Gage: Hell No I Ain't Reading Mackey's White Paper

At certain points over time (that time being a maximum of 102 minutes) and in varying locations. The dominant visual in the extensive and readily available video and photographic evidence is of massive volumes of smoke coming out of the towers, not flames. This also gets extremely tedious to address every single time, especially when any idiot can view the videos.

And any idiot might have the brains to realise that the fires were within the building and only visible at the fringes and through windows, whereas smoke was free to exit the building and drift up and away.

You, however, seem to lack the wit to understand this and so are strangely impressed with the volume of smoke.

Why do Truthers seem to believe that they have to be able to see something before it can exist? Do you, ergo, really believe that the only flames were the ones caught on film?
 
It is not a logical fallacy to state that the official explanation does not explain the events credibly, and that it's more likely that some kind of other method, still not completely clear, was used to bring the buildings down.

It's also not a logical fallacy to state that the moon is made of green cheese. It's just wrong.
 
it may not have lasted as long as, say, One Meridian Plaza, but it went through a larger fuel load in far less time. That indicates to me that it was more intense (willing to be corrected by that by Tri or anyone else here who could speak to that), which argues against any minimization of the WTC fires.

Interesting point...somewhat analagous to giant stars that burn through their fuel in a fraction of the time it takes smaller stars to do so, followed by a far more violent end.
 
Interesting point...somewhat analagous to giant stars that burn through their fuel in a fraction of the time it takes smaller stars to do so, followed by a far more violent end.

Yeah. That's mostly what I was getting at.

I do need to be real careful how far I take that analysis, though. After all, I'm only making broad assessments on size, and that ignores a lot of things. The most accurate measure of fire sizes for comparison's sake, I think, would be one comparing fuel rate, total fuel burnt, total amount of work done by the fires alone (excluding gravity from the scenario, since the exercise here is simply to compare the size of the fires), etc. But that's simply not possible here without some serious digging and work. Plus, things like fuel load would be nothing more than estimates anyway; we could envelope the reasonable high and low figures, but there would still be some wiggle room in the final answer.

That's why I'm limiting myself to area combusted. It's not ideal, but it's the easiest to determine without having to introduce ambiguity via assumptions. Since the areas combusted have so far been only fractions the size of either of the main towers fires, there's been no need to get any more specific anyway. It's a reasonable assumption that any differences in fuel load between different buildings would be minimal compared to the differences in sizes of the WTC fires and the rest of them (the only exception being Broadgate Phase 8, which wasn't finished and therefore had no office contents and only construction items available to burn).

Well, anyway... I'll work through a couple of more of the "No collapse" examples just for the intellectual exercise. But so far I think the point is made: This was a reach of an argument, nothing more than BS and bluff. Ergo didn't appear to actually read what he linked, and even if he did, he definitely didn't understand it. But on a broader note, I'm continually disappointed that truthers feel the need to minimize - indeed, belittle - the magnitude of the tower fires in order to push their fantasies. It's ridiculous. The very doc linked above came out and stated that the WTC events were "... the dominant fire and collapse events of this survey". And it put them right up there with the largest fires they could find. This is supposed to support the claim that the fires weren't large? Seriously?? So far, they've dwarfed all the others. Yet, the doc was presented as if it proved the point that it's actually refuting.

That's truther logic. And that's also why I always say: Don't trust a conspiracy fantasist's word for what a piece of evidence represents. Look at that evidence, preferrably in its original form. Nearly every time, you'll find that it's been misrepresented. This here is a perfect example of that.
 
Hey, that's me! I don't recall you sending me any critiques of my work. Let me know when you have that ready.

Gravy sighting! Gravy sighting!

I was about to post, "Say, who was that masked man?"


I love the New Improved TrutherTM fixation with Ryan and Mark. Their body of work is from several years ago, and neither devotes any significant time to debunking at present. Yet the "movement" is still trying to pick holes in their debunkings as though doing so would make all their own wasted years worthwhile by rolling back the clock.

Guys, the first wave of Truthification took the thinking man by shock. It was like Pearl Harbor of the Mind. No one could actually believe that anyone seriously thought the crap that your leading lights were espousing. It took a mere couple of months, though, for people to start picking holes in the arguments, holes that got so huge that you could fly a 767 through them, ultimately.

By the time that Gravy tagged in (I think I'll go with the pro wrestling metaphor) a couple of his partners and went on to "a real life" (you could look it up), your movement was moribund. Ryan just put the final couple of nails in the coffin (or stake through its chest). You're now the walking dead - zombies of a movement that in another decade will have had as much impact on the world as the groundswell of people who wanted to put panties on cows.
 
