So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[roger]

By coffee, do you mean coffee or "coffee"?

I like coffee with my "coffee".

 

[WildCat]

So what does keep women from wanting to attend these conferences?

Probably the same thing that keeps them from Star Trek and comic book conventions.

 

[slingblade]

Why does saying you are beautiful have to mean your exterior shell? Couldn't he have meant your effort and your 'self' was beautiful?

It could have meant that, but in this case, it did not. It was followed by words like "I don't think you've lost your looks at all," "I think you're just as pretty as the day I met you," and so on, as I tried to tell him my looks aren't what matters to what I'm doing.

Maybe you had to be there, as I was, hmmm?

 

[rustypouch]

Oh ***** YOU*. You *KNOW* the answer to your own question. Don't pretend you don't.

Well, I was being extreme, and pushing things a bit. But it really is a concern for those of us who don't want to offend women, and do enjoy their company.

As has been mentioned before, and it is evident, women are not a monolithic group. People behave differently in the same situation because of personality, past experiences, and all sorts of other reasons.

I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. I know that there are guys out there who are way worse at these things than I am. I know because of misreading signals in the past, I have made women uncomfortable. I felt like a sack of trash after. I also know that because of misreading signals I have missed opportunities to spend alone time with some nice ladies. Both of these outcomes are undesirable to me.

How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?

We have to ask. It's the way our culture is, the onus is on the man to take the risks in the initial phases of a relationship. These risks include making
(possibly) unwanted advances, and the resulting uncomfortableness. Is there any way to entirely avoid this?

 

[Bytor]

That the message I take away from this is "Don't talk to women, because it might creep them out and if it does, that's the guy's fault."

Kinda sad, but there you go.

You know what I think is sad? That you didn't actually get what Rebecca Watson was trying to say. The take-away you get should should really be:

"Guys - be careful of how you hit on women, because some ways make us feel uncomfortable or even scared"​

In other words, display a little bit of social awareness as to how your actions may appear in context and a little bit of empathy as to the feelings your actions might invoke in the other person.

What I don't get is how so many people don't get that.

 

[3point14]

Well, I was being extreme, and pushing things a bit. But it really is a concern for those of us who don't want to offend women, and do enjoy their company.

As has been mentioned before, and it is evident, women are not a monolithic group. People behave differently in the same situation because of personality, past experiences, and all sorts of other reasons.

I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. I know that there are guys out there who are way worse at these things than I am. I know because of misreading signals in the past, I have made women uncomfortable. I felt like a sack of trash after. I also know that because of misreading signals I have missed opportunities to spend alone time with some nice ladies. Both of these outcomes are undesirable to me.

How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?

We have to ask. It's the way our culture is, the onus is on the man to take the risks in the initial phases of a relationship. These risks include making
(possibly) unwanted advances, and the resulting uncomfortableness. Is there any way to entirely avoid this?

It's tricky, and you have to understand the labelling.


Creep = awkward sexual advance from someone found unattractive
Player = confident sexual advance from someone found unattractive

Endearing = awkward sexual advance from someone found attractive
Hot = confident sexual advance from someone found attractive.


This works for both hetero and homo and for the staff and the distaff. The labelling may shift slightly, but 'creep' is in the eye of the beholder.

The trick is knowing into which category the prospective mate puts you. If you make a mistake because you're not psychic, you risk being labelled a creep or a player. It's a problem. As far as I can see, the men that get laid most (or rather with the most women) are men that don't care about being thought of as a creep or a player.

No, I have no idea how to work it out either.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If I'm making you uncomfortable, just run to the elevator, where it's safe.

OK. Will you come along and comfort me?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Probably the same thing that keeps them from Star Trek and comic book conventions.

The creepers.

 

[bookitty]

I do sympathize, but besides avoiding all interaction with women, how can we be certain to never to anything to frighten them?

By taking a quick moment to evaluate context. Are there other people around? Does she know who you are? If, instead of you standing there, it was a rapist, would this be an advantageous position for him?

If the answers are no, no and yes, then maybe just give a smile and see what happens. If her smile is tentative maybe wait until later. If her smile is broad and welcoming, introduce yourself. If her posture goes defensive, if her smile fades, or her answer seems more nervous than expected, if she looks uncomfortable, then back off.

This overblown Watson thing is a bit of a blessing within the skeptical community, because after backing a way a little, you can now say "Yikes! I guess this is like that elevator thing. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Hey, so what about that Muslim guy that kept shouting at PZ? That was weird."

 

[latsot]

"I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. "

Aw. Boo hoo.

"How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?"

It is really *really* simple. If she's not obviously advertising casual sex (for example, by being on a casual sex forum of some kind) don't act like she might want casual sex. Don't proposition her in a lift, for example. If you want sex, casual or otherwise, get to know the person. Make an effort. Demonstrate that you're interested in the person rather than just her naughty bits. Shy or not, it's the only way to do it. Whatever you do, don't blame women's freaking out at your stupid, clumsy advances for your inability to get your end away. It's all you and your attitude that's to blame, I'm afraid.

 

[PGH]

You know what I think is sad? That you didn't actually get what Rebecca Watson was trying to say. The take-away you get should should really be:

"Guys - be careful of how you hit on women, because some ways make us feel uncomfortable or even scared"​

In other words, display a little bit of social awareness as to how your actions may appear in context and a little bit of empathy as to the feelings your actions might invoke in the other person.

What I don't get is how so many people don't get that.

How is it sad that we don't "get that" when you can't even put it into concrete terms yourself? You didn't say what makes a woman feel uncomfortable. Why? Because we all know it can be absolutely anything. This woman was made uncomfortable by the most polite and harmless advance I could imagine.

So what is it? Is asking a woman to have coffee not acceptable? Or is it the time of day? Or is it the dreaded fear of being alone in a enclosed space with a male (gasp!)

