Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Rolfe said:
It's still a bit of a shocker that a forensic lab could be so wrong, and a forensic scientist stand up and defend such bad procedure in court.

The danger of forensic scientists who work on police cases starting to see themselves as part of the prosecution team instead of impartial seekers after truth is well-recognised. Somebody needs to tell the Italian criminal justice system about this phenomenon.

Rolfe.
Click to expand...


Rolfe,

Great post. After viewing video coverage of the forensic teams work it was no longer a shock that this evidence wasn't correct.

One thing to remember before watching the bra clasp videos is that the forensic team did not FORGET or LOSE the bra clasp. It was purposefully left behind - along with half of the clothes Meredith Kercher was wearing when attacked. They also did not collect a jacket pulled off of her, shoes with laces still tied, socks with blood on the cuffs that were likely pulled off. Also a purse with blood near the zipper. All of these were left until 6 weeks later - Nov 2 until Dec 18th. The crime scene at that point had been absolutely TOSSED. None of the items were where they were originally video taped.

Another thing to be aware of is the forensic team went back on Dec 18th because they had just lost ALL of the physical evidence they had holding Raffaele. A Sollecito cousin proved by counting the rings in the bloody shoe prints that they were not his shoes. The forensic team went back to the cottage and - here is a real shocker - were able to find Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp. Wasn't that lucky? Otherwise they may have had to let a killer go......


Amanda Knox - "Unassailable Evidence" - Bra Clasp discovery crime scene video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

Amanda Knox - 47 Days is a Long Time - The Bra Clasp Discovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLE4s3jXTVU

Forensic Expert Patrizia Stefanoni Gift Wraps A Mop - Amanda Knox Case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=conjBUiEE9I

Sloppy Evidence Collection Procedures and Contamination
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/contamination.html


Photo of everything piled on bed
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater

The bra clasp was 'discovered' under this rug
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater

Look at these gloves! They used them to keep their hands clean not the evidence. And look how they just threw them on the floor!
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater
 
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Ooh, there's a great new idiot rationalisation! It goes along the following lines:

The independent DNA report says (according to the rationalisation) that Stefanoni didn't follow the international standards and protocols to the letter, and that in order to present cast-iron evidence in court, forensic scientists have to ensure that every protocol/procedure is rigorously followed. Therefore (according to the rationalisation) Stefanoni's work might be essentially fine, but the "academic investigators who have no real experience in the real world" are pedantically insisting that every "t" must be crossed and every "i" dotted in order to satisfy their threshold of acceptability. For example: so what if Stefanoni didn't write a certain value down - it doesn't mean that her results are incorrect.

Now....... this argument is as wrong as it is idiotic. Anyone who has any training in science can read any part of the report that deals with Stefanoni's work (or the work of those who collected and stored the evidence) and understand just how many fundamental errors were made. This is not a question of Stefanoni (or the others) simply neglecting to tick the right administrative boxes. This is root and branch incompetence (at best) in the way the evidence was collected, stored, tested and interpreted.

Oh, and it also clearly confirms just how hopelessly unscientific (and, incidentally, how poor a thinker) is the erstwhile member of this parish who left with such a flourish some months ago. Anyone who's of the opinion that this poster was an arguer of ferocious intellect and wisdom should peruse a certain pro-guilt forum for an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Interesting, there is only one poster (thoughful) who has not only made a good translation of large swathes of the report, but also seems unafraid to hold the most critical parts up to the light. But even she seems somewhat determined to try to search for ways to mitigate the utter disaster that this report presents to Stefanoni, her bosses, the police in general, and the prosecution. Maybe she's terrified of alienation from her online home......
 
Draca said:
Rolfe,

Great post. After viewing video coverage of the forensic teams work it was no longer a shock that this evidence wasn't correct.

One thing to remember before watching the bra clasp videos is that the forensic team did not FORGET or LOSE the bra clasp. It was purposefully left behind - along with half of the clothes Meredith Kercher was wearing when attacked. They also did not collect a jacket pulled off of her, shoes with laces still tied, socks with blood on the cuffs that were likely pulled off. Also a purse with blood near the zipper. All of these were left until 6 weeks later - Nov 2 until Dec 18th. The crime scene at that point had been absolutely TOSSED. None of the items were wear they were originally video taped.

Amanda Knox - "Unassailable Evidence" - Bra Clasp discovery crime scene video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

Amanda Knox - 47 Days is a Long Time - The Bra Clasp Discovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLE4s3jXTVU

Forensic Expert Patrizia Stefanoni Gift Wraps A Mop - Amanda Knox Case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=conjBUiEE9I

Sloppy Evidence Collection Procedures and Contamination
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/contamination.html


Photo of everything piled on bed
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater

The bra clasp was 'discovered' under this rug
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater

Look at these gloves! They used them to cleap their hands clean not the evidence. And look how they just threw them on the floor!
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater
Click to expand...


