragraph breaks. And may I suggest that when you start a new thread about these very real problems so that they can be discussed in the proper context, you apply them.

 

[TheJim]

Sure, they're not perfect, but they're better attempts. The statistics clearly show an under-reporting of assault by men, but they also show an under-reporting by women.

And given the split, the error in the statics would have to be ENORMOUS to justify any attempted equivalency, and I have seen nothing to suggest that's the case.

I disagree they are not better attempts these studies for the most part have been carried out for political reasons to get political numbers. They are looking to find as many victims as they can count they are not looking to get true numbers. This is a huge problem in the extremely high politicized field of sex crime research. These problems of over counting infest the whole field from child sexual abuse numbers where more than one study counted as sexual abuse kids that did not want their aunt to kiss them on the cheek to sex trafficking numbers which counts all the kids in San Diego and Niegra Falls at being at risk.

I have no doubt that the number is underreported but than ever crime is underreported. But for the numbers suggested from the research in sex crime to be true you are talking about an underrporting rate of only 1 in 800 to 1 in 8000 depending on the number you look at. Even secondary indicators you can try to glem data from come no where close to suggesting a problem anywhere close to these numbers suggest like females dropping out of college or having sudden attendence and grade problems. Also, its funny that these studies always get around the same number despite a drop in every violent crime over the last 3 decades and a drop in rape in particlur despite rape being taken more seriously than ever to the point even RAIIN no longer claims that fear of not being believed is a primary reason for not reporting the crime.

 

[brodski]

And women haven't gained workplace equality, in case you thought they had.

by your simplistic measure they pretty much have, in my part of the world. With a broader understanding of equality then no, they have not.

You're way overthinking what should be a simple concept.

Um, no. The whole point of this thread is that men and women are (on average) different, with different needs, perceptions and social positions and privileges. Treating everyone exactly the same wouldn't produce equality. In which case, what is equality and how do we know when we’ve got there?

 

[TheJim]

We're also complete bastards about paragraph breaks. And may I suggest that when you start a new thread about these very real problems so that they can be discussed in the proper context, you apply them.

Sorry about the paragraphs I really did not mean to go on as much as I did and should have went back to break it up.

I do feel though that my post directly addresses this thread. The OP asked what do feminist want and in 8 pages now no one really has addressed it. They keep talking about feminism in the generic but I don't believe that is what the OP was talking about because well that is easy to understand. What I want and I am presuming that the OP wanted is what do actual feminist in the form of movement types want which is a different question than what has been discussed.

 

[Dancing David]

Men talking about trauma are not taken seriously on this forum.

I never found that to be my experience, I have discussed it many times. I have been taken seriously every time.

Gosh, we even provided counseling to male victims of domestic violence at the shelter.

 

[Dancing David]

Tranewrek- Don't believe the numbers. There are several problems with those numbers but I will start with the 1 out of 6 women in their lifetime number.

Actually that is a convergent number of women who have experience sexualy innapropriate behavior. It does not come froma single phone survey and has been replicated in a number of ways.

Your statement about rape defintions is irrelevant, being sexually touched or used by a masturbation object by a perpetrator does not qualify as penetrative rape, but is does qualify as being a victim of sexual abuse.

More interestingly the number are 1/3 for lifetime victim event of sexual abuse for women and 1/6 for men, but more men are reporting sexual abuse than in the past.

So what makes you think that one phone survey is the soel source of that number?

 

[Dancing David]

I disagree they are not better attempts these studies for the most part have been carried out for political reasons to get political numbers. They are looking to find as many victims as they can count they are not looking to get true numbers. This is a huge problem in the extremely high politicized field of sex crime research. These problems of over counting infest the whole field from child sexual abuse numbers where more than one study counted as sexual abuse kids that did not want their aunt to kiss them on the cheek to sex trafficking numbers which counts all the kids in San Diego and Niegra Falls at being at risk.

I have no doubt that the number is underreported but than ever crime is underreported. But for the numbers suggested from the research in sex crime to be true you are talking about an underrporting rate of only 1 in 800 to 1 in 8000 depending on the number you look at. Even secondary indicators you can try to glem data from come no where close to suggesting a problem anywhere close to these numbers suggest like females dropping out of college or having sudden attendence and grade problems. Also, its funny that these studies always get around the same number despite a drop in every violent crime over the last 3 decades and a drop in rape in particlur despite rape being taken more seriously than ever to the point even RAIIN no longer claims that fear of not being believed is a primary reason for not reporting the crime.

I see that you are a rape apologist who denies and feels the need to make unsupported assertion, I can not be civil to you, welcome to IGNORE.

 

[Taarkin]

FTFY.

Please stop operating under the misapprehension that feminism is sexism, TIA.

It's a fallacious argumentative technique: pretending isolated counter examples are sufficient to reject claims about broad trends. It's not minimizing Lou Gehrig's disease to point out that our society has a problem with deaths caused by drunk driving. If we want to have a discussion about ways to broadly increase the life-spans of Americans, focus on specific, rare diseases is not really relevant. That doesn't mean we should cut funding for ALS reasearch or that the victims are irrelevant, it just means it's rare.distraction.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#butbut

 

[tesscaline]

I never found that to be my experience, I have discussed it many times. I have been taken seriously every time.