Ok, MGM Grand Hotel Fire, 1980.

Sources:
Description from first link:
"Fire damage other than smoke damage at the MGM Hotel was almost entirely limited to the Casino level and second floor office area. There was minor flame damage in one or two guest roooms on the fifth floor and heat and smoke damage on upper floors, but the major damage by fire was in the Main Casino, the lobby areas at the main and Flamingo Road entrances, the hotel registration area, and the west end of the Hall of Flame. The Deli, the Orleans Coffee House, Cafe Gigi, the Parisian Bar, Cub Bar, gift shop and other areas at the top of the escalator, including the Casino level elevators and elevator lobby, were all severely damaged by fire. The second floor above the east end of the Casino received some fire damage and structural damage.

Pictures from both above linked reports:
MGMPerspectiveView.jpg


MGMfloorplan-1.jpg


MGM casino level: 175 sq. ft. x 480 sq. ft. = 84,000 sq. ft.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the office space above the casino was equal in area to the casino itself. That gives you 168,000 sq. ft. That's actually an over estimate, because a side cutaway view doesn't show all that space being actually used; it's marked as presumably empty (or available for machinery only) "interstitial" space:

MGMWestWingView.jpg


Moving on: For arguments sake, let's eyeball off of the second image and add up the food/cafe areas and the lobby as being half the size of the casino floor; that gives you 42,000. Taking those very rough, back-of-envelope figures, you end up with a fire that covered 210,000 sq. ft.

That's a whopper of a fire all right. But it's still smaller in area than the South Tower one, even smaller still than the North Tower's inferno. Even if I'm off and the fire ends up having been larger than my figures, the Twin Tower infernos were on a par with them. This example from that link also establishes that the Twin Tower fires were on a par with some of the largest recorded ones. And again, this works against the attempt to minimize the WTC fires.
 
Andraus Building:
http://www.cookeonfire.com/pdfs/Andraus pdf.pdf

31 floors, all of them went up in flames.

Building dimensions: 23m by 48m. This gives us roughly 75.5 by 157.5 feet, 11,883 sq. feet.

Multiply that floor area by the 31 storeys: 368,384 sq. ft.

This is larger than the North Tower fire (320,000 sq. ft.). But would you say, as the truther insinuated by pointing at the NIST Historical Building Fires report, that the Andraus "dwarfs" the WTC ones? Note that I've been only comparing these historical ones against the individual building's fire-floor area, and not adding both towers up. Nor have I even brought WTC 7 into the discussion. And yet, the North Tower's fire by itself is close in size, if you measure things by floor area.

Bigger, yes. But it does not "dwarf" either tower's conflageration.

ETA: I just realized something - I conflated the exterior dimensions with interior floor area. I don't know what the interior floor space is, but it must be smaller than the figure I gave above. That doesn't change the answer in any significant way, though: The fire is comparable to the North Tower's one in terms of floor area. The difference is a relative quibble; they're both on the order of 300,000 to 360,000 sq. ft. One does not dwarf the other.
 
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Last comparison:

Joelma Building, Brazil, 1974:

Ha! This one was directly compared to the Twin Towers in this forum:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=177772

Anyway... I can't find any dimensions on the Joelma Building, so I can't guesstimate floor area. If this one ends up being larger, then fine, I'll concede it, but let's recall that the original claim is that the Tower fires were "dwarfed". Just how big does this building have to be before its fire "dwarfs" the Twin Tower ones?

If anyone else finds some info for floor area, feel free to post it. I've taken this as far as I want to take it, and my point is made: The source offered to "prove" that the Twin Tower fires were "dwarfed" by those others does the opposite: It holds up the WTC fires as some of the largest in history, at least in terms of floor area alone.

As far as I'm concerned, this claim's refuted. Even if the Joelma Building fire is the largest by far (hard to believe, given the pictures of the building I'm finding), you can see above that the Tower Fires easily ranks with or even exceeds the others.
 
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EMH, why don't you create a new thread about comparing fire sizes? It is a common meme among truthers that the fires in the three towers weren't so large, and I haven't seen anybody trying to quantify what that means.
 
I dont really know what you guys are discussing in this thread, but keep in mind these buildings in Brazil are not steel frame structures like the skyscrapers in the US. They are all reinforced concrete.
 
I dont really know what you guys are discussing in this thread, but keep in mind these buildings in Brazil are not steel frame structures like the skyscrapers in the US. They are all reinforced concrete.

Truthers compare structures without regard to construction materials or building design. For most of them steel = concrete and traditional steel grid frames = monolithic reinforced concrete. They just don't care because either a) They are just plain ignorant or b) They hope that other people won't notice the difference (ie: they hope that other people are just plain ignorant).
 
