Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[komponisto]

Here's a translation of a French article about the effect the Amanda Knox case has had on Perugia.

The link doesn't work; in any event I'd be grateful for a link to the original. I don't think I've seen very many French articles on the case.

EDIT: I see Justinian provided it. Thanks!

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Here's a translation of a French article about the effect the Amanda Knox case has had on Perugia. According to this, which is all subjective, there's been a negative effect on the economy, notably in the number of tourists and American and English students attending the Foreign school. The Perugians are annoyed and think they've been unjustly punished, however I wonder just how many people quoted in this piece were up at midnight to applaud the verdict?

Thus while tourism for Italy may not be down if one takes economic factors into consideration, this is an indication that perhaps people are choosing other destinations than Perugia. I cannot say I'd be all that enthused about going to Perugia, however I wouldn't hold that against Florence, Milan, Turin or Rome. I would learn a few words of Italian first, an absolute necessity in my mind when dealing with the police in Italy:

'Stai mentendo, voglio un avvocato!'

(Being as I can still kinda read French I'd like to say I translated this for you all, but that would be really stupid and a complete waste of time as google translate does just fine with French. All I did was the finishing touches)

Interesting I wonder if the local economy in Perugia is allegedly suffering because students\tourists are avoiding it because of the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher or because of the judicial process that followed, I tend to conclude it is the former.

 

[Kaosium]

Now that the DNA "evidence" on the knife and bra-clasp have been shown to be fictitious, what does that say about "conspiracy theory" theories? There seems to have been a real sea-change in the discussion since the Conti/Vecchiotti report, and one notable theme now missing is LK's oft-repeated claim that "in order for the pair to be innocent, there would have to be a vast conspiracy of police and judges to hide the truth".

Yeah, what happened to them? One day we were besieged by the Beavis and Butthead conspiracy with Larry, Curly and Moe dancing attendant, and the next day the DNA report comes out and crickets chirp! What's odd is that Lionking for one had already expressed reservations about the DNA evidence, so that shouldn't have come as a big surprise, but I guess the depth and scope of the depravity hasn't been spun away quite yet by the lynch mob been easy to deal with.

Well, there is no "vast" conspiracy, but something resembling a small one. It's now beyond doubt that Stefanoni misrepresented her results and attempted to conceal the data, and that cannot have happened without the knowledge of others in her department, nor did it without the cooperation of judge Massei.

Exactly. Now I need to go digging through Harry Rag's offal to find out just how many 'experts' appointed by the Massei Court had 'validated' Stefanoni's work. We know her boss thought his lab did a fine job, who else made those little lists of Harry's? Would someone like to spare me the time in the sewer if they remember just all who must have approved of Stefanoni's DNA work?

One of the frustrating things about any discussion of this kind is the way that some will cry "Conspiracy Theory!" at any suggestion that we are not being told the whole truth by officialdom. Of course, unfounded CT's exist (the accusation of a publicity campaign orchestrated and paid-for by FOAK, is one)

I can't help but wonder if some of those college kids who set up FOA don't privately get a thrill reading PMF; seeing the bunnies and kittens tremble in fear at the very name of that shadowy network of evildoers and their vast coercive faculty stretching across the globe! I betcha the one with the lip-ring does.

- but then so do government cover-ups. Examples are of course the innumerable miscarriages of justice where there has been official resistance to any reexamination, but also for example the bogus claims about the overwhelming Soviet military threat from 1950 to 1989, the Iraq WMD deception, and the continuing "war on drugs" - who believes that we are being told the whole truth about the "drug threat"?

I recall attending a...symposium...regarding the capacity of Soviet seapower in the late Eighties. At the time the goal of the USN was a 600 ship fleet, which would have compared to the 1000 or so estimated of the Soviet navy. However we also learned the Soviets had not displayed the seamanship or technical capacity for extensive refueling at sea operations, thus could not cross the Pacific in force with a surface fleet.

As it may occur to you, that meant they couldn't have pulled off a Pearl Harbor, which the Japanese had managed almost fifty years prior. Mind you that was an awesome military achievement, as was turning around and three days later putting the smackdown on the PI as well, but that was 1941!

Being as I knew it had been the frustrated goal of Czars and Commissars since time immemorial to secure a warm-water port for the fleet of all the Russias, and that the Soviets were still working on mastering the 'aircraft carrier,' I couldn't help but wonder who felt threatened by this massive collection of rusty rowboats when they weren't iced in six months out of the year?

 

[platonov]

Interesting I wonder if the local economy in Perugia is allegedly suffering because students\tourists are avoiding it because of the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher or because of the judicial process that followed, I tend to conclude it is the former.

You are possibly correct but this is all OT speculation in any case.

Its presence on this thread is probably just a form of 'wish fulfillment'/ 'revenge fantasy' deriving from the whole 'Let's boycott them Italians for locking up a pretty white american chick' which seems to be a feature of the broader xenophobic approach to this case.