You act like it's simple and easy to figure out when it's absolutely not. It's different for every single woman on the planet and you don't let us know beforehand the rules of the game. You just quietly wait for us to do something wrong and then act shocked.

It's tricky, and you have to understand the labelling.


Creep = awkward sexual advance from someone found unattractive
Player = confident sexual advance from someone found unattractive

Endearing = awkward sexual advance from someone found attractive
Hot = confident sexual advance from someone found attractive.


This works for both hetero and homo and for the staff and the distaff. The labelling may shift slightly, but 'creep' is in the eye of the beholder.

The trick is knowing into which category the prospective mate puts you. If you make a mistake because you're not psychic, you risk being labelled a creep or a player. It's a problem. As far as I can see, the men that get laid most (or rather with the most women) are men that don't care about being thought of as a creep or a player.

No, I have no idea how to work it out either.

Seconded.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You know what I think is sad? That you didn't actually get what Rebecca Watson was trying to say. The take-away you get should should really be:

"Guys - be careful of how you hit on women, because some ways make us feel uncomfortable or even scared"​

In other words, display a little bit of social awareness as to how your actions may appear in context and a little bit of empathy as to the feelings your actions might invoke in the other person.

What I don't get is how so many people don't get that.

If a woman expects there to be no creepy guys out there, how does that differ from other kinds of magical thinking?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's tricky, and you have to understand the labelling.


Creep = awkward sexual advance from someone found unattractive
Player = confident sexual advance from someone found unattractive

Endearing = awkward sexual advance from someone found attractive
Hot = confident sexual advance from someone found attractive.

....

Well said.

 

[3point14]

"I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. "

Aw. Boo hoo.

"How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?"

It is really *really* simple. If she's not obviously advertising casual sex (for example, by being on a casual sex forum of some kind) don't act like she might want casual sex. Don't proposition her in a lift, for example. If you want sex, casual or otherwise, get to know the person. Make an effort. Demonstrate that you're interested in the person rather than just her naughty bits. Shy or not, it's the only way to do it. Whatever you do, don't blame women's freaking out at your stupid, clumsy advances for your inability to get your end away. It's all you and your attitude that's to blame, I'm afraid.

I'm impressed that you have managed to speak for all women everywhere.

I'll bet you a tenner that somewhere in the world is a woman who, at a conference, was propositioned by a stranger in an elevator, accepted and had a thoroughly good time. I'll bet you there's more than one.

 

[PGH]

"I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. "

Aw. Boo hoo.

"How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?"

It is really *really* simple. If she's not obviously advertising casual sex (for example, by being on a casual sex forum of some kind) don't act like she might want casual sex. Don't proposition her in a lift, for example. If you want sex, casual or otherwise, get to know the person. Make an effort. Demonstrate that you're interested in the person rather than just her naughty bits. Shy or not, it's the only way to do it. Whatever you do, don't blame women's freaking out at your stupid, clumsy advances for your inability to get your end away. It's all you and your attitude that's to blame, I'm afraid.

"I was made to feel uncomfortable by a man making advances at me on the elevator."

Aw. Boo hoo.

As to your "really simple" example you state that unless a woman is on an internet forum actively looking for casual sex don't proposition them for it. You do know that casual sex was around before the internet correct? Women do not advertise that they want casual sex for the most part. They just wait for a man they find appealing to make a move. Therefore we are the ones who have to go around to women on a regular basis to see if sexual gratification can be achieved.

If we left it to you ladies cockroaches would be the ones having this debate.

And clearly you know very little about casual sex since you recommend that people who want to engage in it should get to know each other better first. Maybe they should go on a few dates before having casual sex?

 

[fls]

Hey baby wanna get a room, your sessy??

My what?

Linda

 

[bookitty]

I'm impressed that you have managed to speak for all women everywhere.

I'll bet you a tenner that somewhere in the world is a woman who, at a conference, was propositioned by a stranger in an elevator, accepted and had a thoroughly good time. I'll bet you there's more than one.

The numbers game again. If you hit on 100 women, you might make 20 of them really uncomfortable, 40 of them annoyed, and bore another 39 but if one, just one sleeps with you, it's totally worth it.

 

[gnome]

It's tricky, and you have to understand the labelling.


Creep = awkward sexual advance from someone found unattractive
Player = confident sexual advance from someone found unattractive

Endearing = awkward sexual advance from someone found attractive
Hot = confident sexual advance from someone found attractive.


This works for both hetero and homo and for the staff and the distaff. The labelling may shift slightly, but 'creep' is in the eye of the beholder.

The trick is knowing into which category the prospective mate puts you. If you make a mistake because you're not psychic, you risk being labelled a creep or a player. It's a problem. As far as I can see, the men that get laid most (or rather with the most women) are men that don't care about being thought of as a creep or a player.

No, I have no idea how to work it out either.

A cynical take that often has a grain of truth, but I still think that even an awkward person who doesn't think of themselves as attractive can consistently make contact with the opposite sex without causing the creeps. I know this from personal experience--it is a learnable skill.

Maybe this conundrum deserves a new thread.

 

[latsot]

I'm impressed that you have managed to speak for all women everywhere.

I'll bet you a tenner that somewhere in the world is a woman who, at a conference, was propositioned by a stranger in an elevator, accepted and had a thoroughly good time. I'll bet you there's more than one.

Oh grow up. I never once pretended to speak for all women everywhere. I tried to explain one of the reasons why some women might feel uncomfortable in such a position/

 

[bookitty]

Therefore we are the ones who have to go around to women on a regular basis to see if sexual gratification can be achieved.

Just in case people think I'm a bit too strident, I'd like to point out that I'm letting this go. I can recognize futility.