So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[latsot]

Oh, I really, really do beg to differ.

So in one quote I say that propositioning someone in certain circumstances can be an aggressive act. In the other I give advice about exactly the same thing. My point didn't change at all, I just changed the way I explained it.

 

[bookitty]

Well, I believe it was you who implied it was easy.




Or perhaps I am just too slow to grasp the subtleties between "easy" and "really *really* simple."



And Boo, I don't go to TAM for casual hook ups. It's just a bonus. But if a guy like me can get some play there (and more than random hugs and gropings from Toby) there's hope for anyone.

I have no problem with anybody getting some random sex at TAM. A meeting of minds can be a very, very cool place to start a meeting of bodies.

I just worry about people thinking that's the focus of the weekend, especially if they are willing to pursue it with any remotely interesting stranger. That's the sort of thing that ends badly.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I was a bartender on and off for 20 years. I saw about a gazzillion hook-ups. Women who walk up to random guys and proposition them, women who were grudge-sexing someone they didn't even like and all points in between. It happens because women get horny too.

The most common hook up regardless of gender - People who are feeling frisky going somewhere and having a good time. If someone there is fun, they end up wandering off together.

Grudge sexing?

 

[latsot]

Or perhaps I am just too slow to grasp the subtleties between "easy" and "really *really* simple."

Apparently so. The concept is really simple: if you're making someone uncomfortable, you're doing it wrong. The practice can be rather more difficult. So what?

 

[3point14]

So in one quote I say that propositioning someone in certain circumstances can be an aggressive act. In the other I give advice about exactly the same thing. My point didn't change at all, I just changed the way I explained it.

You backed down from a firm and absolute statement into a much softer stance with far more qualifiers. You changed what you meant because you realised that your first statement was unsupportable, but you're not prepared to admit it.

It's okay, you can admit it. You'll feel better.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I was in an elevator at TAM V with Dr.Buzzo.

 

[Bytor]

In all fairness, all that we were given is that the guy was doing just what has been advised - get to know someone before making sexual advances. The rest has been filled in by our prurient desires for a sausagefest.

In all fairness, no, the guy wasn't doing doing what has been advised. I know one can miss a post or few as a thead gets longer, but it has been said, before you posted - that ElevatorGuy had not taken the time to get to know Rebecca before propositioning her.

By all accounts, while he was part of the larger group in the bar with Rebecca, he did not talk with her directly at all. He made no attempt to interact with her in the bar, make a suggestive comment with waggled eyebrows or some flirtatious body language to try and just what her response would be.

He jumped straight from watching her from the other side of the crowd to cornering in an enclosed space out of sight from other people and making what most reasonable people would say is a proposition for sex.

 

[Antiquehunter]

I'm confused about something here. Is this summary of what happened accurate?

- Rebecca gave a talk at a conference, and continued to talk to other attendees at a bar late at night. [The speech/conversation included her objections to being sexualized at those conventions, and mentioned that she got threats of rape.]*

Yes.

- At 4 AM, after announcing she was tired and was going to bed, she went into an elevator with another man present.

Yes- but important to note that we do not know whether or not the man was actually an attendee, if he was an attendee, if he had heard Rebecca's talk. We assume that he was not part of the conversation in the bar with Rebecca, since it was mentioned there was no interaction between them in the bar, but we do not know if they guy was part of the group standing around Rebecca & overheard her annoucement, if he was eavesdropping into the conversation / watching across the room (creepy) or just there.

- The man in the elevator said he found her talk interesting (presuming he heard what she said) and wanted to "get to know her better over coffee".
- Rebecca politely said no, and was uncomfortable about the proposition.

Yes.

* This is the part I'm unclear about. Was her talk about disliking to be sexualized at conventions etc. really before the elevator incident, or was it just something she said in the video after? In her post on Skepchick, she said, "This is especially interesting since Richard Dawkins sat next to me in Dublin and heard me talk about the threats of rape I get."

Yes, she had provided an example of someone threatening to rape her as part of her talk. The original Email that she showed is posted on her blog if you want to read it. At the risk of sounding like an apologist (and I'm not) - the guy says 'You deserve to get raped' - he doesn't say 'I am going to rape you'.

 

[bookitty]

Grudge sexing?

Surprisingly common - Girl breaks up with guy at bar. Next night comes in, finds someone totally unsuitable, leaves almost immediately. Comes in next night and wants either high-fives or absolution from me for her daring, in-your-face or OMG! so stupid! act

ETA: me as in random bartender who is there to listen to her.

 

[johnny karate]

Let's try not to forget that the guy did not actually do this, and there is every chance he really did want a chat and coffee.

Bears repeating. The way this encounter is being described by some, one would think this guy was a passing Viking, pillaging the hotel. His only crimes seem to be bad timing and being unattractive.

 

[latsot]

I understand you probably don't mean it but you aren't half painting a picture of women that use these mediums are 'fair game'.

What I'm actually saying is that there are places people can go if they want to advertise their availability for casual sex. That's not the same as saying that anyone who goes to such a place is 'fair game' for anything. It would be odd to go to a singles bar and complain about being propositioned. But it's *not* odd to go into a lift and expect not to be propositioned.