:wide-eyed Uhhh... just what sort of life experiences have you been through, Lau Joe?

:covereyes

There was a whackjob in the 50s or 60s who campaigned to have cows wearing underwear because those great huge udders were actually breasts and they were an obscenity. I can't find anything about him in Google, but I'm notoriously weak in Google-Fu.
 
That's why I'm limiting myself to area combusted. It's not ideal, but it's the easiest to determine without having to introduce ambiguity via assumptions. Since the areas combusted have so far been only fractions the size of either of the main towers fires, there's been no need to get any more specific anyway. It's a reasonable assumption that any differences in fuel load between different buildings would be minimal compared to the differences in sizes of the WTC fires and the rest of them (the only exception being Broadgate Phase 8, which wasn't finished and therefore had no office contents and only construction items available to burn).

As I've mentioned before, I used to have a job delivering office supplies for the local IBM branch. The offices weren't in skyscapers, but in HUGE, sprawling one-story multi-purpose buildings. Looking down the hallway, you would see a line of office doors extending seemingly into infinity. It could take ten minutes to walk from one end to the other.

Most people don't thiink much about how much office supplies are required to keep such an operation running, but since I delivered them, I found out first-hand. I would estimate that each acre of office space had several tons of copy paper stored in the vicinity at any given time (we normally delivered them in increments of 1000 pounds, the largest quantity we could conveniently carry). Then there's all the loose paper in filing cabinets. Then there's the carpet. Then there's the computers, at least one in each office.

In a typical office, there is a LOT of fuel waiting to feed a fire. At IBM, the sprawled-out design would probably protect against a serious conflagration, but I could see how a similar design, but stacked one floor on top of another, could cause a much more serious problem. In a multi-story office building, the conditions are ideal for the fire to spread quickly out of control, almost as if it were designed for that very purpose.
 
There was a whackjob in the 50s or 60s who campaigned to have cows wearing underwear because those great huge udders were actually breasts and they were an obscenity. I can't find anything about him in Google, but I'm notoriously weak in Google-Fu.

I guess he had no problem looking at the male genitalia on the bulls...
 
EMH, why don't you create a new thread about comparing fire sizes?

Because I'm... umm... well... lazy... ?

:boxedin:

It is a common meme among truthers that the fires in the three towers weren't so large, and I haven't seen anybody trying to quantify what that means.

Yeah, true, which is why I was pointing the above out.

On the other hand, like I said earlier, this is merely a rough comparison of magnitude based on floor area alone. I know that floor area has some inherent limitations, not the least of which being that it's a 2 dimensional measure of a 3 dimensional space, so therefore I'm ignoring volume. But the above joke aside, I did indeed think about making this a longer term project. I won't lie though: The potential scope of that intimidates me. To really make a good comparison, I'd need the firefighting types here to school me on the characteristics that determine size, scope, intensity, etc., then I'd need to figure out how to find those figures, or how to reasonably estimate them given what is known. That's a larger undertaking than what I've been willing to do so far. And on top of that, there's something I noticed when looking over information about previous fires: When documentation exists, it's not uniform. And it tends to concentrate more on the fire fighting response, or isolated elements of the structural response (sort like the NIST report on the Twin Towers; that gave me a giggle). The NIST report, at least, had subreports detailing their presumptions regarding the fire modeling, but the few other ones that existed didn't have that level of detail. So I'm at a total loss as to how I'd determine fuel load, nevermind that I'd need to figure out the concepts, and then the math behind it.

None of this is impossible, but I can't lie: I don't know if I want to undertake a truly rigorous version of this task. Just comparing floor areas ended up being far more of an adventure than I anticipated, and I think that so far, it's been sufficient to refute this silly, utterly stupid notion that the WTC fires were somehow "dwarfed". But on the other hand, doing it would be instructive... I dunno. Anyone wanna bribe me into doing this? :D:p
 
EMH, I think you can take it easier! I don'*t think there is any need to go for perfection as long as the other side hasn't done a thing!

Most truthers who spread this meme of WTC fires not being so large are comparing two unknowns that they haven't even defined.

What you are doing here - suggesting one or more definitions of the quantities to be compared, and using the definitions to estimate values, is waaaay more than I have ever seen from any truther. So no matter how imperfect your results are, they beat every truther adversary that I have seen so far by default.

Also, as soon as you place this in a thread of its own and start with a well-crafted OP to define the scope, I think you will find that others will happily join in and provide criticism as well as research and material.

Finally: Your work here runs a much greater risk of being lost and wasted to obscurity than a dedicated thread would be. Much easier to find these things in well-tagged threads than hidden in threads that have a different topic.
 

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