And as I said earlier, I think that Massei needs to come under some pretty intense scrutiny amidst all this. He saw these crime scene videos. Yet he apparently could see nothing untoward going on - even when it was screamingly obvious that the "crime scene investigators" virtually didn't know what they were doing.

One viewing of any of the video you've pointed out above - the bra clasp collection, the swabbing in the small bathroom, the gift wrapping of the mop, the visibly dirty gloves, the unchanged booties, the hideous manhandling of Meredith's clothing (including blood-soaked clothing that she was weraing when murdered!) - should have alerted the presiding judge to raise huge red flags over the forensic science in this case. Instead, Massei seemingly waved it all straight through, buying Mignini's line that the forensics team in this case were among the very best in the world.
 
NEWSFLASH!!!

This just in: Expert report rejecting DNA evidence will be read word-for-word directly into the court record by Hon. Giancarlo Massei. No cross-examination will be permitted!!!

Defense to play cartoon of Stefanoni evidence collection procedures!

Maresca to appeal to European Court of Human Rights on grounds that he might not get paid!
 
One other small point about the bra clasp. The report would appear to put to bed once and for all the lie put about (by some pro-guilt idiots) that Knox's DNA was on the bra clasp, and that this fact caused massive ructions within her defence team. this is, of course, quite apart from the fact that if Knox's DNA (or what Stefanoni in her "world-class" wisdom interpreted as Knox's DNA) had indeed been found on the bra clasp, the prosecutors would have been shouting very loudly about it in the first trial.
 
LondonJohn said:
One other small point about the bra clasp. The report would appear to put to bed once and for all the lie put about (by some pro-guilt idiots) that Knox's DNA was on the bra clasp, and that this fact caused massive ructions within her defence team. this is, of course, quite apart from the fact that if Knox's DNA (or what Stefanoni in her "world-class" wisdom interpreted as Knox's DNA) had indeed been found on the bra clasp, the prosecutors would have been shouting very loudly about it in the first trial.
Click to expand...


I Forgot about that guilterism !!! The DNA report put an end to that one!
 
Diocletus said:
NEWSFLASH!!!

This just in: Expert report rejecting DNA evidence will be read word-for-word directly into the court record by Hon. Giancarlo Massei. No cross-examination will be permitted!!!

Defense to play cartoon of Stefanoni evidence collection procedures!

Maresca to appeal to European Court of Human Rights on grounds that he might not get paid!
Click to expand...


LOL! The cartoons are ready to go. You didn't think she really gift wrapped a mop did you? :D

So will Maresca get zero pay if they are released, or will the Kerchers then be stuck with a bill?
 
Draca said:
Rolfe,

Great post. After viewing video coverage of the forensic teams work it was no longer a shock that this evidence wasn't correct.

One thing to remember before watching the bra clasp videos is that the forensic team did not FORGET or LOSE the bra clasp. It was purposefully left behind - along with half of the clothes Meredith Kercher was wearing when attacked. They also did not collect a jacket pulled off of her, shoes with laces still tied, socks with blood on the cuffs that were likely pulled off. Also a purse with blood near the zipper. All of these were left until 6 weeks later - Nov 2 until Dec 18th. The crime scene at that point had been absolutely TOSSED. None of the items were where they were originally video taped.

* * *
Click to expand...
________________

Draca,

Are you sure about this? One of the forensic experts thought that Meredith had undressed---or mostly so---prior to being attacked, which would suggest that her shoe laces were untied when discovered the next day.

///
 
Diocletus said:
NEWSFLASH!!!

This just in: Expert report rejecting DNA evidence will be read word-for-word directly into the court record by Hon. Giancarlo Massei. No cross-examination will be permitted!!!

Defense to play cartoon of Stefanoni evidence collection procedures!

Maresca to appeal to European Court of Human Rights on grounds that he might not get paid!
Click to expand...

What?
Massei will read the report in the court? Why is that?

And also - no cross examination?! I mean, this is really over. Freedom.

What's the purpose of the cartoon though? Wouldn't it be better if they would just show how Stefanoni collected the items? The mop video is truly hilarious.
 
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Draca said:
LOL! The cartoons are ready to go. You didn't think she really gift wrapped a mop did you? :D

So will Maresca get zero pay if they are released, or will the Kerchers then be stuck with a bill?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'm not sure how it works over there and what his deal is. In the US, a lawyer who represents a family suing for injury (loss of a family member) is usually paid on a contingent basis, meaning that he gets a portion of any recovery. No recovery, no fee.

In the UK, I believe they follow a loser pays model. I suppose the application of this would be that the Kerchers would have to pay the defendants' legal fees if the defendants prevail. Now that would be something.