 

[PGH]

Want to know a breathtakingly idiotic assertion? Stating that unless a woman has advertised her availability for casual sex that means casual sex has never happened.

Yep, that would be pretty idiotic. Fortunately, I didn't say that or anything like it. Go back in the comments as far as you like and you won't find me saying that. Neither will you find me changing my point. I came at the same point from several slightly different directions but I didn't change what I was saying.

*fires up WayBack Machine*

"NO WOMAN ADVERTISES THAT THEY WANT CASUAL SEX."

Untrue. But that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that even *if* you're right and no woman ever has advertised their availability for casual sex (a breathtakingly idiotic assertion) then that would mean that no woman ever was available for casual sex and I'm afraid you'd have to live with it. Barging up to someone and propositioning them without any attempt to make a connection would probably be unwelcome in a lot of cases. That's all I'm saying.

It's the internet. We can prove when you try to change your story. I'm guessing these arguments of yours work better in person? Where you can pretend to never have said what you in fact did say. You've done it a few times now.

 

[latsot]

You backed down from a firm and absolute statement into a much softer stance with far more qualifiers. You changed what you meant because you realised that your first statement was unsupportable, but you're not prepared to admit it.

It's okay, you can admit it. You'll feel better.

No, I really didn't. I stand by everything I've said.

 

[Humphreys]

Bears repeating. The way this encounter is being described by some, one would think this guy was a passing Viking, pillaging the hotel. His only crimes seem to be bad timing and being unattractive.

In other crazy news, a socially awkward man was encountered at a meeting for Skeptics, of all places.

 

[sphenisc]

But they tend to become known after you've lived in the country, married to someone from that country.

Which might be relevant if she had.

 

[latsot]

*fires up WayBack Machine*



It's the internet. We can prove when you try to change your story. I'm guessing these arguments of yours work better in person? Where you can pretend to never have said what you in fact did say. You've done it a few times now.

No, not at all. I might not have been clear on this point, let me try harder. I was trying to say that if no woman ever advertised her availability for casual sex, men would just have to put up with that. We don't have a right to expect that women should be available for casual sex.

I haven't changed my story at all.

 

[Delscottio]

What I'm actually saying is that there are places people can go if they want to advertise their availability for casual sex. That's not the same as saying that anyone who goes to such a place is 'fair game' for anything. It would be odd to go to a singles bar and complain about being propositioned. But it's *not* odd to go into a lift and expect not to be propositioned.

Of course its odd, the usual conventions are to get to know someone- singles bars aren't usually always about sex usually its about meeting for a possible relationship.

I find your view about these social settings more weird than a socially inept person making a pass in a lift. People don't imo advertise for casual sex. It just happens when 2 people meet at the correct time in the correct circumstances, usually when there's alcohol consumed

 

[AvalonXQ]

You said that no women advertising implies no women available. Are you now saying that you didn't mean that?

 

[Seismosaurus]

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand you: You think it's perfectly OK for a man to corner a woman

I'd object to the phrase "corner a woman". It implies that he chased her round the building until he got her to a place where she could run no more.

in an enclosed spaced late at night and out of sight of others and make what most reasonable people would see as a sexual proposition? Even though the man has had little - if any - interaction with her?

I'm not clear on the "little if any interaction with her", either. She'd been discussing issues in a bar. From what's been said my impression is that he was part of that group, which can mean anything from sitting in a big crowd unnoticed behind her in silence for the last ten minutes through to spending a hours engaged in discussion with her whilst others watched and chipped in.

Also "out of sight of others" may or may not be what it seems; most elevators have CCTV nowadays which would be recorded if not watched. An elevator also puts people out of sight of others typically for seconds at a time. it's not "out of sight of others" in any meaningful sense in the context of being worried about an assault.

Do you not think that the context in which the proposition is made might have an effect on how it is received?

I do. And if he'd ran up to her at 4 am in a darkened and deserted parking garage waving a meat cleaver and screaming "WANT TO COME TO MY ROOM!!!!" then I'd be the first to agree that he was in the wrong.

But as described, he did nothing wrong that I can see.

Yes, the guy should have been smart enough to realize ahead of time that his actions could come across as creepy or even threatening. Because if he doesn't realize that, then he must be ignorant of the fact that so many women suffer some form of sexual assault through their lives, or, if non ignorant, he just doesn't care that women get assaulted.

Oh, bullcrap. That's an absolutely absurd thing to say, and all it does is trivialize the experiences of those women who do find themselves in situations where they actually have some basis to feel threatened.

Such fears are not reasonable nor predictable. I make no claim that the women who feel them must or even should stop feeling that way - obviously people can't control such things, reasonable or not. So what are men who want to avoid causing those fears to do? I have my answer. Good luck with yours.

 

[3point14]

No, I really didn't. I stand by everything I've said.

Oh well, I'm sure you won't be told. PGH is right though, you need to choose your words with care when others can go back an read what you've read.