Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[komponisto]

Can anyone give me a translation of this?

Translation:

G: You agree...you agree that the statement is pure fantasy?

I: Do you agree that the statement was fantasy, fiction, was...?

M: Half and half. Because she's switching, trying to switch...

I: Half yes, half no.

G: We know that Lumumba wasn't there.

I: But we know that Lumumba wasn't there.

M: But Rudy was. There was still a black person.

G: How can we trust the rest?

G: How can we know? How can we mange to know when she makes the statement?

I: How can we manage to know when she makes...makes the statement?

M: We know because she...we know that Rudy was there, Lumumba wasn't, so she....we know that they were together, because they were seen, we know....from all...we know this from all the facts, so obviously when she was....when she found herself in difficulty with the police, who were saying: "But how? Sollecito has given you up, what are you going to tell us?" This is why [...] and so then she....Rudy had gotten away, she didn't know what....she tried to cover for him at first and given that there was this call from...from...from Lumumba, she put Lumumba in the role that was actually Rudy's, there were two men [...]

I: She switched them?

M: She switched them. She was very clever.

I: She switched them: Rudy and Lumumba.

G: Mr. Mignini, you agree that one part of that is pure invention. Who's to say the rest isn't also?

I: If part of the statement is false, how do we know that the rest...?

M: Because there are parts that are confirmed. Whe she speaks...when she speaks of the call to her mother, that call comes from the conversation she has with her mother, which was intercepted. She talks about it also, I think, with Filomena, and then we have the call.

I: She speaks of that call with her mother.

M: That is, it's not that one can lie...that is, one must also try to insert elements of truth, also something true in the story, otherwise,....in the story that someone tells to defend themselves, they try to insert elements.....they'll have to....they have to also take into account the evidence that exists, that we have, that is to say not everything is invented, not everything said is a lie, it... it...it gets analyzed and checked out and what she says about Lumumba can...can very well be switched with Rudy: she, at that moment, had to cover for Rudy, because Rudy had escaped, she didn't know if he would have accused them, if he would have kept quiet, if there would have been....if he hadn't been tracked down, she was okay. However, Rudy was tracked down...they had the genetic material, they had the DNA. And so she had to....there was that phone call, that message from Lumumba, which said...where she replied to him, "see you later", the police say: "What? What does "see you later" mean?" And then, aha, that's it! That is...

 

[LondonJohn]

Translation:

Thank you k! Now I can watch the tennis

The one thing that jumped out for me when I first did a quick translation in my head is that confirms that Mignini was a believer in the "substitute one black man for another" theory. Wouldn't that be....errr.......a little bit racist, Sig. Mignini?

 

[RoseMontague]

OK - give me an hour or so. I assume this Italian version has come from software that reads pdf files, since there are lots of spelling mistakes which look like they come from incorrect visual recognition.....

Likely, yes. This might help

 

[RoseMontague]

You guys are fantastic. Thank you.

It is a very interesting interview.

 

[Dan O.]

Do we get to know the context of where this comes from?

 

[RoseMontague]

Do we get to know the context of where this comes from?

Graham-Mignini "interview", sorry.

ETA: I am not certain what I have is complete and I don't have the audio but I will be posting this on my docstoc page when I have more information.

 

[Justinian2]

A prior poster said that this information isn't new. Another replied that it's been on the FOA site ever since the first trial.

After the first trial I would pick up on the data in FOA and try to discuss it. I was told that it was obviously prejudiced and be banned from the site for posting the truth. I was banned from five sites, I believe.

Now, as an earlier poster suggested, other people have confirmed the truth of the data in that site and the media has picked up on it as new information. Oh, well, better late than never.

Amanda is the anvil that wears all the hammers out. The hammers almost won, but the anvil prevailed. The anvil consisted of truth so it is made of harder stuff than Mignini fairy tales.

What takes some people so long to differentiate between authoritarian fairy tales and scientific truth?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a bloomin' mess

Sarah Scazzi update. Now Fifteen people being investigated. The one who confessed to the whole thing is free, the wife and daughter remain in jail, other family members accused of various crimes, witnesses and lawyers under investigation. What a cluster this is.

http://translate.google.com/transla...UQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGirn8X83t8CI3iHFCawRwz2B_VWQ

RoseMontague,

The dream business sounds as if the witness (florist?) was being coaxed into saying something then retracting it. Was he asked to imagine something? This case just gets stranger and stranger.

