Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Here are some links to the two letters:

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo476174.shtml

Guede's "German Diary":
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/RudysPrisonDiary.pdf


I agree that the handwriting doesn't match. Is there a reason the defense wouldn't point this out?

There are similarities in style of particular letters. The newer text seems to be written much neater and with more care then the "diary", that may account for some of the sense of difference. However the style of letters "m", "n" and "z" are completely different, that's a fact.

 

[LondonJohn]

There are similarities in style of particular letters. The newer text seems to be written much neater and with more care then the "diary", that may account for some of the sense of difference. However the style of letters "m", "n" and "z" are completely different, that's a fact.

Not to mention the completely different slant to the writing, and the very different way that most of the capital letters are written. I imagine that an experienced and respected forensic document analyst* would be able to give a firm opinion as to whether the two pieces were written by the same hand.

* NOT a graphologist (which is nothing more than bunkum pseudoscience that is provably unreliable)

 

[Katody Matrass]

Agreed. But that's why I mentioned the evidence about his going clubbing within hours of the murder, and disappearing across Europe within 48 hours. The two pieces put together can only lead a reasonable person to conclude that a) Guede was there at the time of the murder, and b) Guede wasn't trying to help Meredith - his behaviour after the event is completely and utterly at odds with that claim (as is his failure to contact any emergency services at any time - even anonymously via a payphone).

Important thing is that his story about how Meredith was killed makes no sense. It's interesting as it was a highlight of his last appeal. It's very improbable that he had a date with Meredith, then Amanda rang a doorbell and simply killed Meredith, but that's his version.

 

[LondonJohn]

Important thing is that his story about how Meredith was killed makes no sense. It's interesting as it was a highlight of his last appeal. It's very improbable that he had a date with Meredith, then Amanda rang a doorbell and simply killed Meredith, but that's his version.

Of course, and it's something that I also referred to earlier. Guede is a liar (possibly a pathological liar). It's been categorically shown that multiple elements of his version of events are either total inventions or unlikely to the point of impossibility. He's therefore discredited himself so much that no reasonable person can find anything he says/writes to be reliable - especially when what he says is predominantly self-serving. Q.E.D.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Not to mention the completely different slant to the writing, and the very different way that most of the capital letters are written. I imagine that an experienced and respected forensic document analyst* would be able to give a firm opinion as to whether the two pieces were written by the same hand.

* NOT a graphologist (which is nothing more than bunkum pseudoscience that is provably unreliable)

The simplest way would be to ask him to write something else and show it. It's a pity defence lawyers missed this opportunity while he was available.
Though it can't be excluded that he greatly improved his handwriting while studying for his maturity(?) exam in jail.

 

[LondonJohn]

This piece of idiocy from "The Machine" deserves to be singled out:

I agree with you. I also enjoyed Bolint's humour. I just hope he/she doesn't end like Fine who went over to JREF to argue with the groupies and came back a brainwashed troll and a very annoying one at that. Not since Patty Hearst has someone been brainwashed so completely.

 

[tsig]

Is that your way of saying 'I'm busted!'

Seriously, Platonov, hasn't it occurred to you by now that the only source that actually knows anything about the case that still thinks them guilty, is not only fanatical about that belief far past what the evidence could possibly suggest, but invents absurd conspiracy theories trying to 'connect' the vast multitudes of disparate people who disagree?
For example, wouldn't it make more sense that anyone who 'associates' with the FOA are people who think them more or less correct and their cause just?

Isn't that how it actually works for just about every other organization?

Are you talking about the Italian judges? They must know something about the case and if they're as fanatical as you say then all hope for Amanda is lost.

 

[Kaosium]

I think Hellmann had a virtual obligation to examine the claims of the inmates: if either claim had been reliably verified (always unlikely, but that needed to be tested), then they would almost certainly have resulted in acquittals all by themselves. So the potential significance of the inmates' claims outweighed the likelihood of their veracity.

I've been wondering about that, the whole 'respect' thing from Mignini and Maresca up until the Supreme Court Motivations Report on Guede's conviction, including the 'I was there' nonsense, but openly allowing for people other than Raffaele and Amanda being the other people involved, and now the curious inclusion of these inmates.

