General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[a_unique_person]

Don't ask me. I'm not the one claiming there were nationalists under the Ottomans that predated the European development of the nation state.

That nation state was only developed by the Europeans?

 

[a_unique_person]

The Nazi collaberator? He was post-colonialism.

He did attempt to be a British collaborator. They turned him down.

 

[Virus]

Leftists and Islamists set to launch new propaganda flotilla;

http://pajamasmedia.com/barryrubin/

According to Rubin, the Islamists are going to be dispersed among the useful idiots, in order to provoke violence and get some of the idiots killed.

Looks like they are having a lot of trouble getting things moving. With luck, they just pack it in and give up.

 

[Virus]

That nation state was only developed by the Europeans?

The Nation State was invented by the West and imitated by the rest. Just like every other idea and innovation in the last few centuries.

 

[a_unique_person]

Don't ask me. I'm not the one claiming there were nationalists under the Ottomans that predated the European development of the nation state.

The Autralian's tried that scam long ago. "Terra Nullius" is not legally valid.

 

[Stout]

Leftists and Islamists set to launch new propaganda flotilla;

Poor protesters, the whole world is against them. Even the U.N,, the organization that activist types cite as having issued a squillion resolutions against Israel is telling the flotilla " don't go".

So now we have sabotage, which is kind of strange. Last time I saw a video on underwater cutting/welding there was a crapload of bubbles involved. Surely an outfit that has secrecy and security at the forefront of their minds, (example, last week local UI Kevin Neish gave a newspaper interview from an "undisclosed location" ) must have been thinking about this sort of thing happening.

How paranoid are they ? well if this really is a comment from Gaza boat Juliano and not some provocateur, really paranoid.

Salamaat/ Shalom
why would we be surprised by Israeli sabotage? they are desperate to stop the flotilla and will apply all and any means, including premeditated murder as they did on the Mavi Marmara. in short, Israel believes it is the only country in the world above the law.
will Netanyahu, Barak and Lieberman suffer the same fate as Gadaffi? silly question, I apologize. unfortunately for Israel the stakes are much higher this time. would Barak dare order the assassination of Alice Walker?
the whole is watching.....lets see whether Bibi blinks.

Source

Just a little wild speculation on my part but I highly suspect that this "sabotage" may have been the work of the activists themselves, you know, getting cold feet as they see their public support erode.

More speculation, Neish has been claiming that he's going to be singled out for special treatment because he managed to smuggle out some pictures last year. This year, he's going to be detained again but claim he was tortured because he received a body cavity search from the guy with the pudgiest fingers in the IDF.

You gotta love politics

 

[WildCat]

Poor protesters, the whole world is against them. Even the U.N,, the organization that activist types cite as having issued a squillion resolutions against Israel is telling the flotilla " don't go".

They named one of the boats "Audacity of Hope", after Obama's book, and even Obama is telling Americans not to go and hinting they may be arrested for supporting a terrorist group, Hamas.

 

[IDB87]

goalposts are shifting again?

first I'm told there is no nationalism.

There was no Palestinian Nationalism before the 1940s, correct.

Then I'm told to counter the position of "no Nationalism" then "widespread nationalism" has to be established?

If there was indeed a sense of nationalism in Palestine as AUP claims (and I guess you as well) then yes, it does indeed have to be widespread as that is kind of the point of Nationalism.

and that self determination has to be "rampant"

Correct. This all ties together.

you do understand there was no nationalism in america before the revolution....well, none that I regard as "widespread" or "rampant".

The way the colonies were set up guaranteed a sense of Nationalism as they were all together independent of one another (although still tied to the Crown). Further grievances against the colonies as a whole inflamed this Nationalism and sparked a revolution. I'm not sure where you get your opinions,

but maybe we should start with the basics?

you need to define what you expect in the way of evidence instead of putting these handy qualifiers on them.

I will accept any evidence you have for this idea of Palestinian Nationalism. Do you have any?

 

[IDB87]

They named one of the boats "Audacity of Hope", after Obama's book, and even Obama is telling Americans not to go and hinting they may be arrested for supporting a terrorist group, Hamas.

Obama is obviously a Zionist.

 

[Stout]

They named one of the boats "Audacity of Hope", after Obama's book, and even Obama is telling Americans not to go and hinting they may be arrested for supporting a terrorist group, Hamas.