 

[lane99]

It's a low blow for anyone to impugn the motives of Miss Kercher's parent's. Their beliefs and actions are typical of those seen from other bereaved loved ones who've suffered similar tragedies.

One or two of the comments they've made might be regrettable. But I don't blame them anymore than I blame Amanda Knox for her false confession.

And to expect them to objectively assess the evidence in this case is asking a lot. There are huge psychological obstacles they would have to overcome before they would ever be able to do that.

It's possible the Kercher's view of this case may change, in time.

 

[Danceme]

I've pointed out before, I think that the DNA review raises serious questions about forensic evidence collection in other areas -

Are you also analyzing the effect on the DNA evidence attributed to Rudy or was his stuff perfectly done?

It's a low blow for anyone to impugn the motives of Miss Kercher's parent's. Their beliefs and actions are typical of those seen from other bereaved loved ones who've suffered similar tragedies.

One or two of the comments they've made might be regrettable. But I don't blame them anymore than I blame Amanda Knox for her false confession.

And to expect them to objectively assess the evidence in this case is asking a lot. There are huge psychological obstacles they would have to overcome before they would ever be able to do that.

It's possible the Kercher's view of this case may change, in time.

Nice post lane99.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

my take on the DNA evidence against Guede

Are you also analyzing the effect on the DNA evidence attributed to Rudy or was his stuff perfectly done?


Nice post lane99.

Danceme,

I don't know anyone who has seen the electropherograms involved in Rudi Guede's case; I certainly have not and would be disinclined to say too much until I had. However, one could toss all of the DNA evidence against him and still convict him on the basis of the handprint and shoeprints.

 

[Chris C]

Are you also analyzing the effect on the DNA evidence attributed to Rudy or was his stuff perfectly done?


Nice post lane99.

Actually, thanks to stefanoni, Guede will be able to appeal again. I have said this many times, If knox/sollecito walk, Guede could also walk. Remember the rape? According to the autopsy no signs of rape was found. Guede's defense will be able to appeal the rape conviction now because stefanoni fudged the results against Knox/Sollecito. They very likely could toss the sexual assault conviction against Guede on grounds of contamination. The hand print in blood and his open admittal to being there, will hurt his chances of winning an appeal against the murder.

 

[RWVBWL]

Does anyone have a link or pdf to rudy's letter disputing Alessi? I am curious if his hand writing matches previous samples, e.g. The german prison diary. It is very odd that he would have trouble reading his own handwriting.

= sd =

Hmmm, found them. I certainly do not claim to be a hand-writing expert, and acknowledge that people's hand-writing might change a bit over time. I also believe that "graphology" in terms of reading personalities is pretty much pseudo science, but there is certainly a legitimate science of handwriting analysis in forensics. In my lay opinion, these hand writing samples of Rudy look like they were written by entirely different people, there is no resemblance between the samples at all.
Sigh, I am still a noobie and unable to post links.

sample #1: While writing his diary in Koblenz prison (Germany), Rudy wrote with very little vertical slant in his cursive handwriting, and the overall text ramped off to the right of the page. Indeed quite a few of the characters were slanted to the left even. The ramping off, could have been due the the pages not being lined.
[Reference: PMF prison diary or in slightly higher resolution from Candace Dempsey's True Crime Blog, see the links on the right of the page.]

sample #2: Yet while writing his "rebuttal" of Mario Alessi from Viterbo prison (Italy), his handwriting was very intensely and consistently slanted to the right, and has a much more "proper" style to it.
[Reference: do a google search for these words: "Guede, la lettera a News Mediaset". I recommend saving the JPG file and then opening it and zooming it to view the]

Maybe prison does that to you, but I can't see any resemblance between the writing styles shown in samples #1 and #2.

To be more conclusive, another data point would be useful. Does anyone else know of any other writing samples of Rudy? What would be also interesting of course, is a hand-writing sample of Mignini.

Just a thought, and it all stems from Guede not wanting to read "his own letter" in court.