I wonder if this is just one of the ...eccentricities...of the Italian Court System? In other words to wrap things up 'logically' the Courts include the data point of the 'I was there' statement as a 'possibility,' and then leave it open as to who it was being as they could hardly convict Raffaele and Amanda. Thus the defense in this trial, simply to make things easier for Hellmann to acquit, brings forth other 'possibilities,' notably the inmate stories as 'datum' so when he writes his motivations he can put those in there to 'fill the place' of whoever else it could have been. Just like the 'I was there' statement being included, they don't actually mean anything other than simply wrapping things up tidily?

So the Massei Court, with its conclusion of multiple killers, gets 'respected' through the stories of Alessi et al but it has no real effect on anything else?

 

[Kaosium]

Are you talking about the Italian judges? They must know something about the case and if they're as fanatical as you say then all hope for Amanda is lost.

Which Italian judges would you be referring to?

 

[ForTruth]

Thanks. I was wrong then (partially)

And I was partially wrong as well. Glad to learn a new detail about that fateful night after I've been following this case for so long.

For what it's worth here's a ref to Amanda's memoriale: wwwDOTtelegraphDOTcoDOTuk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/6728473/Meredith-Kercher-trial-Amanda-Knox-in-picturesDOThtml?image=18
(replace DOTs with actual "."s) ... i really need to get to 15 posts...

And the 5:45AM typed statement is actually the previous image in the image library of the previous link I shared.

 

[LondonJohn]

I've been wondering about that, the whole 'respect' thing from Mignini and Maresca up until the Supreme Court Motivations Report on Guede's conviction, including the 'I was there' nonsense, but openly allowing for people other than Raffaele and Amanda being the other people involved, and now the curious inclusion of these inmates.

I wonder if this is just one of the ...eccentricities...of the Italian Court System? In other words to wrap things up 'logically' the Courts include the data point of the 'I was there' statement as a 'possibility,' and then leave it open as to who it was being as they could hardly convict Raffaele and Amanda. Thus the defense in this trial, simply to make things easier for Hellmann to acquit, brings forth other 'possibilities,' notably the inmate stories as 'datum' so when he writes his motivations he can put those in there to 'fill the place' of whoever else it could have been. Just like the 'I was there' statement being included, they don't actually mean anything other than simply wrapping things up tidily?

So the Massei Court, with its conclusion of multiple killers, gets 'respected' through the stories of Alessi et al but it has no real effect on anything else?

It's a possibility. But it bears repeating that Hellmann's court is completely at liberty to rule that in its view the crime was committed by a lone assailant. It's also possible (and in fact, fairly likely) for Hellmann's court not to propose a scenario for the murder whatsoever: all it needs to rule on is whether Knox/Sollecito are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of participation in the murder. If Hellmann's court acquits, then all it needs to say is why it was persuaded that the two were not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And that doesn't require a full description by Hellmann of what he thinks DID happen.

 

[Kaosium]

Not to mention the completely different slant to the writing, and the very different way that most of the capital letters are written. I imagine that an experienced and respected forensic document analyst* would be able to give a firm opinion as to whether the two pieces were written by the same hand.

* NOT a graphologist (which is nothing more than bunkum pseudoscience that is provably unreliable)

Is 'graphology' that one where they try to glean 'psychological insights' from your handwriting? One of my French professors in college was into that, he once had us all go up to the board and sign our names so he could practice his hobby. Since a signature to me is simply something I want to be able to do quickly and all it has to be is distinctive, after about the first letter it's more or less scribbling, with a little flourish for identification purposes.

He went through them offering his 'insights'...until he got to mine and he looked at me very strangely. Not much he offer in the way of 'analysis' I guess....

 

[tsig]

Which Italian judges would you be referring to?

The ones hearing the case.

 

[Kaosium]

It's a possibility. But it bears repeating that Hellmann's court is completely at liberty to rule that in its view the crime was committed by a lone assailant. It's also possible (and in fact, fairly likely) for Hellmann's court not to propose a scenario for the murder whatsoever: all it needs to rule on is whether Knox/Sollecito are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of participation in the murder. If Hellmann's court acquits, then all it needs to say is why it was persuaded that the two were not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And that doesn't require a full description by Hellmann of what he thinks DID happen.