Gosh, we even provided counseling to male victims of domestic violence at the shelter.

Did you miss the "on this forum" part?

Because even now, in this very thread, I see the subject of male rape being belittled in the face of "women's issues". That its okay to belittle the severity of male rape because "women get raped more often".

Maybe it's just a matter of perception... *shrugs*

 

[bookitty]

Did you miss the "on this forum" part?

Because even now, in this very thread, I see the subject of male rape being belittled in the face of "women's issues". That its okay to belittle the severity of male rape because "women get raped more often".

Maybe it's just a matter of perception... *shrugs*

In this thread? Where it has been repeatedly pointed out that those issues have their own unique problems which would be better served by discussion in another thread. It is not at all belittling to point out that serious problems deserve full attention and should not be tagged on to a conversation about something else.

 

[tesscaline]

In this thread? Where it has been repeatedly pointed out that those issues have their own unique problems which would be better served by discussion in another thread. It is not at all belittling to point out that serious problems deserve full attention and should not be tagged on to a conversation about something else.

Yes, in this thread. On this page of this thread no less.

I didn't say it was "belittling" so say that a serious problem deserves full attention in it's own thread, did I? No, I didn't. Read what I said. Stop imagining my posts say anything other than what the words I put in the text box actually say.

 

[TheJim]

Actually that is a convergent number of women who have experience sexualy innapropriate behavior. It does not come froma single phone survey and has been replicated in a number of ways.

It comes from several phone and at home surveys. Unlike you I have actually read the report. These numbers have not been replicated in any other type of research.

Your statement about rape defintions is irrelevant, being sexually touched or used by a masturbation object by a perpetrator does not qualify as penetrative rape, but is does qualify as being a victim of sexual abuse.

Actually no it is extremely relevant. They count as rape victims people that meet no legal definition of rape in this nation. Having sex after you smoke a joint or did a line is not illegal in **** country. Having sex buzzed or drunk is not illegal. Agreeing to sex after saying no is not illegal. And yet they are all counted as victims.

So what makes you think that one phone survey is the soel source of that number?

Well that and the related home survey (which for all intents and purposes is the same thing). There is no other source that shows anything close to numbers in this range from college drop out rates, sudden grade drops, sudden absences from either school or work or any other predicted secondary indicator.

I see that you are a rape apologist who denies and feels the need to make unsupported assertion, I can not be civil to you, welcome to IGNORE.

Thanks for the personal attack. I have cited exactly where I got the information and that is the studies themselves. You can go read them yourself and see the questions asked and the methodology. But, you are right its best not to talk to me as I don't really care for those that lie for jesus.

 

[Koudelka]

There is a perfectly good term, and you already know what it is, so don't pretend you don't. The term is "Women's Liberation."

Wow, you can read my mind?! Oh my gosh, you should totally take the $1 Million Paranormal Challenge!


... Oh wait, you can't, because I didn't secretly have that term in mind and just chose to pretend like I didn't.

 

[epepke]

I disagree they are not better attempts these studies for the most part have been carried out for political reasons to get political numbers. They are looking to find as many victims as they can count they are not looking to get true numbers. This is a huge problem in the extremely high politicized field of sex crime research. These problems of over counting infest the whole field from child sexual abuse numbers where more than one study counted as sexual abuse kids that did not want their aunt to kiss them on the cheek to sex trafficking numbers which counts all the kids in San Diego and Niegra Falls at being at risk.

I have no doubt that the number is underreported but than ever crime is underreported. But for the numbers suggested from the research in sex crime to be true you are talking about an underrporting rate of only 1 in 800 to 1 in 8000 depending on the number you look at. Even secondary indicators you can try to glem data from come no where close to suggesting a problem anywhere close to these numbers suggest like females dropping out of college or having sudden attendence and grade problems. Also, its funny that these studies always get around the same number despite a drop in every violent crime over the last 3 decades and a drop in rape in particlur despite rape being taken more seriously than ever to the point even RAIIN no longer claims that fear of not being believed is a primary reason for not reporting the crime.

I'm glad that you piped in here. I don't believe @TraneWreck's "facts" either. There are a number of things to consider.

It's only been about three decades since we've taken rape of women seriously, and we've only started. Women who try to report rapes face brutal treatment. I know this, because I was the lover and later the husband of an ER nurse who got training on how to do a "rape kit" back in the middle 1990s, did one, and refused to do it ever again. She said that it was a second rape. (I can get graphic if you like.) I also know because just a couple of years ago a female friend of mine got raped, and I did what support I could for her.

It's still totally abysmal for female victims, and this is reprehensible. However, it is even worse for male victims, who will be laughed at. I know this for many reasons, including my own sexual battery and how there was no support: what little there was was exclusively for women. I also know from some male friends, who only opened up to me after I made comments on public fora.

So almost never will a male victim of rape confide in anybody.

