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What do feminists want?

Skeptic Ginger said:
I find your view that women are vulnerable in a hotel elevator to be insulting.
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A pity, because it is a fact of life.

There are exceptions of course, most notably if the woman has black belt in Krav Magga (and the man does not), or she is the female equivalent of a sumo wrestler in size and fitness, or she keeps one hand constantly in the handbag that contains pepper gas or some other suitable weapon.

Skeptic Ginger said:
Are men vulnerable in hotel elevators?
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Yes, most notably if the other person in the elevator has black belt in Krav Magga, or is like a sumo wrestler in size and fitness, or keeps one hand constantly in a plastic bag that contains pepper gas or some other suitable weapon.
 
Ignoring the larger sexism issues, I would personally have felt uncomfortable if someone I had never spoken to before asked me to go back to his room at 4am in an elevator. (I am male btw).

I would probably have assumed that he was hitting on me, which in turn would have made me uncomfortable as well. I personally do not like being buttonholed or approached and talked to in an elevator. If the same person had approached me at the bar, 10 mins earlier, that would have been fine and I would probably have welcomed it. A bar is a place for socialisation, an elevator is not (for me at least).

Really for me this is a case of treating a women the same way I would treat a man, because I cannot see myself making that kind of suggestion to anyone at 4am in the morning in an elevator. (And I have been drunk at conferences, interested in discussing the interesting topic of the day with other conferences goers)
 
A person is using the hotel elevator at night.

Another person in the same elevator, obviously drunk, suggests something dirty.

If the drunk person is a man and the other is a woman, she probably feels a bit cautious about the proposal. She might not have the option (de facto, even if she has de jure) of agreeing to enter another person´s hotel room and then refusing sex, so she must make the decision right there and then to accept or refuse.

If it is vice versa, the man more probably feels intrested in the opportunity.
 
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JJM 777 said:
If the drunk person is a man and the other is a woman, she probably feels a bit cautious about the proposal. If it is vice versa, the man more probably feels intrested in the opportunity.
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Agreed. But the key thing is the "probably" in both the sentences. To stretch the analogy to breaking point if the man had earlier mentioned he is married (in the same way Rebecca had mentioned in her talk that she did not like being approached in such a manner) then I'm sure that a drunk woman propositioning the man would also be seen as inappropriate.

Maybe we should just have a "no hitting on anyone in an elevator except if they have expressed an interest in this activity beforehand" rule :p
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
How can this be that difficult?

I find your view that women are vulnerable in a hotel elevator to be insulting. Are men vulnerable in hotel elevators? Are women incapable of crossing a small creek without falling in?

It's just my opinion of the situation. There is no right or wrong to argue here unless you want to dig up some data about how many assaults occur in hotel elevators.
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As a woman, I don't find it insulting, I find it realistic. The average male is physically stronger than the average female. I think the sense of vulnerability in the elevator is a matter of being physically overpowered in a place where not only is there no place to run, there is also no way for anyone to get to you, should you call for help. I am not saying that you should feel vulnerable, just explaining how I see it as reasonable for someone else to feel vulnerable.

Yes, any person, male or female, could be assaulted anywhere. Does that translate to any place a guy ever propositions a woman is wrong because the woman is vulnerable?
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He said that he found her to be very interesting, indicating that he listened to what she had to say. The problem is, what she had to say was, "being objectified makes me uncomfortable." I will even go with the notion that the invitation was completely innocent and he had no intentions of hitting on her; that he really just wanted to talk. Even still, be careful of the words you choose; back to your/my place; your/my room; someplace a little more private; those all tend to be indicators of wanting more than innocent conversation.
 
I think there's an obvious solution.

If we didn't let women go out in public alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion. They should stay at home, or if they must leave the house, be accompanied by a male family member.

If everyone did this, situations like Ms. Watson's would never occur.

:p
 
@Rusty - would you perhaps consider a full-body covering garment to ensure that no part of the female physique can entice a male to behave inappropriately? :rolleyes:
 
The key here is "unwanted" - because you are the unequal gender in the majority of relationship pairings, and so, so much is overtly or subtly sexualized in a manner that reinforces gender inequality - that it's tough to see the subtly in a male/female low-level exchange. However - if this was a hetero guy, who said he wanted some sleep, and a big (self-identified) gay guy made the same comment - there may be an opportunity for Joe Hetero to reflect - was that guy just hitting on me? Not a lot of body language described, and that can really make the nuance of the statement crystal clear...And if Joe Hetero said, hey, there was this party foul - don't give your group (gay men) and my group (hetero men) more fodder for conflict - would there have been so much of the blame-the-(presumed)victim lathering?

Why should she, after being clear on her destination (her room, sleep, done for the night), suffer foolish offers?

Do you think this was a first time and a learning curve, or that she might be tired of it and advocating for more thoughtful social interaction?

The answer to "what do feminists want" is for men and women to take each other's claims seriously when the radar goes off. It is really demoralizing to be "hit on" in a professional setting. If he wanted more talk - there are other venues, or you suggest something for the next day. It is also terrible to be misunderstood, but it's pointed out publicly "hey, don't do this," as a PSA even if it's benign intent.
 