Ah, that didn't occur to me, he would be writing a very different sort of report than a 'Motivations' one, wouldn't he? I was just thinking that might explain what Mignini and Maresca were getting at, and that Rolling Stone article indicated it had to do with multiple assailants, thus the defense might want to include those possibilities so Hellmann doesn't have to 'buck' too many other courts. Incidentally, have you read that piece by (I think) Nathanial Rich? It's an excellent portrait of the ordeal so far.

 

[Kaosium]

The ones hearing the case.

What evidence do you have they consider them guilty?

 

[Kaosium]

This piece of idiocy from "The Machine" deserves to be singled out:

I wonder if they will try to track poor Fine down? Send Roland after him with a machine in hand?

"Patty Hearst

heard the burst

of Roland's Thompson gun

And bought it!"

 

[shuttlt]

Its NEVER ok to imprison people unjustly.

It might have been somewhat excusable around the time of the first trial for some of Kercher's actions, and we can all grieve for him

At this point in the game however, to have himself a representative who is COMMITTED to keeping two people unjustly imprisoned, and to, and here's the important part, keep the truth about the crimes against his own daughter secret?

No, he's lost the sympathy defense for his immoral actions

Do you think he believes they are innocent, but wants to keep them in prison anyway? Or do you mean that he believes they are guilty, but is acting unjustly in some way to try to keep people he believes are guilty behind bars?

 

[Chris C]

Do you think he believes they are innocent, but wants to keep them in prison anyway? Or do you mean that he believes they are guilty, but is acting unjustly in some way to try to keep people he believes are guilty behind bars?

I agree, the man clearly believes they are guilty and has believed everything the prosecution told him. It takes time to get rid of hate. Give him time to absorb the facts. The DNA results just came out. If you wanna blame someone, blame his lawyer. If his lawyer is still saying they are guilty the father will believe it to. Until those that perpetrated this unjust conviction are held accountable for their lies, the father will continue to believe them guilty.

 

[LondonJohn]

Is 'graphology' that one where they try to glean 'psychological insights' from your handwriting? One of my French professors in college was into that, he once had us all go up to the board and sign our names so he could practice his hobby. Since a signature to me is simply something I want to be able to do quickly and all it has to be is distinctive, after about the first letter it's more or less scribbling, with a little flourish for identification purposes.

He went through them offering his 'insights'...until he got to mine and he looked at me very strangely. Not much he offer in the way of 'analysis' I guess....

Yeah that's the one. I once had to provide a sample of my handwriting to the investment bank SG Warburg which was to be used for graphology analysis (I was applying for a graduate position, and this was the mid-90s when graphology had quite a few adherents). I have no idea what they "divined" from my handwriting, but I didn't get offered a job there (I got one at a much nicer investment bank instead )

Graphology is a total nonsense. All proper double-blind tests have shown that "expert" graphologists frequently contradict each other on the same sample, and that the times where their opinions coincide are usually because they all know the phony ground rules of the game (e.g. "if the lower-case i is dotted high above the downstroke portion of the letter, then the writer has commitment issues (or whatever)). A lot of people made a fair bit of money out of graphology in the 90s (including fooling a fair few large companies that should have known better). I suspect that most of these "graphologists" have now found some other new pseudoscience scam to become "experts" in.

 

[Kaosium]

RoseMontague,

The dream business sounds as if the witness (florist?) was being coaxed into saying something then retracting it. Was he asked to imagine something? This case just gets stranger and stranger.

Unbelievable.

Now they have the whole family involved, plus their lawyers, now they're prosecuting the florist for the 'dream'--this PM is following Mignini's playbook. I suspect they need to make an object lesson of these two prosecutors, otherwise this nonsense might become commonplace. Put these two PMs in jail, and not for a short time, that would stem the tide of these magistrates uncovering all these 'conspiracies' instead of doing their jobs and solving crimes.