General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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The Fool said:
get to some sort of point....I am quite old and may not last long enough if you prat around much more...
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Why do you think all the major political parties in Palestine are terrorist groups?

Could it be that it's because the majority of Palestinians support them?
 
WildCat said:
Why do you think all the major political parties in Palestine are terrorist groups?

Could it be that it's because the majority of Palestinians support them?
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The PA is a terrorist group? Or are you categorising them in that way because they have evolved from a terrorist group earlier in thier history (like Likud).


I would say that the Palestinians are the way they are because of the grand sum of thier situation, history and life experiences......or possibly its just some genetic inferiority, what do you think?
 
The Fool said:
The PA is a terrorist group?
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They're a political party? :confused:

The Fool said:
Or are you categorising them in that way because they have evolved from a terrorist group earlier in thier history (like Likud).
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Who is "them"? Hamas? Fatah? DFLP?

The Fool said:
I would say that the Palestinians are the way they are because of the grand sum of thier situation, history and life experiences......or possibly its just some genetic inferiority, what do you think?
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I think it's because they can't accept the existence of Israel, and they support terrorism if it hurts Israel.
 
The Fool said:
I would say that the Palestinians are the way they are because of the grand sum of thier situation, history and life experiences......or possibly its just some genetic inferiority, what do you think?
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Honor-shame culture. Lack of an instinct of compromise.
 
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WildCat said:
I think it's because they can't accept the existence of Israel, and they support terrorism if it hurts Israel.
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Fair enough...you don't think its had anything to do with thier experiences throughout thier history? Its just this thing they have about Israel....what if Israel was in the north American continent, would palestinians still be driven to hate them?

I'm just curious to find out if you wash Israeli governments throughout this time from all responsibility for the current crap situation? There are plenty of warmongering fundie idiots on the Palestinian side....what about Israel?
 
bikerdruid said:
so the opening of mega shopping malls is the hallmark of a successful society?
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According to you, it's the hallmark of "pretty good administrators". (Warning: That link contains clear ethnic, if not racial, bigotry, in addition to approving comments about people who open mega shopping malls.)

What would you say of someone who opened a mega shopping mall in your neck of the woods, BD?
 
The Fool said:
Fair enough...you don't think its had anything to do with thier experiences throughout thier history? Its just this thing they have about Israel....what if Israel was in the north American continent, would palestinians still be driven to hate them?

I'm just curious to find out if you wash Israeli governments throughout this time from all responsibility for the current crap situation? There are plenty of warmongering fundie idiots on the Palestinian side....what about Israel?
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Frankly, I don't give a damn why they act the way they do. Other groups have had a far worse hand dealt to them and they don't resort to terrorism and genocide as a response. The Palestinian terrorist groups have no excuses for their actions.
 
The Fool said:
does this make Israel a terrorist state? if they allow humanitarian aid into Gaza......they are providing material aid to Hamas.
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Depends upon the nature of the material. I admit, when I first read your post, I chuckled.

Have you bothered to look up the laws and customs of a blockade? One of many laws and customs related to them is that once you declare a blockade you have to enforce it, or it isn't something you can resort to.

No Paper Blockades. Put another way, if you declare a blockade, you can't selectively enforce it, or just pull over one or two. You have to go whole hog.

That said, I think it is very kind of the Greek government to have offered to provide the means of getting the aid to Gaza in a legitimate and secure form. Nice way to meet everyone in the middle. I also think it a good move of the Israelis to agree that the Greeks could act as honest brokers.

Let's see of the stuff gets to where it needs go to. If not, this thread belongs in the general Israel Palestine thread, doesn't it?
 
a_unique_person said:
They planned it to be non violent the first time. Not everyone agreed, apparently.
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And had the first one been stopped at the last port, it would also be called a non-violent protest. They made sure not to use the blade saws to cup up the ship railings needed to stab and beat the IDF with until AFTER they left port.
 
WildCat said:
Frankly, I don't give a damn why they act the way they do. Other groups have had a far worse hand dealt to them and they don't resort to terrorism and genocide as a response. The Palestinian terrorist groups have no excuses for their actions.
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so what shall we do with them?
 
a_unique_person said:
You just said, two parties are involved in the Palestinians being allowed to declare that they are a state. Therefore, the Palestinians are not allowed to unilaterally declare they are a state.
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No I didn't. Two parties are disputing their borders. Both will eventually change their border. The argument some people are making (for god knows what reason) is that Palestine cannot become a state because Israel is on land they consider to belong to the Palestinians. yet the dispute in territory hasn't prevented Israel from being a state. How can Israel be a state if their borders are about to be changed? I mean if the laws of magic dictate it's impossible to declare yourself a state without having an exact/specific border that will never change, how does that work?