Also, the majority of states do not have laws criminalizing rape of men. Some had sodomy laws, and forcible sodomy was one of the categories. However, the Supreme Court made an opinion in Lawrence v. Texas that struck down all the sodomy laws. A very good opinion in my opinion, by the way, but it has left the state of male victims in limbo.

I am very proud that my home state of Florida replaced all its rape statutes with a non-sexist sexual battery law in 1973. It's good, though it has an interesting flaw in that all sexual intercourse is defined as "sexual battery," but not always the kind that is criminal. Whenever you see a study that talks about the legal definition of rape or sexual battery, check the laws out to see if there is probable cause to think some prevarication is going on.

Still, Florida was and is highly unusual. The overwhelming majority of instances of penes shoved into the vaginas of unwilling women are viewed as rape (except for Illiniois, which has funny laws). The overwhelming majority of instances of penes shoved into the anuses of unwilling men are considered not to be rape.

 

[epepke]

Wow, you can read my mind?! Oh my gosh, you should totally take the $1 Million Paranormal Challenge!

... Oh wait, you can't, because I didn't secretly have that term in mind and just chose to pretend like I didn't.

So, mockery aside, why didn't you think of that term?

 

[epepke]

I see that you are a rape apologist who denies and feels the need to make unsupported assertion, I can not be civil to you, welcome to IGNORE.

Nota bene, @bookitty.

 

[TraneWreck]

I'm glad that you piped in here. I don't believe @TraneWreck's "facts" either. There are a number of things to consider.

This is a reasonable way to progress.

Also, the majority of states do not have laws criminalizing rape of men. Some had sodomy laws, and forcible sodomy was one of the categories. However, the Supreme Court made an opinion in Lawrence v. Texas that struck down all the sodomy laws. A very good opinion in my opinion, by the way, but it has left the state of male victims in limbo.

I just...have to take a deep breath here...must avoid breaching membership agreement...

EVERY state has laws against raping men. Every single one. I would be curious if you can produce a single state statute that prevents the prosecution of someone who rapes a man. Be very careful, some use the phrase "sexual assault" or "sexual battery." Rape is a subset of those crimes.

Some states still have old laws on the books (I believe Kentucky is an example) that use the pronoun "he" for the perpetrator, but no state restricts the gender of the victim.

All Lawrence did was decriminalize VOLUNTARY SODOMY. Laws criminalizing any and all homosexual sex were tossed out, it had nothing to do with rape.

Your assertion is literally one of the most insane claims I've ever encoutered. There is no place in the United States where you can rape a man and no be prosecuted because there's no law agaisnt that behavior.

I am very proud that my home state of Florida replaced all its rape statutes with a non-sexist sexual battery law in 1973. It's good, though it has an interesting flaw in that all sexual intercourse is defined as "sexual battery," but not always the kind that is criminal. Whenever you see a study that talks about the legal definition of rape or sexual battery, check the laws out to see if there is probable cause to think some prevarication is going on.

Still, Florida was and is highly unusual. The overwhelming majority of instances of penes shoved into the vaginas of unwilling women are viewed as rape (except for Illiniois, which has funny laws). The overwhelming majority of instances of penes shoved into the anuses of unwilling men are considered not to be rape.

This is just pure nonsense. I'm actually a lawyer licensed in Illinois. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. It's impossible to adequately explain where you went wrong, because those two paragraphs are entirely gibberish.

In the 60's and before, rape was often defined as "when a man engages in forceable intercourse with a woman who is not is wife..."

You may be interested to know that it was a concerted effort by feminists that 1) eliminated the marital exception to rape and 2) caused all relevant statutes to be rewritten such that they were gender neutral.

You are 100% full of crap on this. There is no place in America where it is legal to have unconsented, forceable intercourse with a man. It's honestly stunning that someone would try to make such an argument.

By the way, "sexual battery" and "rape" are often indistinguishable terms in the law. One of the following blanks is properly filled with the phrase "sexual battery." It's the Florida statute. The others are an assortment of state rape statutes and legal definitions. See if you can separate "rape" from "sexual battery."*

______________ is the perpetuation of an act of sexual intercourse with a person against his or her will and consent, whether his/her will is overcome by force or fear resulting from the threat of force, or by drugs administered without consent or when, because of mental deficiency s/he is incapable of giving consent or when s/he is below the arbitrary age of consent.

___________ is oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object

____________ is the commission of unlawful sexual intercourse or unlawful sexual intrusion.

____________ is Sexual intercourse with a person who does not consent to the sexual intercourse

_____________: Any person subject to this chapter who causes another person of any age to engage in a sexual act by—
(1) using force against that other person;

(2) causing grievous bodily harm to any person;

(3) threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, grievous bodily harm, or kidnaping;

(4) rendering another person unconscious; or

(5) administering to another person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct

*In this world of cheating with google, you are required to explain why you chose what you chose.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'd like to see that, too.

ETA: I do remember a thread where it came up, but the relevant comments did not make pages.

Here is the link to the 'men can get raped by women' discussion. There were several related threads. One which might be relevant was the one on men being more violent than women which I think is a well supported assertion but a lot of forum members disagreed:

Are men really more violent than women?

 

[shawmutt]

After exhaustive research, I finally found elevator man.