= sd =

Greetings SoulDonut,
I recall reading your post the other day, which was bypassed apparently when the recent DNA report was released soon afterwards.

I wish to bring this up for further discussion, if anyone cares to examine it.
Reading this link that Fine posted:
http://www.groundreport.com/World/Amanda-Knox-Appeal-a-Day-of-Irrelevance_2/2939846
made me wonder how a guy can not even read his own hand writing?

I know I can, even my field notes that I quickly jot down as I do research on shark activity here in Los Angeles. Others might have a problem reading my notes, but I can tell a 5 from an s and a 4 from a 9, no problemo...

So I find it just a little bit slightly strange that Rudy Guede can not even read his own "proper" style writing, as you put it, but Giuliano Mignini surely can.

I note that you can not post links yet,
can you do so by sending me a PM and I can post them for you?
Or how about typing them out and spelling dot com?
I am curious to see what you found out, and I bet others would be too...

Thanks, RW

 

[RWVBWL]

Actually, thanks to stefanoni, Guede will be able to appeal again. I have said this many times, If knox/sollecito walk, Guede could also walk. Remember the rape? According to the autopsy no signs of rape was found. Guede's defense will be able to appeal the rape conviction now because stefanoni fudged the results against Knox/Sollecito. They very likely could toss the sexual assault conviction against Guede on grounds of contamination. The hand print in blood and his open admittal to being there, will hurt his chances of winning an appeal against the murder.

Hi Chris C,
I agree. Rudy Guede could and should be able to appeal again if Dr. Stefanoni's work is tossed out. And yes, I still find it odd that she got permission to drive down from Rome, IIRC, to come work the crime scene.

Something else I found interesting a while back was reading a posting by Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock, -(before it was shut down for a bit), seemed to insinuate that he believed Rudy Gude was not involved in Miss Kercher's bloody murder. IIRC, he made mention in answer to a forum posting on his site that after Raffaele and Amanda were freed, he might discuss this much further in depth...

 

[Draca]

Hmmm, found them. I certainly do not claim to be a hand-writing expert, and acknowledge that people's hand-writing might change a bit over time. I also believe that "graphology" in terms of reading personalities is pretty much pseudo science, but there is certainly a legitimate science of handwriting analysis in forensics. In my lay opinion, these hand writing samples of Rudy look like they were written by entirely different people, there is no resemblance between the samples at all.

Sigh, I am still a noobie and unable to post links.

sample #1: While writing his diary in Koblenz prison (Germany), Rudy wrote with very little vertical slant in his cursive handwriting, and the overall text ramped off to the right of the page. Indeed quite a few of the characters were slanted to the left even. The ramping off, could have been due the the pages not being lined.
[Reference: PMF prison diary or in slightly higher resolution from Candace Dempsey's True Crime Blog, see the links on the right of the page.]

sample #2: Yet while writing his "rebuttal" of Mario Alessi from Viterbo prison (Italy), his handwriting was very intensely and consistently slanted to the right, and has a much more "proper" style to it.
[Reference: do a google search for these words: "Guede, la lettera a News Mediaset". I recommend saving the JPG file and then opening it and zooming it to view the]

Maybe prison does that to you, but I can't see any resemblance between the writing styles shown in samples #1 and #2.

To be more conclusive, another data point would be useful. Does anyone else know of any other writing samples of Rudy? What would be also interesting of course, is a hand-writing sample of Mignini.

Just a thought, and it all stems from Guede not wanting to read "his own letter" in court.

= sd =

Here are some links to the two letters:

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo476174.shtml

Guede's "German Diary":
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/RudysPrisonDiary.pdf


I agree that the handwriting doesn't match. Is there a reason the defense wouldn't point this out?

 

[Danceme]

No, the handwriting definitely doesn't match. I'm also curious why the defense didn't bring this up. Perhaps they have their suspicions but no proof yet as to whose handwriting it actually is.

 

[Danceme]

Actually, thanks to stefanoni, Guede will be able to appeal again. I have said this many times, If knox/sollecito walk, Guede could also walk. Remember the rape? According to the autopsy no signs of rape was found. Guede's defense will be able to appeal the rape conviction now because stefanoni fudged the results against Knox/Sollecito. They very likely could toss the sexual assault conviction against Guede on grounds of contamination. The hand print in blood and his open admittal to being there, will hurt his chances of winning an appeal against the murder.