The Palestinians can declare a state any day they want. The very worst scenario is Israel not recognizing it. But that would require Palestine declaring parts that Israel considers to be theirs.

You guys really have me at a loss with this one. I would just love for someone to explain this. If the Palestinians declared a state, what would happen? Do you think Israel would bomb them for it? Is there some international law that declares a country cannot become a state unless Israel gives the thumbs up? Or does a magic genie declare that a country cannot be a state unless they get the exact land they want in a dispute and cannot continue to negotiate is later?
 
The Fool said:
They were the only ones with a realistic ability to run the things the winner would be required to run. Face it wildcat it was a 2 horse race..... Its a bit like saying you can write in the local dogcatcher in US election ballots so the choice is not really just republican or democrat......yea, whatever.....hey, what about the Libertarians!!!! I forgot them.

The vast majority of commentary you will see on the elections don't even mention the handfull of wallys that also stood......but they have a purpose I suppose (helping you hairsplit to avoid the obvious implication of the question).
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Great, so no matter who they elect it's the fault of the Jews.
 
Jonnyclueless said:
No I didn't. Two parties are disputing their borders. Both will eventually change their border. The argument some people are making (for god knows what reason) is that Palestine cannot become a state because Israel is on land they consider to belong to the Palestinians. yet the dispute in territory hasn't prevented Israel from being a state. How can Israel be a state if their borders are about to be changed? I mean if the laws of magic dictate it's impossible to declare yourself a state without having an exact/specific border that will never change, how does that work?

The Palestinians can declare a state any day they want. The very worst scenario is Israel not recognizing it. But that would require Palestine declaring parts that Israel considers to be theirs.
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Israel is working in the UN to ensure that if they do that, they won't be recognised by a lot more than just Israel. Did you read the very first link I provided? Also, according to the charter of Likud, the party in power, "Declaration of a State A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."


What "stringent" means is not made clear, but it doesn't amount to "soft" or "nothing".
 
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Virus said:
They killed 20 million people. It wasn't a wrong interpretation of history. It was hysteria.

Your problem is that you assume all human behaviour is rationally explicable. Hence your repeated dismissal of what the Palestinians actually say in favour of what they "should" say.
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Not rationally explicable, repeated over time. I have not dismissed what Palestinians say, I'm saying many people have said similar things over time, and that clashes between cultures over a piece of land can continue over centuries. The Zionists knew that when they arrived to create a new Israel. That was why they had an airforce ready to go when they declared independence.

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126

Amazon.com Review

In 1897, under order of First Zionist Congress president Theodor Herzl, two Austrian rabbis traveled to Palestine to explore the possibility of locating a Jewish state there. "The bride is beautiful," the rabbis cabled Herzl, "but she is married to another man." That "other man" was the Palestinian Arab nation, long established in the region as a political entity. Undeterred, Herzl pressed on with his program of emigration, ignoring Palestine's existing occupants and creating in the process what came to be known as the "Arab question." In this far-ranging history, Avi Shlaim analyzes that question in remarkable detail, tracing the shifting policies of Israel toward the Palestinians and the Arab world at large. Herzl, he writes, followed a policy that consciously sought to enlist the great powers--principally Britain and later the United States--while dismissing indigenous claims to sovereignty; after all, Herzl argued, "the Arab problem paled in significance compared with the Jewish problem because the Arabs had vast spaces outside Palestine, whereas for the Jews, who were being persecuted in Europe, Palestine constituted the only possible haven." This policy later changed to a stance of confrontation against the admittedly hostile surrounding Arab powers, especially Syria, Jordan, and Egypt; this militant stance was a source of controversy in the international community, and it also divided Israelis into hawk and dove factions. The intransigence of those hawks, Shlaim shows, served to alienate Israel and made it possible for the Palestine Liberation Organization and other Arab nationalist groups to enlist the support of the great powers that Herzl had long before courted. Both sides, in turn, had eventually to face the "historic compromise" that led to the present peace in the Middle East--a peace that, the author suggests, may not endure. --Gregory McNamee --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
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http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126


They knew what was coming, and I don't doubt they wanted it to turn out peacefully. They just never figured out how that was going to happen. Two round pegs in one round hole.
 
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