ETA See below

 

[Diocletus]

Here's a translation of a French article about the effect the Amanda Knox case has had on Perugia.

Oh, the irony: "The American and British press punished Perugia for a crime she did not commit."

Somebody might want to explain to this guy, that yes, Perugia did commit a grave crime. It framed two innocent people who have been in jail for four years. There are plenty of other wonderful places to visit in Italy outside of Perugia, and apparently that is what many Brits and Americans have already decided.

You will now see Italy start to turn this into a Perugia problem. And Perugia will continue to pay.

 

[Diocletus]

Interesting I wonder if the local economy in Perugia is allegedly suffering because students\tourists are avoiding it because of the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher or because of the judicial process that followed, I tend to conclude it is the former.

Yeah, that might be true for the Brits. They're afraid that all the sex-crazed American coeds might whack them in the name of satanism or wiccanism or wikiism or something. Americans would be staying away for a different reasons (hint: it's not because there are no Brits there).

 

[Kaosium]

How else to explain why AK, despite being exposed to it for 4 years, did accuse an innocent man PL and yet now 3 years later refuses to accuse someone (RG) that everyone accepts is guilty.

The answer might be that she never did accuse Patrick Lumumba, but even feels guilty for being used by the police in that capacity. That could be because she's actually a really nice person. That's what the evidence actually suggests when the lies have been boiled away.

Read those statements, the most damning thing she says directly is that's she's afraid of him, now why would she be afraid of him, Platonov? She wasn't before she went into that police station...

 

[Kaosium]

Interesting I wonder if the local economy in Perugia is allegedly suffering because students\tourists are avoiding it because of the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher or because of the judicial process that followed, I tend to conclude it is the former.

The article suggests both, actually.

 

[platonov]

The answer might be that she never did accuse Patrick Lumumba, but even feels guilty for being used by the police in that capacity. That could be because she's actually a really nice person. That's what the evidence actually suggests when the lies have been boiled away.

Read those statements, the most damning thing she says directly is that's she's afraid of him, now why would she be afraid of him, Platonov? She wasn't before she went into that police station...

Really ?? The murder accusation was just an aside.

Over exposure to the 'New Testament' [and this case] can make people say crazy things apparently. We have seen some examples even closer to home

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Yeah, that might be true for the Brits. They're afraid that all the sex-crazed American coeds might whack them in the name of satanism or wiccanism or wikiism or something. Americans would be staying away for a different reasons (hint: it's not because there are no Brits there).

Well my personal experience is fortunately very different to the Kercher family; my daughter spent her year abroad in Dakar, Senegal in 2008 where she met 2 American students they became inseparable and their friendship continues today. My daughter has visited her friends and they have spent time here as well, because of their friendship they arranged to work in France this past year and although in different regions they took turns visiting each other as schedules would allow, spending thanksgiving and other holidays together etc; they have forged lifelong friendships through their studying abroad in Dakar.

I think any parent regardless of which side of the “pond” they live would be concerned with a brutal senseless murder of a student; of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

[Kaosium]

Really ?? The murder accusation was just an aside.

Show me where she accuses anyone of murder.

Over exposure to the 'New Testament' [and this case] can make people say crazy things apparently. We have seen some examples even closer to home

Platonov, did you know the Communist Manifesto is a conspiracy theory? It says so on the very first page!

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The article suggests both, actually.

That maybe so, I guess I could of missed Meredith's name being mentioned. Meredith name does appear at the end of the quote, I guess I should be thankful she was mentioned at all.

 

[platonov]

Back to Nov 5th

Show me where she accuses anyone of murder.

...............

Earlier (previous page) when you and LJ finally accepted that the cops had good reason to arrest RS and AK I thought -- Hallelujah , That's 'Good News' and imagined I could hear trumpets in the distance.

Turns out they weren't trumpets but bassoons !

 

[RoseMontague]

Well my personal experience is fortunately very different to the Kercher family; my daughter spent her year abroad in Dakar, Senegal in 2008 where she met 2 American students they became inseparable and their friendship continues today. My daughter has visited her friends and they have spent time here as well, because of their friendship they arranged to work in France this past year and although in different regions they took turns visiting each other as schedules would allow, spending thanksgiving and other holidays together etc; they have forged lifelong friendships through their studying abroad in Dakar.

I think any parent regardless of which side of the “pond” they live would be concerned with a brutal senseless murder of a student; of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

Frank also mentions the arrest of some Libyan students for what some comments I have seen on various blogs and news articles amounts to having a different political opinion vs the Mignini claim of planning terrorism attacks.

Yummi provided some information a few weeks ago that tourism in Italy as a whole had not decreased in the wake of the Perugian railroad project. That the local perception is decidedly different is interesting.

 

[Rolfe]

There is a white version …

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?style=6&f=1&t=375&view=unread#unread

Thanks. Even though it's blue, it's a LOT better.

Lord knows they've tried, Rolfe, but we haven't let them. We practice sophistry and we're impolite. They are powerless against our poor manners.