Yes, there likely will be an appeal.

Hi Chris C,
I agree. Rudy Guede could and should be able to appeal again if Dr. Stefanoni's work is tossed out. And yes, I still find it odd that she got permission to drive down from Rome, IIRC, to come work the crime scene.

Something else I found interesting a while back was reading a posting by Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock, -(before it was shut down for a bit), seemed to insinuate that he believed Rudy Gude was not involved in Miss Kercher's bloody murder. IIRC, he made mention in answer to a forum posting on his site that after Raffaele and Amanda were freed, he might discuss this much further in depth...

I remember that too. It would be quite incredible if Rudy were telling the truth too and the murderer really is an unknown, neither of the three accused. I don't think it's very likely but an intriguing thought none the less.

 

[Draca]

Actually, thanks to stefanoni, Guede will be able to appeal again. I have said this many times, If knox/sollecito walk, Guede could also walk. Remember the rape? According to the autopsy no signs of rape was found. Guede's defense will be able to appeal the rape conviction now because stefanoni fudged the results against Knox/Sollecito. They very likely could toss the sexual assault conviction against Guede on grounds of contamination. The hand print in blood and his open admittal to being there, will hurt his chances of winning an appeal against the murder.

Hi Chris C,
I agree. Rudy Guede could and should be able to appeal again if Dr. Stefanoni's work is tossed out. And yes, I still find it odd that she got permission to drive down from Rome, IIRC, to come work the crime scene.

Something else I found interesting a while back was reading a posting by Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock, -(before it was shut down for a bit), seemed to insinuate that he believed Rudy Gude was not involved in Miss Kercher's bloody murder. IIRC, he made mention in answer to a forum posting on his site that after Raffaele and Amanda were freed, he might discuss this much further in depth...

I agree also. I think Chris's analysis is spot on.

The bedroom crime scene had been completely tossed and corrupted by the time they went back on Dec 18th. I'm not sure how the DNA found on the blue jacket and purse can stand. Both items had been moved from where originally taped. The blue jacket had been tossed into the laundry hamper of all things! If contamination is possible for the bra clasp, wouldn't it be the same for the other items?

Maybe halides1 can explain why it would still be accepted based on the amount of DNA or other reasons?

The DNA of Guede found on the vagina swab was tested by Stefanoni. How can we trust any of her work. If she was incompetent and shady in regards to the knife, bra clasp and luminol prints wouldn't she have done the same poor quality work on the vaginal swab?

The palm print, admitted shoe prints and admitted presense will probably hold his conviction in place, I hope.

 

[RWVBWL]

Here are some links to the two letters:

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo476174.shtml

Guede's "German Diary":
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/RudysPrisonDiary.pdf


I agree that the handwriting doesn't match. Is there a reason the defense wouldn't point this out?

Hi Draca,
Thanks for the links, of which I just had a look.
I too do not believe the handwriting matches Rudy Guede's earlier writing.
It is simply too much neater and clearer, in my simple opinion. Could Rudy have improved his handwriting skills in prison? Sure. But that still doesn't look like he wrote it, as SoulDonut 1st pointed out.

And this was the letter that Rudy Guede could not read in court the other day? But Giuliano Mignini could? Why?

Being a guy who spends many an hour sitting on a kayak looking for Great White Sharks to swim by me or even breach in the waters off Los Angeles, I definately feel that there's something fishy going on, still, in Perugia, Italy...

ETA - Thanks Draca for the linked copy of Rudy's diary above that you posted. It has an English translation too, ya!
Though I am mere feet away from the ocean, my mind is burnt out from staring at it continuosly. So I'm gonna take a long break and get inside Rudy's mind for a while! Thanks again!

Have a great rest of the day,
RW

 

[Danceme]

Does anyone know if any handwriting samples exist from Mignini by chance? It seems he had no trouble reading it? Did he hesitate or stumble over any of the words as if he was having trouble with the writing?

Was Rudy explicitly asked if he wrote it himself?