Interesting

Maybe they're planning on handing over the goods to an NGO to avoid that. I haven't heard anything similar from the Canadian government however they did use the supporting a terrorist organisation line to keep George Galloway out of the country.

 

[theprestige]

Self Determination is a right. Unless I specifically demand to be alive, I don't have a right to live? It took the Australian aboriginals years to realise what was going on, just because they did not fight back and kill civilians at first did not mean they had no right to self determination from the start.

You weren't claiming that Self Determination is a right. Just like nobody is denying that Self Determination is a right.

You were claiming that you could demonstrate specific instances of demands for self-determination, by specific people groups, during specific historical periods. You've been asked to support that claim with evidence. Telling us that Self Determination is a right is not evidence that people have been demanding it.

 

[bikerdruid]

well, "skeptic" understands there were....why don't you earbash him about evidence?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7296710&postcount=4641

here is one of his essays delegitimising palestinians......he accepts that there was arab nationalism....but of course palestinians must not be spoken of as really existing at all.

it is useless to ask skeptic to back up any of his outlandish claims.
he has no interest in truth.

 

[HoverBoarder]

So, The Fool, do you still think that an outside violent military solution is the best idea?

Not possible for me to still think it as I never thought it in the first place.

Maybe you didn't think it through, but that is definitely what you said:

I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution

No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Leftists and Islamists set to launch new propaganda flotilla;

http://pajamasmedia.com/barryrubin/

According to Rubin, the Islamists are going to be dispersed among the useful idiots, in order to provoke violence and get some of the idiots killed.

They named one of the boats "Audacity of Hope", after Obama's book, and even Obama is telling Americans not to go and hinting they may be arrested for supporting a terrorist group, Hamas.

It is such a terribly dumb idea for them to try to break a Naval Blockade as a way of "protest"...

 

[IDB87]

Maybe you didn't think it through, but that is definitely what you said:

Yeah, that's more or less The Fool's posting in a nutshell.

Except now he'll probably go on about how he said 'mostly' and how it changes everything.

Good luck!

 

[Stout]

It is such a terribly dumb idea for them to try to break a Naval Blockade as a way of "protest"...

Yes it is, especially when it turns out that the medical supplies that were on last years effort contained a great deal of expired medicines. I wonder what ever happened with those medicines, last time I heard their fate was in the hands of The Red Cross.

So it appears there's been some setbacks and the ships may not sail until early next week. Pity, I was waiting patiently, like someone in the front row of a Guns 'n Roses concert waiting for Axl to show up, but I guess I'll just have to cool my heels.

At least the activists won't have to slip into their Depends today.

 

[The Fool]

Maybe you didn't think it through, but that is definitely what you said:

no its not....sorry. You are playing word substitution...

My words...."I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution" and "No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN."

your substitution... "an outside violent military solution is the best idea"



now pay close attention to the main point of your substitutions that don't fit....the bits about "violent" and "best" and the linking of the two.

 

[Virus]

It is such a terribly dumb idea for them to try to break a Naval Blockade as a way of "protest"...

I think the Islamists are trying to get an American or European killed in order to create an international diplomatic incident. It's in line with the Palestinians recent tactic of trying to get Western powers to act against Israel.

 

[JohnnyG]

no its not....sorry. You are playing word substitution...

My words...."I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution" and "No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN."

your substitution... "an outside violent military solution is the best idea"



now pay close attention to the main point of your substitutions that don't fit....the bits about "violent" and "best" and the linking of the two.

So you advocate a non-violent, "imposed solution" with "Military support under the UN" but know that it is not the best idea.
Clear as mud.

 

[A'isha]

no its not....sorry. You are playing word substitution...

My words...."I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution" and "No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN."

your substitution... "an outside violent military solution is the best idea"



now pay close attention to the main point of your substitutions that don't fit....the bits about "violent" and "best" and the linking of the two.

So, you want external forces to impose a solution (ie, force it, whether the recipients want it or not), backed up by military support to ensure that this unwanted solution is, indeed, forced upon those unwilling recipients. How, exactly, is this not a "violent military solution"? Do you imagine that this UN-led military will force this "externally-led imposed solution" on both Israel and the Palestinians without violence?

And if it's not the best solution in your mind, why do you think this obviously violent military solution should be carried out with some degree of immanency, as implied by your use of the words "it is time"?