Yes, by all means, join, Rolfe. Just don't speak.

No, I won't join. My interest here is by way of someone who is an instrumentalist singing in the choir one afternoon just for amusement and relaxation. I'm not going to be taking singing lessons for the purpose.

I'm just passing through, as it were. I'm open to persuasion by either side of the case, but I'm not going to make it my life's work.

It's not exactly challenging or provocative to argue against bigfoot, flat earth, 911 conspiracies or homeopathy. This case, however, requires one to swim against the stream somewhat (as others have pointed out, in most instances the rational view is the one held by the "authority" side of the argument - think of 911, moon landings, JFK, etc as examples). It also requires a good amount of independent research and structured, logical thinking. I think that some people are good at that sort of thing. And others are not.

Fiona stated that she was convinced the Lockerbie bombing conviction was a miscarriage of justice, but not the Perugia murder one. The "official version" objection applies in both cases. It's possible that the deficiencies in the Lockerbie evidence are SO egregious this simply overcame that for her.

Rolfe.

 

[Diocletus]

Well my personal experience is fortunately very different to the Kercher family; my daughter spent her year abroad in Dakar, Senegal in 2008 where she met 2 American students they became inseparable and their friendship continues today. My daughter has visited her friends and they have spent time here as well, because of their friendship they arranged to work in France this past year and although in different regions they took turns visiting each other as schedules would allow, spending thanksgiving and other holidays together etc; they have forged lifelong friendships through their studying abroad in Dakar.

I think any parent regardless of which side of the “pond” they live would be concerned with a brutal senseless murder of a student; of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

Very good. That's just the way study abroad is supposed to work. What's not supposed to happen is your roommate gates raped and murdered, the incompetent cops, paranoid prosecutor and stupid judge wrongly pin the crime on you, and you end up spending all of your holidays for the next four years in jail. That's a study abroad fail.

 

[RoseMontague]

The Expert report has changed my opinion on this case. For anyone who cares feel free to call me a Conspiracy Theorist. In my opinion, the report clearly shows Stefanoni attempted to conceal and obfuscate the truth in order to support a conviction based on her reported results. I do not believe this can be explained by incompetence, poor documentation, or simple confirmation bias.

 

[Kaosium]

That maybe so, I guess I could of missed Meredith's name being mentioned. Meredith name does appear at the end of the quote, I guess I should be thankful she was mentioned at all.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Sometimes it seems like you want to berate those who fail to mention Meredith when discussing the Amanda Knox case. Some might think that poor girl wouldn't want to be associated overmuch with the travesty inflicted upon Amanda, Raffaele, both families, their lawyers and journalists. They might also think that is just as valid and even more respectful position than employing her image and memory in an attempt to prejudice the chance for justice and a fulfilling life for all the other victims associated with the murder committed by Rudy Guede.

I'm not talking about you, Coulsdon, but those whose method demands that Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and everyone else must suffer if they dared defy that demented freak who chose to invent bizarre pornographic fantasies of her death out of whole cloth and who refuse to this day to accept even the possibility she might be innocent. Those who come up with any lie necessary to maintain that there is still a reasonable chance Amanda and Raffaele were involved, no matter how absurd. Do you honestly believe that is in any way respectful to her memory?

Ask yourself were the positions reversed, and it so happened that Amanda came home to get a mop when Rudy Guede was there and then Meredith returned shortly after he left. Somehow Meredith catches the ire of Mignini, who proposes that Meredith and the boyfriend with the hemp plants conspired with Rudy to kill Amanda in some sort of sick game he simply invented just like this one. Which ones involved in this debate do you suppose would be using the image and memory of Amanda Knox and smearing Meredith wholesale with merciless abandon employing disgusting exaggerations of character flaws they perceived and utterly unwilling to even entertain the possibility the object of their hatred could be innocent?

 

[RoseMontague]

Exactly. Now I need to go digging through Harry Rag's offal to find out just how many 'experts' appointed by the Massei Court had 'validated' Stefanoni's work. We know her boss thought his lab did a fine job, who else made those little lists of Harry's? Would someone like to spare me the time in the sewer if they remember just all who must have approved of Stefanoni's DNA work?

Finding Machine/Harry Rag quotes is easy because she uses the same phrases over and over. On this one she uses This is ominous for Knox and Sollecito almost every time.

 

[LondonJohn]

Earlier (previous page) when you and LJ finally accepted that the cops had good reason to arrest RS and AK I thought -- Hallelujah , That's 'Good News' and imagined I could hear trumpets in the distance.

Turns out they weren't trumpets but bassoons !

Oooh I know what you've done here! You've seen Kaosium and I propose that the police/prosecutor had some basis for believing Knox/Sollecito were involved, and dishonestly misrepresented that as "good reason to arrest" Knox/Sollecito. Very well done!

PS: I bet if there was a search for the four words most frequently found in the same order in this thread, they would likely be these: "Last edited by platonov" Is (s)he incapable of ever constructing his/her "arguments" properly first time....?