Aurelian said:
The answer to "what do feminists want" is for men and women to take each other's claims seriously when the radar goes off. It is really demoralizing to be "hit on" in a professional setting. If he wanted more talk - there are other venues, or you suggest something for the next day. It is also terrible to be misunderstood, but it's pointed out publicly "hey, don't do this," as a PSA even if it's benign intent.
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The PSA is not warranted. Another guy doing that to another girl might have ended up mutually beneficial. And since when in an atheist conference a professional meeting? I haven't been to one, but they seem like recreational affairs.
 
ThunderChunky said:
The PSA is not warranted. Another guy doing that to another girl might have ended up mutually beneficial. And since when in an atheist conference a professional meeting? I haven't been to one, but they seem like recreational affairs.
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At that conference Rebecca was on a panel with Richard Dawkins. That may not make it professional enough for someone who hasn't bothered to attend but it wasn't exactly frivolous.

On that panel, she discussed sexual objectification, sexism and how being an atheist activist gained her a different sort of unwelcome attention then her male colleges experienced. because Dawkins was on that panel there is a very good chance that the Elevator Guy was there to hear that talk. (Although the idea that a more casual setting makes it all right to be an ass is odd.)

He hit on her anyway. This isn't about all men, all women and all elevators. This is about listening to what someone says. Even if what they are saying is "no." It's also about being aware of your surroundings.

Also small hint for free: The numbers game is kinda gross. Hitting on many women in less than ideal circumstances in hopes that one of them will eventually give in means that you are willing to add discomfort to the lives of many people in the unproven hope that you will eventually gain some benefit.
 
Antiquehunter said:
@Rusty - would you perhaps consider a full-body covering garment to ensure that no part of the female physique can entice a male to behave inappropriately? :rolleyes:
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What better way to show the world that the atheist/skeptical community is thoroughly modern than a fashionable organic cotton burqa printed up with Carl Sagan quotes, scarlet A's and Darwin fishies.
 
Well I would be happy to bring you a genuine Burqua from Afghanistan, suitable for ironic decoration - however I should alert you it is some nasty poly-blend.
 
rustypouch said:
I think there's an obvious solution.

If we didn't let women go out in public alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion. They should stay at home, or if they must leave the house, be accompanied by a male family member.

If everyone did this, situations like Ms. Watson's would never occur.

:p
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And heaven forbid any woman stay alone in a hotel without asking for security escorts when coming and going on the elevator at night. :rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And heaven forbid any woman stay alone in a hotel without asking for security escorts when coming and going on the elevator at night. :rolleyes:
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Depends on the hotel. I think you're probably OK at the South Point, but at the Western downtown, I think I would like a guard escort, nothing to do with gender.
 
Antiquehunter said:
Depends on the hotel. I think you're probably OK at the South Point, but at the Western downtown, I think I would like a guard escort, nothing to do with gender.
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An assault can occur anywhere and undoubtedly they have occurred n elevators. The quality of the hotel does not protect one. What does is that these things are extremely uncommon. A little common sense is typically enough. You don't have to be afraid of your shadow.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
 
Early in the thread, I noticed these comments and have to ask a question.

JudeBrando said:
In general,

They oppose most general notions of the feminine,
and wish to assume most general notions of the masculine for women,
all resting upon a general foundation of antagonism to men.

Feminism is masculism.

It is women who demonstrate how they are against men and don't need men and don't like men by trying to be like men in every way.

Generally speaking.
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And... with admittedly the more responsible qualifier "radical"...

BobTheCoward said:
I know radical feminists (by the way, something with such a readily available definition I was amazed it was debated for pages) by definition, seek to abolish the patriarchy which would naturally then lead to genderless society.
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The question is--where are people encountering this point of view? I mean, I can go on the internet and find anyone saying about anything... but specifically to anyone who thinks of this primarily when they hear "feminist"... what experience led you to that major impression?

I've never even encountered an honest-to-goodness radical feminist... the most radical I've met are a bit quick to see an issue through that lens, but hardly propose anything like a "genderless society" or blanket hatred of anything having to do with maleness.

Maybe if someone was lucky (?) enough to encounter a radical feminist or two, it tends to make them anticipate a similar opinion by others that have not explicitly said it?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
An assault can occur anywhere and undoubtedly they have occurred n elevators. The quality of the hotel does not protect one. What does is that these things are extremely uncommon. A little common sense is typically enough. You don't have to be afraid of your shadow.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
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Well, I once stayed at the Western as part of a review of cheap hotels I was doing in Vegas, and based on my experience, I didn't feel entirely safe there. Not because it was a low quality hotel - actually, for $19 a night, it was pretty decent considering... But the number of audible domestic disputes and clearly drug-addled patrons around was a bit offputting. :)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm sorry. But what I'm having a hard time with here is the idea one wants to be liberated at the same time one is playing up the vulnerable woman theme.
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I quite agree with this, and that's what I'm trying to say.

Women can either

1) Demand to be treated differently from men, or

2) Demand to be treated equally as men

One can construct elaborate reasons for either, but doing both simultaneously leads to contradictions. One can face these contradictions, or not.
 
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