I don't believe, though, that either the US or the UK would allow the Kerchers to actively participate in the trial of the criminal charges, so I'm not sure how that might effect the dynamic. It seems to me that they are likely paying Maresca an hourly fee for this service, so maybe he is getting paid something now.
 
Man those shoes will never be the same again and Kansas is still a long way off.


Here's a Q and a minor mea culpa of sorts.

It seems I [and others :) ] may have read too much here into the summary regarding the 'erroneous interpretation'

Does this report say that RS' DNA is not on the bra clasp - or does it compare quantitatively his profile with the 'noise' / contamination.

From looking at the incomplete PMF translations it would appear not ?
 
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Fine said:
________________

Draca,

Are you sure about this? One of the forensic experts thought that Meredith had undressed---or mostly so---prior to being attacked, which would suggest that her shoe laces were untied when discovered the next day.

///
Click to expand...

It appears from photos that one shoe had laces untied and one shoe had laces tied.
 
The technicians who examined the computer hard drives were as bad or maybe even worse than Stefanoni,I bet if their work was independently examined it would not fair any better,whoever examined the autopsy and indicated a time of death of 11-30 or later were working to the same standers,I expect Stefanoni's career is now irreversibly damaged,but there are many others who contributed to this disaster some of them must now be hoping that Hellmann would but an end to this miscarriage of justice without putting their part in creating it under the microscope
 
Fine said:
________________

Draca,

Are you sure about this? One of the forensic experts thought that Meredith had undressed---or mostly so---prior to being attacked, which would suggest that her shoe laces were untied when discovered the next day.

///
Click to expand...


Yes, One was tied, one not.
From their location I would say they came off in the struggle or were removed.

Here's the photo:
http://www.facebook.com/editphoto.p...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater

To put the location in context:
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater


On Dec 18th they are seen in the pile of shoes by the bed.
 
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Fine said:
________________

Draca,

Are you sure about this? One of the forensic experts thought that Meredith had undressed---or mostly so---prior to being attacked, which would suggest that her shoe laces were untied when discovered the next day.

///
Click to expand...

The evidence shows that Meredith was fully clothed when the attack began. She was still wearing her Adidas zipper jacket when the attack occurred.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry8.html
 
platonov said:
Man those shoes will never be the same again and Kansas is still a long way off.


Here's a Q and a minor mea culpa of sorts.

It seems I [and others :) ] may have read too much here into the summary regarding the 'erroneous interpretation'

Does this report say that RS' DNA is not on the bra clasp - or does it compare quantitatively his profile with the 'noise' / contamination.

From looking at the incomplete PMF translations it would appear not ?
Click to expand...


I don't suppose anyone could translate this while you're at it? What does this post actually mean?

Rolfe.
 
platonov said:
Man those shoes will never be the same again and Kansas is still a long way off.


Here's a Q and a minor mea culpa of sorts.

It seems I [and others :) ] may have read too much here into the summary regarding the 'erroneous interpretation'

Does this report say that RS' DNA is not on the bra clasp - or does it compare quantitatively his profile with the 'noise' / contamination.

From looking at the incomplete PMF translations it would appear not ?
Click to expand...


The independent report essentially states the following about the bra clasp: there was lots of Meredith's DNA present, but also a small amount of other DNA which was a mixture of various other people. One of the y-haplotypes found matched that of Sollecito (but that's not a specific match for Sollecito). The report found that Stefanoni was incorrect and erroneous to conclude that only Meredith's and Sollecito's DNA was on the clasp. It concludes that only Meredith's DNA can be positively identified. The other DNA on the bra clasp is an unidentifiable mixture of several profiles.

So the report cannot say that Sollecito's DNA definitively was not on the bra clasp. What it can (and does) say is that there is no basis to assert that Sollecito's DNA was on the bra clasp.

(To use an analogy, there's no evidence that I definitely was not drinking a glass of water at 2.36pm this afternoon, but there's no evidence that I was drinking a glass of water at that time. As such, nobody could ever present evidence in court that I was drinking a glass of water at that time.)
 
Huge thanks to Komponisto for the translations provided. I'd like to shout thanks to thoughtful, she was always of the more intellectually honest and inquiring mind on the "other side", often getting into troubles with the rest of the "bunnies" because of that.

Diocletus, LOL, you caught snook1 in your joke :)
 
Katody Matrass said:
Huge thanks to Komponisto for the translations provided. I'd like to shout thanks to thoughtful, she was always of the more intellectually honest and inquiring mind on the "other side", often getting into troubles with the rest of the "bunnies" because of that.

Diocletus, LOL, you caught snook1 in your joke :)
Click to expand...

Seriously?

I was getting so excited about Diocletus' news that it didn't even bother me that much that Massei would be reading the report! LOL.

I was thinking more about the cross examination.:D
 
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